Jesus and Eddie: someone has to say it

Evergreen

I think Eddie stated his beliefs in a recent interview...

"Is there one book that you have read that has been life-changing for you?
Jennifer Coppertino, New York

One that jumps to mind is Cat’s Cradle by Kurt Vonnegut. He talks about being a humanist, about it being a little different from being an atheist, which had a profound effect on me. I ended up reading pretty much everything he wrote after that, two, three, four, five times. The only other author who’s had a similar effect has been Charles Bukowski, who opens your eyes to the fact that there’s beauty in everybody’s life. The life of someone on the lowest rung of the ladder is as colourful and meaningful, if not more, as some character in an F Scott Fitzgerald novel. So it makes you realize that we are all individuals and we all have something going on that is worthy of introspection and respect."

and


"You’ve been lined with David Lynch’s Transcendental Meditation movement; you’ve worn an Aleister Crowley t-shirt and you’ve stated that you’re an atheist. What do you personally believe in and how did you get there?
Stephan Rott, Germany

Well it changes! And I think we have to be flexible. Any belief system that is inflexible, closed off to other belief systems, is profoundly unhealthy. I also think that if you look at life as a long line of evolutionary changes that started billions of years ago, from little things crawling in the mud, and the you realise where we’ve got to now, that is a remarkable set of circumstances. There is more magic in that, for me, than someone creating the planet in six days and taking a day off. When you realize how long humanity has taken to get to this point, it makes you respect another person’s life in a deeper and broader sense. I wouldn’t’ think of killing anybody because their lineage goes back to the primordial seas, not because there’s some eye in the sky, looking out for how many commandments you’re going to break."

Gern Blansten

Evergreen85024 wrote:

I think Eddie stated his beliefs in a recent interview...

"Is there one book that you have read that has been life-changing for you?
Jennifer Coppertino, New York

One that jumps to mind is Cat’s Cradle by Kurt Vonnegut. He talks about being a humanist, about it being a little different from being an atheist, which had a profound effect on me. I ended up reading pretty much everything he wrote after that, two, three, four, five times. The only other author who’s had a similar effect has been Charles Bukowski, who opens your eyes to the fact that there’s beauty in everybody’s life. The life of someone on the lowest rung of the ladder is as colourful and meaningful, if not more, as some character in an F Scott Fitzgerald novel. So it makes you realize that we are all individuals and we all have something going on that is worthy of introspection and respect."

and


"You’ve been lined with David Lynch’s Transcendental Meditation movement; you’ve worn an Aleister Crowley t-shirt and you’ve stated that you’re an atheist. What do you personally believe in and how did you get there?
Stephan Rott, Germany

Well it changes! And I think we have to be flexible. Any belief system that is inflexible, closed off to other belief systems, is profoundly unhealthy. I also think that if you look at life as a long line of evolutionary changes that started billions of years ago, from little things crawling in the mud, and the you realise where we’ve got to now, that is a remarkable set of circumstances. There is more magic in that, for me, than someone creating the planet in six days and taking a day off. When you realize how long humanity has taken to get to this point, it makes you respect another person’s life in a deeper and broader sense. I wouldn’t’ think of killing anybody because their lineage goes back to the primordial seas, not because there’s some eye in the sky, looking out for how many commandments you’re going to break."

wow....good stuff!

fisttothejaw

Wow. I'm probably an idiot for entering this fray, but...

These are the kinds of discussions that really energize me. First off, I am a person who believes in God, and I am a follower of Jesus. Let's get that out of the way.

With that said, though, there are a number of areas where I find myself embarrassed and at odds with those who represent my faith. The belief in God is a very mysterious prospect, and most attempts to define it, or Him, fall very short. As has been said before, the central theme, though, where Christ is concerned, is love.

His followers, however, have been sidetracked by moral crusades, political involvement, and scientific debate. I can not understand why we would spend so much time trying to defend a literal 6-day creation theory, or the word "God" in the pledge of allegiance, when there is so much pain, poverty, crime, war and general injustice to battle against. I wish we would use our voices to comfort scared teenage mothers, rather than shouting judgements at them when they enter an abortion clinic. I wish we would focus our efforts on living peacefully with the Muslim world, rather than confusing military aggression with "taking the right side" in some bizarre holy war.

But we don't. And that's why the followers of Christ are viewed as small, narrow-minded people who are obsessed with a set of rules and precepts - not as a group of people who seek to better their world with acts and words of kindness. That's what we should be.

Childish? Maybe. But I had something when I was a child... and adulthood has been trying to take it from me, year by year. I wouldn't mind having it back.

And back to the topic of Pearl Jam, I know Ed and I don't see everything (maybe anything) the same way from a faith standpoint. But in so many ways, I find common ground in his lyrics. And I can't say the same thing about a lot of artists who DO profess belief in Jesus. My soul resonates with truth, and that's what I get from Pearl Jam. It may not always be MY truth, but I hear truth nonetheless. I feel the same way about P. Townshend, J. Lennon, and a host of others -

So, in closing... "leave your hatred on the cross," because "it can't be said enough, all you need is love."

Peace.

satansbed

fisttothejaw wrote:

Wow. I'm probably an idiot for entering this fray, but...

These are the kinds of discussions that really energize me. First off, I am a person who believes in God, and I am a follower of Jesus. Let's get that out of the way.

With that said, though, there are a number of areas where I find myself embarrassed and at odds with those who represent my faith. The belief in God is a very mysterious prospect, and most attempts to define it, or Him, fall very short. As has been said before, the central theme, though, where Christ is concerned, is love.

His followers, however, have been sidetracked by moral crusades, political involvement, and scientific debate. I can not understand why we would spend so much time trying to defend a literal 6-day creation theory, or the word "God" in the pledge of allegiance, when there is so much pain, poverty, crime, war and general injustice to battle against. I wish we would use our voices to comfort scared teenage mothers, rather than shouting judgements at them when they enter an abortion clinic. I wish we would focus our efforts on living peacefully with the Muslim world, rather than confusing military aggression with "taking the right side" in some bizarre holy war.

But we don't. And that's why the followers of Christ are viewed as small, narrow-minded people who are obsessed with a set of rules and precepts - not as a group of people who seek to better their world with acts and words of kindness. That's what we should be.

Childish? Maybe. But I had something when I was a child... and adulthood has been trying to take it from me, year by year. I wouldn't mind having it back.

And back to the topic of Pearl Jam, I know Ed and I don't see everything (maybe anything) the same way from a faith standpoint. But in so many ways, I find common ground in his lyrics. And I can't say the same thing about a lot of artists who DO profess belief in Jesus. My soul resonates with truth, and that's what I get from Pearl Jam. It may not always be MY truth, but I hear truth nonetheless. I feel the same way about P. Townshend, J. Lennon, and a host of others -

So, in closing... "leave your hatred on the cross," because "it can't be said enough, all you need is love."

Peace.

now heres someone who believes in god that i can agree with

about time two

fisttothejaw

...and I should clarify - not ALL modern-day Christians are "shouting judgements," supporting the war, and ignoring poverty. When I look at my friends, my church, and those I respect - while I still always see areas where we really need to change, I feel good about the overall direction we're trying to take, putting our faith into positive action. And I know there are a lot of believers who are really working hard for issues of social justice. I don't mean to lump everybody into some negative category. It's just what I see in a lot of the current fundamental movements, and especially where some of the "squeakier wheels" are concerned...

there. I clarified.

Bystander84

the problem with religion is the people who are the face of them... I am a Catholic, but Im really ashamed of what the Pope did some years ago by covering what the founder of the Legionarios de Cristo was doing (while he wasnt a pope yet)... and im also ashamed and sad of what the church did during the inquisition... but it is my faith in Jesus what keeps me on this road... it is faith what matters... and I really hope Ed finds faith someday...

Devote Myself

fisttothejaw wrote:

Wow. I'm probably an idiot for entering this fray, but...

These are the kinds of discussions that really energize me. First off, I am a person who believes in God, and I am a follower of Jesus. Let's get that out of the way.

With that said, though, there are a number of areas where I find myself embarrassed and at odds with those who represent my faith. The belief in God is a very mysterious prospect, and most attempts to define it, or Him, fall very short. As has been said before, the central theme, though, where Christ is concerned, is love.

His followers, however, have been sidetracked by moral crusades, political involvement, and scientific debate. I can not understand why we would spend so much time trying to defend a literal 6-day creation theory, or the word "God" in the pledge of allegiance, when there is so much pain, poverty, crime, war and general injustice to battle against. I wish we would use our voices to comfort scared teenage mothers, rather than shouting judgements at them when they enter an abortion clinic. I wish we would focus our efforts on living peacefully with the Muslim world, rather than confusing military aggression with "taking the right side" in some bizarre holy war.

But we don't. And that's why the followers of Christ are viewed as small, narrow-minded people who are obsessed with a set of rules and precepts - not as a group of people who seek to better their world with acts and words of kindness. That's what we should be.

Childish? Maybe. But I had something when I was a child... and adulthood has been trying to take it from me, year by year. I wouldn't mind having it back.

And back to the topic of Pearl Jam, I know Ed and I don't see everything (maybe anything) the same way from a faith standpoint. But in so many ways, I find common ground in his lyrics. And I can't say the same thing about a lot of artists who DO profess belief in Jesus. My soul resonates with truth, and that's what I get from Pearl Jam. It may not always be MY truth, but I hear truth nonetheless. I feel the same way about P. Townshend, J. Lennon, and a host of others -

So, in closing... "leave your hatred on the cross," because "it can't be said enough, all you need is love."

Peace.

I'm glad you did enter the fray!!!
Well said.

I just saw them in Chicago night 1(8/23/09) and Eddie made a remark about how Bad Religion was still great and religion was still bad. I still think he and they (meaning other PJ members) believe in Love and therefore believe in God (without realizing it maybe b/c God is love), but I think they are afraid of being labeled as belonging to a certain religion. And as someone else had posted, he stated himself that his views are always changing.

I love the Fixer. Again, I can hear God-like symbolism in the lyrics, but I guess I always look for it! Very positive. Can't wait to hear the rest of the album.

satansbed

Devote Myself wrote:

fisttothejaw wrote:

Wow. I'm probably an idiot for entering this fray, but...

These are the kinds of discussions that really energize me. First off, I am a person who believes in God, and I am a follower of Jesus. Let's get that out of the way.

With that said, though, there are a number of areas where I find myself embarrassed and at odds with those who represent my faith. The belief in God is a very mysterious prospect, and most attempts to define it, or Him, fall very short. As has been said before, the central theme, though, where Christ is concerned, is love.

His followers, however, have been sidetracked by moral crusades, political involvement, and scientific debate. I can not understand why we would spend so much time trying to defend a literal 6-day creation theory, or the word "God" in the pledge of allegiance, when there is so much pain, poverty, crime, war and general injustice to battle against. I wish we would use our voices to comfort scared teenage mothers, rather than shouting judgements at them when they enter an abortion clinic. I wish we would focus our efforts on living peacefully with the Muslim world, rather than confusing military aggression with "taking the right side" in some bizarre holy war.

But we don't. And that's why the followers of Christ are viewed as small, narrow-minded people who are obsessed with a set of rules and precepts - not as a group of people who seek to better their world with acts and words of kindness. That's what we should be.

Childish? Maybe. But I had something when I was a child... and adulthood has been trying to take it from me, year by year. I wouldn't mind having it back.

And back to the topic of Pearl Jam, I know Ed and I don't see everything (maybe anything) the same way from a faith standpoint. But in so many ways, I find common ground in his lyrics. And I can't say the same thing about a lot of artists who DO profess belief in Jesus. My soul resonates with truth, and that's what I get from Pearl Jam. It may not always be MY truth, but I hear truth nonetheless. I feel the same way about P. Townshend, J. Lennon, and a host of others -

So, in closing... "leave your hatred on the cross," because "it can't be said enough, all you need is love."

Peace.

I'm glad you did enter the fray!!!
Well said.

I just saw them in Chicago night 1(8/23/09) and Eddie made a remark about how Bad Religion was still great and religion was still bad. I still think he and they (meaning other PJ members) believe in Love and therefore believe in God (without realizing it maybe b/c God is love), but I think they are afraid of being labeled as belonging to a certain religion. And as someone else had posted, he stated himself that his views are always changing.

I love the Fixer. Again, I can hear God-like symbolism in the lyrics, but I guess I always look for it! Very positive. Can't wait to hear the rest of the album.

i dont think there afraid of anything like that i just think they dont believe, and you can be positive with out god, it works for me

Gern Blansten

Agreed,..I'm sorry but that post is ridiculous

OffMeGoes

october22 wrote:

might be slightly off topic and i'm not trying to be a dick but if ed believed in jesus ("christ", that is) i'd lose a lot of respect for him. i don't have time to get involved in this thread too deeply but i feel bad for guys like the o.p.

you seem like a decent dude who's not trying to use his religion to hurt anyone but it's sad to see an adult believe in children's stories for comfort in a confusing world.

if it brings you comfort, that's nice. i just hope there aren't any kids involved in or being subjected to this belief system because there is an entire universe of knowledge they won't be privy to. it is a sad thing for any human being to be born into such an exciting time of scientific discovery only to have it brainwashed away from them while they're still not of mind to see through it.

atheism is the only conclusion at this point and to deny that, is to deny the progress we've made as a species in the last few hundred years (or several million depending how you look at it).

Its not sad to be subjected to the designated teachings of a Christian upbringing...it is child abuse. To tell a kid not to question; to tell a kid that it is a virtue to suspend critical thinking and to suspend the process of seeking truth through evidence is literally child abuse. A child's brain, for evolutionary need and process, is so impressionable that it believes everything that is taught to it. This malleability of what the brain will retain shows up in obvious ways.....like the belief that to sacrifice a goat will allow a great crop yield...a young brain cannot tell the difference between good advice and bad advice until it can test it. So, this manifests itself with the arrogance and deep seeded belief in the 'gut feeling' that causes so much hatred in this country. Faith.....faith.....faith.....it is the complete opposite of truth. It is the lack of need to back anything up or question anything. If the person designated as the head of the clan says it is true, it has to be....and that is extremism at the purist level. Religious Extremism is and always has been the most destructive force on this planet....whether Christian or Islamic or any other religion. If you believe God is guiding you and that you are fulfilling god's will, you have an license to ignorance and a license to cause as much death and suffering as we have witnessed over the history of man. Extreme religion is just one of many sicknesses that cause this, but it is the most consistent and the one still handled with white gloves. You can't touch it! I am a huge fan of Richard Dawkins and intelligence. The quest of the scientist is to move closer and closer to the truth of the physical world.....Religion has a quest to defend the monopoly they have on what they claim is the entire truth, already figured out. Religion is racism, it has infected our nation, it has been a catalyst for ignorance and you cannot seperate the extremists from the people who have the best intentions and who do live honorable, beautiful lives. This is a weakest link theory/thought, and the people that manipulate and seize power and wealth are protected by the entire system...you cannot seperate them...the symptoms or illnesses are all stemming from a system that is the sickness. The people that cause all the suffering are all of those associated, not just those giving commands; because anyone in that system protects those that "give religion a bad name" by their own the lack of questioning and self-inspection. Funny that evolution (a scientific theory - and the mere fact that some people will say its not proven and called a theory is amazing and a whole other topic) is brought up as something that has been forced down some peoples throats.....Christianity has evolved along the same exact lines as the theory extends. Christianity has only survived through its own incredible evolution that has a timeline, a history line and a purpose to the changes. Anyway...Ill step off my soap box for a while. Just consider how quickly some of you want to react and say that I am being abusive or attacking, but when you break down what is said on the two sides, the religion foundational side gets to say basically the same things, but are just not used to ever experiencing a pushback. That is why so many reactions to what I right is usually "you are part of the problem". It is almost as if the mere fact of me questioning what they believe is an offense, let alone the content...the content is pure blasphemy! And if you have followed this at all, you will get what I mean.

You dont have to worry about Eddie believing in god or Jesus. I am shocked that anyone can take his lyrics for anything other than disdainful expressions for the pain and abuse caused by a cancerous system....and if you think the lyrics are open to interpretation, then dont use them for your evidence.....just look to his direct quotes on the subject. I have heard him probably 5-6 times in concerts say "I dont believe in god"..........the last time in nashville. (I was in the front row and I heard it as clear as day...plus I keep replaying my "memory" of the show and hear it loud and clear each time) Even on the Live at the Garden show, Eddie says something like "belief in something bigger" He later comes back and tries to clarify it and stumbles by saying (non-verbatum) "I said belief is something bigger...I meant that it will all work out"

fisttothejaw

Well, again - I'm probably an idiot for continuing to stay within the fray... ha ha... but I felt the need to respond to this last post -

One of the things I hear time and time again is that we (believers) are intolerant, and that we don't allow for anyone else to have a belief system. And you know what? By and large, I think the religious community has, unfortunately, earned that tag. And vedderwt, I do agree with you that extremism can a very dangerous thing. Fundamentalists often feel so driven to be completely air-tight in their doctrine, and it causes them to ignore the grey area that humanity generally occupies. And when you follow someone who taught in stories, parables, and symbols, there's quite a bit of grey area that must be accounted for!

But, Vedderwt, you seem to be cautioning against labeling your own post as an "attack," and I have to admit that it's hard not to. When you refer to raising a child in a Christian upbringing as "child abuse," call faith the "complete opposite of truth," and indicate that belief in God is a "license to ignorance and... to cause...death and suffering," then you are laboring under an extremism of your own. While I understand that many generations of Christians have done and spoken hideous things, often in the name of their faith, surely you can dig deeply enough to understand that abuse, pain, avarice, torture - those things are not our core values. And when you point your guns at extremism, I'm right there with you. But when you label all people of faith as ignorant, abusive, manipulative, etc, then your bullets are hitting me. I kept reading your post thinking, "well, vedderwt is not necessarily talking about ME. These are extremists." But then I read this line: "you cannot seperate (sic) the extremists from the people who have the best intentions and who do live honorable, beautiful lives. This is a weakest link theory/thought, and the people that manipulate and seize power and wealth are protected by the entire system...you cannot seperate (sic) them." And then I realized, "shit, vedderwt is talking about me!"

As with anyone who is going to voice an opinion with great passion, you must consider the sweep of your generalizations. To assume that, because I am a believer who was raised by Christian parents, I have never experienced "questioning or self-inspection" - well, you couldn't be more wrong!! I am an extremely introspective, questioning person, and I've held my own belief system up to a harsh light, time and time again. I have had seasons (long ones!) where I've wondered whether there even is a God at all, and if I'm nuts for basing my life's decisions on such a mad concept. I've been embarrassed and offended by the positions taken by many high-profile Christians, and I've often wondered if I wanted to be associated with them. And not to be dramatic, but I've stood at the mass grave inside a concentration camp, filled mainly with the bodies of Jews and homosexuals, and deeply lamented the intolerance my fellow Christians have shown both those people groups. But at the end of my questions, fights, discussions, tears, and whiskey bottles, I have decided to believe in God and follow Jesus. Because I have read his teachings, I have studied his life, and I realize that he is not a fat, suit-wearing, Republican preacher with a wallet full of money and his hand on the ass of a congressman. He is the embodiment of love and understanding. I do not follow the "Christian right" like a lemming, mind you. I believe in God, and I follow Jesus. And I have to say, knowing what it's taken me, knowing the tremendous "pushback" I've experienced (both inside and outside of my own soul and mind), and then to be lumped into the category of the ignorant and the arrogant - well, it's hard not to find that a little insulting, frankly. I truly don't mind you questioning what I believe. I've done that myself time and time again!

With all of that said, fight on. Continue to express your dissatisfaction with the current status quo, as far as extremism is concerned. I think people of faith need to hear and absorb criticism, as the "pushback" is a vital part of their own refinement. And we must seek to heal the wounds our cause has caused. But all I ask is that you find a place in your heart to respect those who have passionately sought, passionately questioned, but who passionately believe.

Peace.

Devote Myself

Fisttothejaw, again, you've said all that I've thought but would never be able to put into words as clearly or as well. Thanks so much. Too add anything else would be redundant!

Devote Myself

satansbed wrote:

Devote Myself wrote:

fisttothejaw wrote:

Wow. I'm probably an idiot for entering this fray, but...

These are the kinds of discussions that really energize me. First off, I am a person who believes in God, and I am a follower of Jesus. Let's get that out of the way.

With that said, though, there are a number of areas where I find myself embarrassed and at odds with those who represent my faith. The belief in God is a very mysterious prospect, and most attempts to define it, or Him, fall very short. As has been said before, the central theme, though, where Christ is concerned, is love.

His followers, however, have been sidetracked by moral crusades, political involvement, and scientific debate. I can not understand why we would spend so much time trying to defend a literal 6-day creation theory, or the word "God" in the pledge of allegiance, when there is so much pain, poverty, crime, war and general injustice to battle against. I wish we would use our voices to comfort scared teenage mothers, rather than shouting judgements at them when they enter an abortion clinic. I wish we would focus our efforts on living peacefully with the Muslim world, rather than confusing military aggression with "taking the right side" in some bizarre holy war.

But we don't. And that's why the followers of Christ are viewed as small, narrow-minded people who are obsessed with a set of rules and precepts - not as a group of people who seek to better their world with acts and words of kindness. That's what we should be.

Childish? Maybe. But I had something when I was a child... and adulthood has been trying to take it from me, year by year. I wouldn't mind having it back.

And back to the topic of Pearl Jam, I know Ed and I don't see everything (maybe anything) the same way from a faith standpoint. But in so many ways, I find common ground in his lyrics. And I can't say the same thing about a lot of artists who DO profess belief in Jesus. My soul resonates with truth, and that's what I get from Pearl Jam. It may not always be MY truth, but I hear truth nonetheless. I feel the same way about P. Townshend, J. Lennon, and a host of others -

So, in closing... "leave your hatred on the cross," because "it can't be said enough, all you need is love."

Peace.

I'm glad you did enter the fray!!!
Well said.

I just saw them in Chicago night 1(8/23/09) and Eddie made a remark about how Bad Religion was still great and religion was still bad. I still think he and they (meaning other PJ members) believe in Love and therefore believe in God (without realizing it maybe b/c God is love), but I think they are afraid of being labeled as belonging to a certain religion. And as someone else had posted, he stated himself that his views are always changing.

I love the Fixer. Again, I can hear God-like symbolism in the lyrics, but I guess I always look for it! Very positive. Can't wait to hear the rest of the album.

i dont think there afraid of anything like that i just think they dont believe, and you can be positive with out god, it works for me

I know you can be positive without believing in God. I didn't mean to suggest that you can't. But I think God IS the goodness in the world. God IS love. Whether you choose to believe in God or not doesn't negate His existence. And as far as the Fixer reference, it just reminds me of Jesus, because to me He is the Fixer! When things are broken, He fixes them. When things are lost, he fights to get them back again. When things are old, he makes them new. Its just how I like to interpret it. And I'm not saying that everyone else has to interpret it that way because my opinion is the only right one ! Lets just be clear about that! lol (

Gern Blansten

I don't think he fixes anything...it seems to me that a lot of things are fucked up and he doesn't do a damn thing about it

It's nice that you have such a positive view I guess but damned dude if you think jesus has anything to do with anything you're nuts

oh and just because YOU believe in god doesn't prove his existence....ya know?

theoceansmademe

Jumping back into this one.

A great book I just finished is by William Lobdell titled: Losing My Religion: How I Lost My Faith Reporting on Religion in America-and Found Unexpected Peace.

The book is a memoir, following his life from a editor of a small paper, to born again christian, to faith reporter for the LA Times, and finishing with how he became an atheist.

His coverage of the Catholic sex scandal was the breaking point in his belief in a god.

At one point he was covering a case in Alaska, where 1 priest has raped well over 30 boys. On the stand is a high member of the Catholic church. He is asked if a priest within the church had come to him in confidence and said he cut of the head of an 8 year old girl and buried her in the woods would he give the information which the priest had shared in order to locate the body of the girl?

His response was NO.

The Catholic church is so F*cked up.

Here's a quote from Lobdell's book:
Of course, there is a simpler, more elegant explanation, more elegant, though it’s deeply dispiriting. The most logical answer to why God won’t heal amputees is that either God doesn’t care or doesn’t exist. This would also explain the lack of miraculous healings for people with Lou Gehrig’s Disease, long-term quadriplegics, untreated AIDS patients, those with Parkinson’s Disease, mental retardation, Down’s Syndrome, and a host of other maladies.

Finally to agree with another post you have to be an idiot to find any kernel of belief in god or religion in Ed's lyrics:

Everyone is practicing,...
But this world's an accident.
I was the fool because I thought

I thought the world
Turns out the world thought me
It's all the other way round
We're upside down

Gern Blansten

thanks for the recommendation...looks like a good book

If you haven't read "Losing Faith in Faith" or "Godless" by Dan Barker I would recommend those to you....he was an evangelist turned atheist and now heads the Freedom from Religion Foundation www.ffrf.org

Ed's lyrics contain all kinds of those references

Sad
Faithful
Marker in the Sand

just to name a few

theoceansmademe

Gern Blansten wrote:

thanks for the recommendation...looks like a good book

If you haven't read "Losing Faith in Faith" or "Godless" by Dan Barker I would recommend those to you....he was an evangelist turned atheist and now heads the Freedom from Religion Foundation http://www.ffrf.org

Ed's lyrics contain all kinds of those references

Sad
Faithful
Marker in the Sand

just to name a few

Haven't read those too but will put them in my que, thanks.

Still making my way through the Informant.

Love Faithful, NOBODY HEARS IT ECHOS!

OffMeGoes

fisttothejaw wrote:

Well, again - I'm probably an idiot for continuing to stay within the fray... ha ha... but I felt the need to respond to this last post -

One of the things I hear time and time again is that we (believers) are intolerant, and that we don't allow for anyone else to have a belief system. And you know what? By and large, I think the religious community has, unfortunately, earned that tag. And vedderwt, I do agree with you that extremism can a very dangerous thing. Fundamentalists often feel so driven to be completely air-tight in their doctrine, and it causes them to ignore the grey area that humanity generally occupies. And when you follow someone who taught in stories, parables, and symbols, there's quite a bit of grey area that must be accounted for!

But, Vedderwt, you seem to be cautioning against labeling your own post as an "attack," and I have to admit that it's hard not to. When you refer to raising a child in a Christian upbringing as "child abuse," call faith the "complete opposite of truth," and indicate that belief in God is a "license to ignorance and... to cause...death and suffering," then you are laboring under an extremism of your own. While I understand that many generations of Christians have done and spoken hideous things, often in the name of their faith, surely you can dig deeply enough to understand that abuse, pain, avarice, torture - those things are not our core values. And when you point your guns at extremism, I'm right there with you. But when you label all people of faith as ignorant, abusive, manipulative, etc, then your bullets are hitting me. I kept reading your post thinking, "well, vedderwt is not necessarily talking about ME. These are extremists." But then I read this line: "you cannot seperate (sic) the extremists from the people who have the best intentions and who do live honorable, beautiful lives. This is a weakest link theory/thought, and the people that manipulate and seize power and wealth are protected by the entire system...you cannot seperate (sic) them." And then I realized, "shit, vedderwt is talking about me!"

As with anyone who is going to voice an opinion with great passion, you must consider the sweep of your generalizations. To assume that, because I am a believer who was raised by Christian parents, I have never experienced "questioning or self-inspection" - well, you couldn't be more wrong!! I am an extremely introspective, questioning person, and I've held my own belief system up to a harsh light, time and time again. I have had seasons (long ones!) where I've wondered whether there even is a God at all, and if I'm nuts for basing my life's decisions on such a mad concept. I've been embarrassed and offended by the positions taken by many high-profile Christians, and I've often wondered if I wanted to be associated with them. And not to be dramatic, but I've stood at the mass grave inside a concentration camp, filled mainly with the bodies of Jews and homosexuals, and deeply lamented the intolerance my fellow Christians have shown both those people groups. But at the end of my questions, fights, discussions, tears, and whiskey bottles, I have decided to believe in God and follow Jesus. Because I have read his teachings, I have studied his life, and I realize that he is not a fat, suit-wearing, Republican preacher with a wallet full of money and his hand on the ass of a congressman. He is the embodiment of love and understanding. I do not follow the "Christian right" like a lemming, mind you. I believe in God, and I follow Jesus. And I have to say, knowing what it's taken me, knowing the tremendous "pushback" I've experienced (both inside and outside of my own soul and mind), and then to be lumped into the category of the ignorant and the arrogant - well, it's hard not to find that a little insulting, frankly. I truly don't mind you questioning what I believe. I've done that myself time and time again!

With all of that said, fight on. Continue to express your dissatisfaction with the current status quo, as far as extremism is concerned. I think people of faith need to hear and absorb criticism, as the "pushback" is a vital part of their own refinement. And we must seek to heal the wounds our cause has caused. But all I ask is that you find a place in your heart to respect those who have passionately sought, passionately questioned, but who passionately believe.

Peace.

markin ball

I am so okay with not knowing why we are here, how we got here or where we might go. I am so okay with thinking that when I die, I'm dead, that's it. I do not know that I have a soul, and I am so okay with that. We have only scratched the surface with human thought and technology and I'm sure that our scientific thinking about some of these big questions will develop and change significantly over time. Humans may never know the real answers and I find that beautiful. There is no logical explanation for the existence of a god or intelligent designer that cannot be overturned by the same logic. And if you find comfort, peace, solace or warmth in god or spiritualty, I am okay with that, too, as long as it is respectful, understanding and loving.

Gern Blansten

MS7509 wrote:

I am so okay with not knowing why we are here, how we got here or where we might go. I am so okay with thinking that when I die, I'm dead, that's it. I do not know that I have a soul, and I am so okay with that. We have only scratched the surface with human thought and technology and I'm sure that our scientific thinking about some of these big questions will develop and change significantly over time. Humans may never know the real answers and I find that beautiful. There is no logical explanation for the existence of a god or intelligent designer that cannot be overturned by the same logic. And if you find comfort, peace, solace or warmth in god or spiritualty, I am okay with that, too, as long as it is respectful, understanding and loving.

agreed but your last sentence is where the problem lies...I think it is well proven that many religious people can't live within those parameters....I used to just keep my mouth shut but I'm convinced that we need to get rid of religion before we will ever have world peace

Gotta say it now
Better loud
Than too late

Alsa

Seek My Part wrote:

Why does everything have to be religious? Let me ask it again, why does everything have to be religious? Religion is an absolute. People who say they are one religion or another have just reached the point of never questioning anything or themselves again. They have already hit the end of the journey and have said that I am "this" or I am "that," and they want everyone else in the world to make a decision right now or else. They have to know. For what reason do they have to know. If it is out of curiosity than ok, but it never is. It is about "Are you with me or are you not?" The funny thing that with almost every religion (especially Christianity) the basis for that religion is accepting everyone and love. Religion should be personal and the whole community aspect of it causes people to feel a need to categorize themselves. Well, I personally think that deep down inside, Eddie and the rest of PJ are still on the journey. They have accepted some things as true in their minds, but have not made any absolute answers and have not categorized themselves. They respect the process of continuously added to their ideas of religion, spirituality, etc. What I think they do know for sure is that typical religious people are so set in their ways that they never evolve and are now so far behind reality . Yet, they accept you and don't categorize you. However, they are categorized for that as atheists or ant-religious. Well, if continuing to better yourself and to follow love and to never reach an absolute ending truth is anti-religious then "LETS' CATEGORIZE THEM AS ANTI-RELIGIOUS" and I be the first one to join them. Anti-religion is the new religion and we don't need anyone praying for us. Why don't you do something that is harder then praying for us and just accept us and try to challenge yourself to evolve.

Religious people are so afraid about how the world will end and if they are ready, when in fact they are the ones who may cause the world to end.

You couldnt have described things better mate, and Ill join the anti-religion group too ;p

Ms. Haiku

Well, it's interesting - if you had a chance to talk with a bandmember what would the first question be? Maybe the OPs would be questions about self-identity, maybe mine would be about the floating feeling in Given to Fly. There is so much beauty, and on the flipside so much pain within the world. I've let go trying to know so many answers that have no relevance to my life, even though Pearl Jam has affected my life incredibly. I mean I don't buy records the day they come out for any other artist Also, there was definitely a time when I would have wanted the time to talk on deeper issues with the bandmembers. It's just gone.

Over the years the more I wanted to know about the bandmembers became more and more relevant to the words and music of the songs, the guts and glory of Pearl Jam, and possibly less about the path to those songs. After a good concert I would want to know more about them, more about how they think etc, but after my first excellent PJ concert, which was about 12 years into PJ fandom, I wanted to know when I could see them again Ohhhhwheeeee I have a one-track mind, now.

The Camaros Hood

october22 wrote:

walkthehemisphere wrote:

But the cells were not happy just being cells, so they decided to become plants, trees, fish, animals and even people. I just want people to realize that the atheist view of creation sounds as much of a fairy tale as my belief in a supreme God who designed and created everything for a reason and purpose.

Again, to repeat, I think you're probably a well meaning guy. However, I have zero respect for your ideas or belief system because I believe you are an adult and not a child. Therefor, I must point out the absurdities of your ignorant and simple wish-thinking. I don't have all night to do so and there are much smarter men then I who've been writing rebuttals to the weak-minded for thousands of years on this topic so I'll just mention a few things that come to mind.

Firstly, in response to your quote above, cells were not unhappy being cells and so just "decided to become plants". This shows your ignorance towards science. You are probably one of those creationists who think science claims we "came from monkeys" (which is not what evolution claims at all). One of the beautiful facts of my argument is that I've studied yours and I can use your claims against you. You, however (and most of your ilk) are so sadly ignorant (a default position you would have to be in to allow yourself to be subjected to irrational belief) that you have no idea what you are arguing against. This is the first sign of the unprepared, anti-intellectual.

And so I ask you, what is more plausible; that single cells, through the use of DNA and RNA by way of the recombination of code understood in four parts A,T,C and G, EVOLVED over millions of years into other, more complex organisms or that a god, an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent being created ONE man and didn't have the fucking foresight to realize he would get LONELY and thus created him a woman to keep him company? So this all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful god's first plan was a fucking failure?

"Oh shit! I put this ONE guy in a garden with all this fruit and knowledge and other cool animals for him to hang out with but I never REALIZED he might get lonely! No, sweat, I'm god. I'll just take a rib and create a 'woman' for him to hang out with. I'm sure that will go well! What?! They ate the fucking fruit?! Shit! Didn't see that coming. But maybe I should have because after-all, I did give them free-will! Dammit, I knew that was going to bite me in the ass. Well, you know what, now you two are banned, that's right, get the fuck out. You've ruined it for everyone. What, the snake (aka Devil) made you do it? Hmmm, that's odd because the Devil is Lucifer, a soul I banished and sent to Hell, but wait a minute; if you two are the first souls I've created, then how the hell (pardon me) can there have been the life lived and then condemned of Lucifer's in the first place?!! Arg! This whole universe (although I never bothered to mention anything about a universe in the subsequent writings of the profits) I've created get's soooo dammed confusing sometimes!! And wait a minute. Bend over for a second, you two. What the fuck is that?! Are those assholes?! Who put those there?! I created you in my image! What are you doing with orafices meant to expel digested waste?! I don't "eat" and I most certainly do not "shit". But then again, I did REST (I get TIRED?) on that seventh day, which would imply the expulsion and therefor the reconstitution of energy so maybe I do consume and defecate. Oh, this is all becoming too much! Holy fuck, are those coccyx, appendicis and wisdom teeth as well?! Not to mention, Adam, why the hell do you have nipples?!!!"

I wonder if you laughed at this. You see, I used satire (the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize) to completely deflate your god. I did this while drunk and half asleep. Should I thank Him for the free will or should I thank Ms. Zing, my eight-grade English teacher? I'll let you decide that. In the mean time, I challenge you to argue cohesively (or incohesiveIy or non-cohesively, if you'd like) to satirize the scientific point of view with an ounce of humor. I bet you can't. In fact, I know you can't. And not ONLY because you probably don't know anything about it, but because there is nothing FUNNY about it. You see, all the silliness was thrown out of it. What science proves wrong about itself, it has the courage to expel. Understand that religion gave way to science. Just as alchemy gave way to chemistry and astrology gave way to astronomy. It is your belief system that can be mocked, not because it is just to pick on the weak but because it is right to expose the liar.

And therefor, I'm not tooting my own horn here by admitting the above rant of a rambling drunk is funny because afteral, it's not my story, it's yours.


Post Script: In your last post, you called evolution "the theory that couldn't become fact because nobody has ever proven it". Yet again you expose your ignorance to your opposition. You see, in science, we prefer the word "theory" because we hold the belief that an idea is only "fact" until it has been disproved. That is the beauty of the system. Nothing is absolute. There is still a chance, however remote, that the apple may fall UP. This is not to discount what we hold as theories to be weak or unsupported. In fact, it is quite the opposite. A theory only becomes so after much scrutiny and is always replaceable in the face of new evidence. If you were clever enough, you might see in such open-mindedness the opportunity for god to reveal himself to the atheist or person of science and in that case convert him or her. The beauty of science is that should such a "miracle" occur, our deductive reasoning would have no choice but to make of us converts. The problem with your argument (which is an argument man's been working on for thousands of years) is that it, as of yet, holds up quite poorly to the scrutiny of deductive reasoning, just as do the stories of Zeus, Isis, Humpty Dumpty and Three Little Pigs.

Good night.

Fucking hilarious!!

EddieLedBetter

Gern Blansten wrote:

Devote Myself wrote:

"I'm not saying that believing in God makes you dumber. My hypothesis is that people with a low intelligence are more easily drawn toward religions, which give answers that are certain, while people with a high intelligence are more skeptical," says the professor. [5]

I pulled this from the article given : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosit ... telligence

And sadly enough, I find it true these days. I used to be a part of that crowd. I believed that I was too smart to believe in a myth. After all, I was valedictorian of my high school class and a biology major. (raised catholic, too, which really destroyed any notions I had of a real God.) I figured Mary probably got knocked up by Joseph and made up the whole angel visiting story to avoid certain death for premarital sex. I believed that a series of random genetic mutations caused bacterium to grow into plants and animals; first reptiles, then amphibians, then birds, then mammals. (although there is some confusion regarding birds descending from reptiles, too). I ate all it up and regurgitated it with straight A's. I could do whatever I wanted, not to be tied down by dogmatic morals. I ended up dropping out of college the first time around, so I could party full time. Spent almost 3 years drunk and high. And unfortunately empty. Nothing filled the emptiness.

Not until I faced my own pride and admitted defeat. Saw through the lies. Saw the world I had bought into and tried to create for myself.

They say christianity is the easiest religion to belong to. All you have to do is believe in your heart that Jesus was the son of God, died to make you right with God, and rose from the dead. And invite him to live through you and change you from the inside out.

In this intellectually driven world, this is one of the HARDEST things to do!
People assume you're unintelligent and simpleminded. (wrong) They think you blindly accept whatever the religious community tells you. (Which is also wrong) And they think that christians never question anything, which is also ridiculous. There are plenty of things in the Bible that I don't agree with. But I talk about it with God and ask him to show me why. There are plenty of things that I still haven't heard back about!


But I can accept that He/She is there. And if anything, my intelligence has improved without the beer and pot!

No one will know who was right and who was wrong until we die or the end comes, so there really isn't anymore I can say. I just encourage anyone who reads this to not be afraid to go against the grain. Search for truth. It has a way of revealing itself to those who aren't afraid to lay down their self images and start anew.

good stuff....I remember sitting in church when I first started having doubts (probably 15-16) and thinking..."couldn't there have been a better way for god to get the word out instead of torturing poor Jesus?" I mean come on....all it would take is some messages in the clouds or hell come down to earth and stomp a few people and we'll believe your story man!!

Where would the love of offering man free will be in that? If God straight up showed up at your door and told you he made you and performed miracles right in front of your eyes how could you not believe? There is no free will in that. That is being forced. Instead his message is subtle and unchanging leaving room for doubt so you can decide for yourself to have faith. Definitely a hard message to grasp but coming to know something like God isnt easy.

Gern Blansten

that isn't being forced....that is being given an informed decision to make

Without a face to face offer I have received nothing from god.

Have fun with that...

BinauralJam

Jesus was a black dude
a very special man
Jesus was a black dude
not some white guy
with a tan
Jesus was a black dude
as everybody knows
Jesus, ah ha, called everybody bro.

u have to sing this!!!

Brain of Dave

Evergreen wrote:

I think Eddie stated his beliefs in a recent interview...

"Is there one book that you have read that has been life-changing for you?
Jennifer Coppertino, New York

One that jumps to mind is Cat’s Cradle by Kurt Vonnegut. He talks about being a humanist, about it being a little different from being an atheist, which had a profound effect on me. I ended up reading pretty much everything he wrote after that, two, three, four, five times. The only other author who’s had a similar effect has been Charles Bukowski, who opens your eyes to the fact that there’s beauty in everybody’s life. The life of someone on the lowest rung of the ladder is as colourful and meaningful, if not more, as some character in an F Scott Fitzgerald novel. So it makes you realize that we are all individuals and we all have something going on that is worthy of introspection and respect."

and


"You’ve been lined with David Lynch’s Transcendental Meditation movement; you’ve worn an Aleister Crowley t-shirt and you’ve stated that you’re an atheist. What do you personally believe in and how did you get there?
Stephan Rott, Germany

Well it changes! And I think we have to be flexible. Any belief system that is inflexible, closed off to other belief systems, is profoundly unhealthy. I also think that if you look at life as a long line of evolutionary changes that started billions of years ago, from little things crawling in the mud, and the you realise where we’ve got to now, that is a remarkable set of circumstances. There is more magic in that, for me, than someone creating the planet in six days and taking a day off. When you realize how long humanity has taken to get to this point, it makes you respect another person’s life in a deeper and broader sense. I wouldn’t’ think of killing anybody because their lineage goes back to the primordial seas, not because there’s some eye in the sky, looking out for how many commandments you’re going to break."

After skimming through all this debate bull shit, this seems to be the only poast that has anything to with the topic asked so I thank you!

I remember watching the Iconoclasts episode featuring Ed with Laid Hamilton when they went up in the helicopter. They saw two circular rainbows when up in the skies of Hawaii. When they got back into the ground, a star struck Ed said to the camera that the pilot and Laird had just introduced him to God.

Who is the "Love Boat Captain"? Ed is crying out, "God, what do you say?" in Marker In the Sand, but also says, "God is nowhere to be found".

The video for "Do the Evolution" shows the world being created through the evolutionary process and not that of intelligent design.

"Faithfull" I think speaks against organized religion, the two F's in "full" like "full of shit", buts thats just my opinion.

eric75surf

I beleive people are spiritual sometimes, but some deny the existence of any type of diety. Some people beleive in a supreme being on good days...and perhaps the same individual won't beleive in a higher being the nex, cuz of a bad day. Pearl Jam was young in 1998...and it is possible some members are religiousor spiritual (a bit of differnce between the too, I think) . How much difference does it make if they are or aren't...I myself love the music, and beleive it comes from a spritual source because as mentioned earlier people are spiritual beings. Einstein claimed to be an atheist all his life...until the end of his life where he said "everything works out too perfect in the universe"....The elegance of an atom...or photoflourescent light from a deep sea fish. I myself find it easy to be spiritual and beleive in concepts such as evolutin etc...I studied science and know what's going on at the level of the DNA and mutation. At this very moment mutations are occuring in billions of people all over the world..one may be beneficial..and if he/she reproduces a new special, hopefully good, type of human (same species) is born...Ok sorry about the ramble

pandora

Well I couldn't tell you if Eddie believes in Jesus but I know Jesus believes in Eddie
an amazing spirit Ed is

drebin76

walkthehemisphere wrote:

In reference to the above post, the interview with Jeanine Garafalo is the one I had mentioned as the only reference I've found, and its 11 years old. I'm wondering if there is any updated info, or a more accurate discussion with Ed about the topic. I haven't found a quote by Ed claiming outright to be an atheist, a christian, agnostic, or whatever. Back in 1998, he seemed to have a lot of questions about God. And its hard to not be turned off to force fed faith. But I'm wondering what answers he's gotten since then and how his views have evolved. Especially since having children. I don't think you can appreciate the mystery and miracle of life until you help to create one and see it enter the world. And see that it has its own soul.

I also think that is why "everything has to be religious". (Well, i hate the term religious, actually. it simply conjurs up images of hypocrites and rules). But I think it has to do with our souls. This is my theory. As human beings, we are born with souls that are connected to God. But when we "lose our innocence" or make that first deliberate decision to break the basic moral code (that all humans seem to inexplicably have), that connection is severed. And we spend the rest of our lives either trying to find our way back, running away from, or just filling the hole with whatever we can: work, pleasure, objects, etc
So every human has to deal with this faith issue throughout their lives. A lot of PJ lyrics remind me of wrestling with those issues.

You seem to mix up religion and faith. Someone can have faith, but not feel the need to apply it to any book. religion is ...er... holy litterature, for lack of a better expression.
I have faith, but will never, ever shackle it to one book or another. Claiming you're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or whatever you may be, just adds that feel of righteousness to something that should be so simple.

And as for Pearl Jam and their faith, let it be theirs, we're here for their music, their songs, and the feeling we all get when they play for us... The rest, is theirs...