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  • jimed14
    jimed14 Posts: 9,488
    ryan198 wrote:
    Dude I've been following Red Sox Nation around for my dissertation...I have a decent amount of video/photos/field notes which shows the fans of this team as being sexist (pink hat fans as a deragatory term), homophobic ('queer' and 'fag' being a huge part of New England humor), and yes racist (from the orientalism of wearing Dice-K bandanas, to hearing lots of people laughing at this guy outside of the Cask 'N Flagon saying "herro, herro" while mocking a Japanese TV crew, to the media and fans infantilizing Manny Ramirez ("Manny being Manny") even though by player accounts from Jim Thome to David Ortiz, Manny Ramirez is one of the most intelligent, hard working players there is and he's making fun of RSN every time he messes around. On top of that I have these articles from Torri Hunter (http://umpbump.com/press/tori-hunter-weighs-in-on-honoring-jackie-robinson/), Gary Matthews Jr. (http://www.rootzoo.com/threads/view/24011/)*, Michael Wilbon being inteveiewed by Bill Simmons, interviews with noted proffesors around the northeast, interviews with Shaughnessy, Cafardo, and others actually in the organization, the people who did Sox appeal, and they all say the same thing ... it's not gone. The racism is still there, and they can't do much about it.

    What do I mean by that:
    It's in the way that Robinson's #42 is emblanized in right field, despite the fact that he wasn't allowed to play for the Sox, it's in the way that into the late 80's the team was referred to as "the plantation", it's in the way that following the '86 World Series there was a race riot on UMass-Amherst's campus, or the way Sox fans called Jim Rice "Uncle Ben", or chanted "you're not Irish" to Troy O'Leary, the way Sox fans cheer louder for "great white hopes" like Jason Varitek, Dustin Padroia, and Kevin Youkilis, the former and latter that both sucked last year but Manny Ramirez who absolutely carried the team with David Ortiz got the blame for 'tanking the season' after he took September off, it's in the way that you could get little Japanese drums with Dice-K (that's not how you pronounce his last name by the way that was a marketing scheme) printed on it, its in the way that in one Boston Globe commentary this year a writer said that he was going into Fenway when a little kid road by on a bike (he was black), and someone entering the game with him said "go steal a radio" and the crowd around him laughed. I've got more if you want it, I'm just starting to write this thing.

    *that's not the full article but it has some of the quotes the Boston media conveniently cut out.

    well, I'd love to read it when you're done ... but I certianly you have more sources then a website that doesn't work, a link to a quote from an article, rather then the article itself and something you thought you heard your fiancees mom say she may have heard on NESN or ESPN or something .. perhaps you just chose those as examples and you have better ones tucked away, again ... would like to read it when you're done.

    all these things sadly ring true, I could see them happening unfortunately ... and they are dispicable, but, I think it's taking a few really bad examples (and they are bad) ... and stretching it a bit to make a compelling story about red sox fans "in general".

    "Manny being Manny" ... we gave the same grief to guys like Millar when he did appearently silly crap ... called him an idiot (self proclaimed actually) ... and he's white.

    I think most sox fans know how dedicated Manny is to hitting, that he's a huge student of the game and always tryng to perfect his hitting approach thorugh video study and extra batting practice ... and that indeed, he is misunderstood ...

    but some of the things he's done are over the top unexplainable from a baseball standpoint, like cutting off a throw from center field to short stop in the middle of the outfield ... or all the things he's been doing with his batting helmet in the playoffs ... there are more, many more, that only Manny does ... he's a unique player, a unique talent, with some eccentricity to him ... that's MANNY BEING MANNY ... and that has NOTHING to do with race.

    Sexist ... pink hat fans as a derogitory term? Can you explain that one a little better ... and how this classifies not all, but most of Red Sox Nation as sexist? If this is really what you're basing the entire "sexist" claim to ... seems a bit thin. (perhaps this is where that show Sox Appeal comes in that you mention? no clue).

    Dice-K ... it's a nick name that is indeed catchy ... K just happens to mean strike out so I think it's a term of affection, not any sort of derogatory term ... I think you're strecthing that one a bit. Have you asked him how he feels about being called Dice-K? Or, is there any proof that he feels offended? If he had a problem with it, I think they'd stop in a heartbeat. I'd be curious to see if other teams have done the same thing with the Asian head wraps for folks like Ichiro, or Hideo Nomo in the day ....

    I just feel you're taking the bad examples ... and sadly, there are some ... and labeling ALL of RSN with it ... and saying it's the MOST sexist and racist fan base ... well .. just seems pretty bold with no comparisons to what other places are like such as NY, Philly, et al ... as for your movie about the Orioles fan ... again, sadly, there are PLENTY of youtube videos of some pretty heinous crap going on in the stands of ballparks around the country ... fights, beer dumping ... unbelieveable ... Doesn't make any of it right, some of those examples such as "go steal a radio" are flat out wrong ... that's for sure.

    as for the past, indeed, there is NO argument here about how Boston was a racist place, and for a long time, a place where *no* athlete of *any* color wanted to sign with the Sox ... freakin' Jim Rice being the only person of color for years the Sox had ... the Sox being the last team to integrate ... etc ... it's pretty well known that Tom Yawkey was very racist, and that carried into his management through the 80's. But, that speaks more towards mgmt, not the red sox fan.


    Kind of shocked you're doing this whole dissertation on racism in Boston sports and you didn't mention Howard Bryant's "Shut Out" once ... there's a good read.
    "You're one of the few Red Sox fans I don't mind." - Newch91

    "I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass." --- Pedro Martinez
  • ryan198
    ryan198 Posts: 1,015
    jimed14 wrote:
    well, I'd love to read it when you're done ... but I certianly you have more sources then a website that doesn't work, a link to a quote from an article, rather then the article itself and something you thought you heard your fiancees mom say she may have heard on NESN or ESPN or something .. perhaps you just chose those as examples and you have better ones tucked away, again ... would like to read it when you're done.

    all these things sadly ring true, I could see them happening unfortunately ... and they are dispicable, but, I think it's taking a few really bad examples (and they are bad) ... and stretching it a bit to make a compelling story about red sox fans "in general".

    "Manny being Manny" ... we gave the same grief to guys like Millar when he did appearently silly crap ... called him an idiot (self proclaimed actually) ... and he's white.

    I think most sox fans know how dedicated Manny is to hitting, that he's a huge student of the game and always tryng to perfect his hitting approach thorugh video study and extra batting practice ... and that indeed, he is misunderstood ...

    but some of the things he's done are over the top unexplainable from a baseball standpoint, like cutting off a throw from center field to short stop in the middle of the outfield ... or all the things he's been doing with his batting helmet in the playoffs ... there are more, many more, that only Manny does ... he's a unique player, a unique talent, with some eccentricity to him ... that's MANNY BEING MANNY ... and that has NOTHING to do with race.

    Sexist ... pink hat fans as a derogitory term? Can you explain that one a little better ... and how this classifies not all, but most of Red Sox Nation as sexist? If this is really what you're basing the entire "sexist" claim to ... seems a bit thin. (perhaps this is where that show Sox Appeal comes in that you mention? no clue).

    Dice-K ... it's a nick name that is indeed catchy ... K just happens to mean strike out so I think it's a term of affection, not any sort of derogatory term ... I think you're strecthing that one a bit. Have you asked him how he feels about being called Dice-K? Or, is there any proof that he feels offended? If he had a problem with it, I think they'd stop in a heartbeat. I'd be curious to see if other teams have done the same thing with the Asian head wraps for folks like Ichiro, or Hideo Nomo in the day ....

    I just feel you're taking the bad examples ... and sadly, there are some ... and labeling ALL of RSN with it ... and saying it's the MOST sexist and racist fan base ... well .. just seems pretty bold with no comparisons to what other places are like such as NY, Philly, et al ... as for your movie about the Orioles fan ... again, sadly, there are PLENTY of youtube videos of some pretty heinous crap going on in the stands of ballparks around the country ... fights, beer dumping ... unbelieveable ... Doesn't make any of it right, some of those examples such as "go steal a radio" are flat out wrong ... that's for sure.

    as for the past, indeed, there is NO argument here about how Boston was a racist place, and for a long time, a place where *no* athlete of *any* color wanted to sign with the Sox ... freakin' Jim Rice being the only person of color for years the Sox had ... the Sox being the last team to integrate ... etc ... it's pretty well known that Tom Yawkey was very racist, and that carried into his management through the 80's. But, that speaks more towards mgmt, not the red sox fan.


    Kind of shocked you're doing this whole dissertation on racism in Boston sports and you didn't mention Howard Bryant's "Shut Out" once ... there's a good read.

    Yes those are but a few brief examples...google Torri Hunter and Jackie Robinson, and Gary Mathews and Diogivanna (I think he wrote the whole article in the Fresno Bee). As for Howard Bryant he also has a good chapter in the book "The Good City", as well as "Shut Out", is a huge Sox and Pats fan and was one of the best interviews I have...we spoke for like 2 hours on the topic and he still asserts that racism is going on in Red Sox Nation with several good points (for example "What/who is a dirtdog?"). One day I hope to be able to put them all up on a website so people can listen to and see the different views people who are in/cover Red Sox Nation have on this relatively new and growing phenomenon.

    As for the core fans you might want to check out the book "All Souls" by MacDonald (forgot his first name), but it talks about growing up in Southie, which is the sort of aesthetic that management markets to (hence the green hats/jersey's). Stoudt and Johnson on the history of the team, as well as the requisite Shaughnessy reads, plus the stupid books that came out after the '04 WS like Simmons, King and O'Nan, Mnookin, etc. all helped inform this project. Also check out the movies the Departed, Good Will Hunting, and Fever Pitch (not for core fans I know) for other modes of racism, sexism/homophobia, classism in the mediated version of Red Sox Nation.

    Are Boston fans different from fans of any other city? Perhaps not...but its the fact that the Red Sox are becoming the most popular team in baseball, coupled with an uncritical media view of them that is the impetus for me doing this research. Thus while its cool to have this team and group of fans, it's also important that we understand what this group symbolizes to people who aren't in the group but effected by it.
  • rearviewmiror
    rearviewmiror Posts: 894
    I don't get this racist assertion. We all wear t-shirts of dominican players, japanese players, and black players.

    It's a shameful part of the sox past that they were racist, but they paid for that by being uncompetitve and unable to draw key minority free agents.

    Now, there is no more beloved figure in Boston sports than David Ortiz. Not just for his bat, for him as a person. The whole manny thing is overblown by a vocal minority. This town loves manny, and you can see that by all of the folks wearing his tshirt and jerseys.

    This town loves baseball, and if anything the player most hated on this season was white. (JD Drew) It's about the game these days, and nothing else.
    9/7/98, 8/3/00, 9/4/00, 4/15/03, 7/1/03, 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 5/24/06, 5/25/06, 6/17/08, 6/22/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 5/17/10, 10/15/13, 10/16/13.
  • ryan198
    ryan198 Posts: 1,015
    rearviewmiror wrote:
    I don't get this racist assertion. We all wear t-shirts of dominican players, japanese players, and black players.

    It's a shameful part of the sox past that they were racist, but they paid for that by being uncompetitve and unable to draw key minority free agents.

    Now, there is no more beloved figure in Boston sports than David Ortiz. Not just for his bat, for him as a person. The whole manny thing is overblown by a vocal minority. This town loves manny, and you can see that by all of the folks wearing his tshirt and jerseys.

    This town loves baseball, and if anything the player most hated on this season was white. (JD Drew) It's about the game these days, and nothing else.
    That's the equivalent of someone saying they aren't racist because their best friend is black and they don't like the white guy across the street. There's more to it than that. You like David Ortiz because he doesn't speak out against the atrocities that forced him to play baseball in America and he's awesome at hitting the baseball, and Manny because even if he did speak out you wouldn't have a Spanish speaking reporter to tell you that - which, one of my interviewees says, is why he always asks to be traded when he's at home in the DR just to piss RSN off.

    It was more evident in the fact that you liked Pedro for his on-field play (loved even), but as a crowd hated the fact that he brought in Dominican fans (check out Alan Klein's article on this in 2000 in Sociology of Sport Journal), and hated when he spoke out against management, other players, and the political situation between the Dominican Republic and U.S. (see what he said about Danny Almonte in 2001, and how he got crushed in the local media). Pedro donated his right arm to the team, was every bit the "dirtdog" that (probable) roider-Trot Nixon ever was, but he was called a prima donna (a.k.a. "gay") by the media then consequently by the fans because he did things unique to his personality and ethnicity...that is where I am going with the racism thing.
  • jimed14
    jimed14 Posts: 9,488
    ryan198 wrote:
    Yes those are but a few brief examples...google Torri Hunter and Jackie Robinson, and Gary Mathews and Diogivanna (I think he wrote the whole article in the Fresno Bee). As for Howard Bryant he also has a good chapter in the book "The Good City", as well as "Shut Out", is a huge Sox and Pats fan and was one of the best interviews I have...we spoke for like 2 hours on the topic and he still asserts that racism is going on in Red Sox Nation with several good points (for example "What/who is a dirtdog?"). One day I hope to be able to put them all up on a website so people can listen to and see the different views people who are in/cover Red Sox Nation have on this relatively new and growing phenomenon.

    As for the core fans you might want to check out the book "All Souls" by MacDonald (forgot his first name), but it talks about growing up in Southie, which is the sort of aesthetic that management markets to (hence the green hats/jersey's). Stoudt and Johnson on the history of the team, as well as the requisite Shaughnessy reads, plus the stupid books that came out after the '04 WS like Simmons, King and O'Nan, Mnookin, etc. all helped inform this project. Also check out the movies the Departed, Good Will Hunting, and Fever Pitch (not for core fans I know) for other modes of racism, sexism/homophobia, classism in the mediated version of Red Sox Nation.

    Are Boston fans different from fans of any other city? Perhaps not...but its the fact that the Red Sox are becoming the most popular team in baseball, coupled with an uncritical media view of them that is the impetus for me doing this research. Thus while its cool to have this team and group of fans, it's also important that we understand what this group symbolizes to people who aren't in the group but effected by it.


    ok, see, now you're saying "perhaps not" when asking the question are Boston fans different then any other city's fans ... when earlier, your initial comment claimed we were the most racist and sexist this side of Miss St's fans (assume that has to do with Sylvester Croom) ... so ... if your assertion is that indeed, there is some racism going on in the stands of Fenway ... then yeah, I'd agree (people would have to be pretty stupid not to) ... it was that initial comment that threw me.

    As for "All Souls", read it ... btw, in case you didn't know ... I grew up in 99% white town north of Boston ... and lived in or around Boston for 30 years before moving west.

    Uncritical media? Man, I think we're becoming the most hated fan base in America ... we're certainly catching up to the Yankees.

    Finally, if you spoke to Howard Bryant for 2 hours, then I want to read it asap ... get to typing.

    (Don't get me started on Shaughnessy)
    "You're one of the few Red Sox fans I don't mind." - Newch91

    "I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass." --- Pedro Martinez
  • GreenTeaDisease
    GreenTeaDisease Posts: 3,359
    ryan198 wrote:
    Yes those are but a few brief examples...google Torri Hunter and Jackie Robinson, and Gary Mathews and Diogivanna (I think he wrote the whole article in the Fresno Bee). As for Howard Bryant he also has a good chapter in the book "The Good City", as well as "Shut Out", is a huge Sox and Pats fan and was one of the best interviews I have...we spoke for like 2 hours on the topic and he still asserts that racism is going on in Red Sox Nation with several good points (for example "What/who is a dirtdog?"). One day I hope to be able to put them all up on a website so people can listen to and see the different views people who are in/cover Red Sox Nation have on this relatively new and growing phenomenon.

    As for the core fans you might want to check out the book "All Souls" by MacDonald (forgot his first name), but it talks about growing up in Southie, which is the sort of aesthetic that management markets to (hence the green hats/jersey's). Stoudt and Johnson on the history of the team, as well as the requisite Shaughnessy reads, plus the stupid books that came out after the '04 WS like Simmons, King and O'Nan, Mnookin, etc. all helped inform this project. Also check out the movies the Departed, Good Will Hunting, and Fever Pitch (not for core fans I know) for other modes of racism, sexism/homophobia, classism in the mediated version of Red Sox Nation.

    Are Boston fans different from fans of any other city? Perhaps not...but its the fact that the Red Sox are becoming the most popular team in baseball, coupled with an uncritical media view of them that is the impetus for me doing this research. Thus while its cool to have this team and group of fans, it's also important that we understand what this group symbolizes to people who aren't in the group but effected by it.

    what are you getting your PhD in that this dissertation relates to? And what is the actual topic? racism in red sox nation?

    I think the problems you cite really have nothing to do with red sox specifically (except maybe historically, but history is history) and more to do with sports culture and the sports demographic in general.
  • ryan198
    ryan198 Posts: 1,015
    jimed14 wrote:
    ok, see, now you're saying "perhaps not" when asking the question are Boston fans different then any other city's fans ... when earlier, your initial comment claimed we were the most racist and sexist this side of Miss St's fans (assume that has to do with Sylvester Croom) ... so ... if your assertion is that indeed, there is some racism going on in the stands of Fenway ... then yeah, I'd agree (people would have to be pretty stupid not to) ... it was that initial comment that threw me.

    As for "All Souls", read it ... btw, in case you didn't know ... I grew up in 99% white town north of Boston ... and lived in or around Boston for 30 years before moving west.

    Uncritical media? Man, I think we're becoming the most hated fan base in America ... we're certainly catching up to the Yankees.

    Finally, if you spoke to Howard Bryant for 2 hours, then I want to read it asap ... get to typing.

    (Don't get me started on Shaughnessy)
    No I wasn't talking about Mississippi State I was talking about Ole Miss, you know the school nicknamed after the slaveowners wife (hence ole miss not old miss)...it just a bit of frustration being in the middle of a dissertation but yeah there was some crazy stuff going down this year. In some ways you are hated in the media, particularly out west (I did the Seattle/LA/Baltimore trip this season), but not in the same way as the Yankees. I'm writing and still researching a bit, I still have to talk to Dr. Charles Steinberg (he's high on the team's food chain) in a couple weeks, Jim Lonborg sometime soon, and hopefully more through them within the diversity initiatives within the Red Sox. Bryant was an awesome interview and he hooked me up with more media people in Boston than I thought I'd ever get a hold of, but so were Dr. John Bracey at UMass-Amherst who was there for the riot, and Dr. Stephen Mosher at Ithaca College who grew up near Saugus AND went to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s I have a dream speech and he talked about what it was like juggling the Boston thing with the race/class/gender thing. It's been a long crazy year, and it's only getting crazier. I do, however, have to get to writing.
  • jimed14
    jimed14 Posts: 9,488
    ryan198 wrote:
    It was more evident in the fact that you liked Pedro for his on-field play (loved even), but as a crowd hated the fact that he brought in Dominican fans (check out Alan Klein's article on this in 2000 in Sociology of Sport Journal),


    well, I'd have to pay for it, but here's the abstract ...

    ABSTRACT:
    This study examines racial tolerance through the intersection of the media, fans, and the Boston Red Sox. Through the 1998 season Red Sox home games in which Dominican Pedro Martinez pitched attracted large numbers of Latinos. This marked the first time that large numbers of people of color regularly attended Fenway Park. Media reports simultaneously promoted both an awareness of this cultural phenomenon and portrayed it as widely applauded. In presenting a story of Boston's "embracing the ace," the media reports also wound up pushing a view of widespread approval of the new Latino presence both in Fenway and society at large. This study sought to compare the impressions of widespread exuberance for Martinez and the Dominicans at the Park with actual interviews of those Anglos at the Park. It also sought to examine what motivated the Dominicans to attend in such large numbers and to so publicly celebrate their identity. The results showed that Anglos held a fractured view about Dominicans: a very positive view of Pedro Martinez as a Dominican but a fairly evenly split view of Dominicans in general. For their part, Dominicans were unconcerned with what Anglos thought and came to the game only to lend support to their Latino hero, as well as bask in his reflected glow. One methodological conclusion arrived at is that media content analysis must be cross checked against some sort of data and must not be assumed to accurately reflect social reality.
    "You're one of the few Red Sox fans I don't mind." - Newch91

    "I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass." --- Pedro Martinez
  • GreenTeaDisease
    GreenTeaDisease Posts: 3,359
    ryan198 wrote:
    You like David Ortiz because he doesn't speak out against the atrocities that forced him to play baseball in America and he's awesome at hitting the baseball,

    "forced" him to play baseball in America? The dude gets paid MILLIONS of dollars to play a game made for little kids...I think he has had some say in that...
  • ryan198
    ryan198 Posts: 1,015
    GreenTeaDisease wrote:
    what are you getting your PhD in that this dissertation relates to? And what is the actual topic? racism in red sox nation?

    I think the problems you cite really have nothing to do with red sox specifically (except maybe historically, but history is history) and more to do with sports culture and the sports demographic in general.
    First of all let me bastardize Karl Marx and say that history has a whole lot to do with how we live and behave today. Without history we wouldn't have the whole set of social structures in place that we were born into.

    As for my dissertation it is actually on Baseball, Citizenship, and Identity and has 6 chapters (including an intro and conclusion) so it goes:
    1. Intro
    2. 2003 LLWS Production of Americo-Centric Citizenship
    3. Danny Almonte the Discursive Contruction of the (Non)Citizen
    4. Mediating the "Normalized" Citizen within Red Sox Nation
    5. "Living It": Red Sox Nation 2007 Travelogues within a White Community
    6. Conclusion

    So you are right it has to do with sport culture in general...the Little League World Series and Red Sox Nation are my empirical sites, but these sites are but a few examples of how these issues of race/class etc. get played out in the United States.

    Hope this helps describe where I'm coming from.
  • GreenTeaDisease
    GreenTeaDisease Posts: 3,359
    ryan198 wrote:
    First of all let me bastardize Karl Marx and say that history has a whole lot to do with how we live and behave today. Without history we wouldn't have the whole set of social structures in place that we were born into.

    As for my dissertation it is actually on Baseball, Citizenship, and Identity and has 6 chapters (including an intro and conclusion) so it goes:
    1. Intro
    2. 2003 LLWS Production of Americo-Centric Citizenship
    3. Danny Almonte the Discursive Contruction of the (Non)Citizen
    4. Mediating the "Normalized" Citizen within Red Sox Nation
    5. "Living It": Red Sox Nation 2007 Travelogues within a White Community
    6. Conclusion

    So you are right it has to do with sport culture in general...the Little League World Series and Red Sox Nation are my empirical sites, but these sites are but a few examples of how these issues of race/class etc. get played out in the United States.

    Hope this helps describe where I'm coming from.

    what are you getting a PhD in? American studies or something?
  • ryan198
    ryan198 Posts: 1,015
    GreenTeaDisease wrote:
    "forced" him to play baseball in America? The dude gets paid MILLIONS of dollars to play a game made for little kids...I think he has had some say in that...
    You should check out some Dominican Baseball Documentaries, read Alan Klein's Sugarball, Jane Juffer's articles on Sammy Sosa and Dominican Baseball, and/or Steve Mosher's stuff on ESPN.com circa 2001 on Danny Almonte to see the conditions young Dominican boys are brought up in. He may well have been forced by his family.
  • ryan198
    ryan198 Posts: 1,015
    GreenTeaDisease wrote:
    what are you getting a PhD in? American studies or something?
    Kinesiology...but the concentration is Physical Cultural Studies...kind of a version of American Studies.
  • NOCODE#1
    NOCODE#1 Posts: 1,477
    ryan198 wrote:
    He may well have been forced by his family.
    and americans dont give a fuck

    as long as their teams wins the series


    where's the story here


    puhleeeeeeeeze


    RED SOX NATION
    Let's not be negative now. Thumper has spoken
  • GreenTeaDisease
    GreenTeaDisease Posts: 3,359
    ryan198 wrote:
    You should check out some Dominican Baseball Documentaries, read Alan Klein's Sugarball, Jane Juffer's articles on Sammy Sosa and Dominican Baseball, and/or Steve Mosher's stuff on ESPN.com circa 2001 on Danny Almonte to see the conditions young Dominican boys are brought up in. He may well have been forced by his family.

    I realize there are bad conditions in the dominican and sure he *could* have been "forced" by his family. But people's families force them to do far worse than play baseball and make millions of dollars! There are plenty of people in this world who's families are currently forcing them to work in sweatshops 12 hours a day and they'll never get to move to the US, play mlb, and live like a millionaire as a result.
  • jimed14
    jimed14 Posts: 9,488
    ryan198 wrote:
    You should check out some Dominican Baseball Documentaries, read Alan Klein's Sugarball, Jane Juffer's articles on Sammy Sosa and Dominican Baseball, and/or Steve Mosher's stuff on ESPN.com circa 2001 on Danny Almonte to see the conditions young Dominican boys are brought up in. He may well have been forced by his family.

    Interesting, I would have thought white parents would be just as horrible, mean, overly demanding and exploitive of their kids when it comes to sports as any other culture ...

    +1 for us whiteys! :rolleyes:
    "You're one of the few Red Sox fans I don't mind." - Newch91

    "I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass." --- Pedro Martinez
  • ryan198
    ryan198 Posts: 1,015
    NOCODE#1 wrote:
    and americans dont give a fuck

    as long as their teams wins the series


    where's the story here


    puhleeeeeeeeze


    RED SOX NATION
    Ladies and Gentlemen ... my dissertation.
  • ryan198
    ryan198 Posts: 1,015
    jimed14 wrote:
    Interesting, I would have thought white parents would be just as horrible, mean, overly demanding and exploitive of their kids when it comes to sports as any other culture ...

    +1 for us whiteys! :rolleyes:
    They certainly can be, but it's not the same when those same white american kids have opportunities to go to college and get nice jobs not playing sports. If David Ortiz and Pedro Martinez had failed they would have returned home to the dominican to work in U.S. owned sweatshops, in some cases in the US that's becoming close to reality, but not the same. On top of that people get pissed when these young Carribean/Latino/S.A. players come over here and can't speak "proper" English, but fail to recognize everything the system of U.S.-led capitalism that leads most of them to come here in the first place. That's kinda what Howard Bryant was talking about when he was laughing that there is no Spanish speaking reporter in Boston, yet they make fun of Manny because he doesn't speak clear English...uh...really...ya think if you grew up in similar conditions here then went to the D.R. to play you'd be able to speak clear Latino-Spanish?
  • GreenTeaDisease
    GreenTeaDisease Posts: 3,359
    ryan198 wrote:
    They certainly can be, but it's not the same when those same white american kids have opportunities to go to college and get nice jobs not playing sports.

    wait, this makes NO sense.

    First of all, why is it so horrible to play sports? There of plenty of college kids who didn't have the opportunity/talent to play sports but would have preferred that over college! Playing baseball isn't a "nice job"?

    and what about an american kid who fails out of college...what do they go home to? Sure life in America may be better all around, but they're still stuck in a shitty job and whatnot.

    I don't understand why you think ortiz and manny have such horrible lives...they may have been born into bad circumstances yes, but come on! they used their abilities to better their lives! they are now doing better than all of us-they play a kid's game for millions of dollars. who knows, maybe they would have preferred to be doctors, but there are probably thousands of doctors who would prefer to be baseball players! I'd rather be a rock star...you do what you can...
  • ryan198
    ryan198 Posts: 1,015
    GreenTeaDisease wrote:
    wait, this makes NO sense.

    First of all, why is it so horrible to play sports? There of plenty of college kids who didn't have the opportunity/talent to play sports but would have preferred that over college! Playing baseball isn't a "nice job"?

    and what about an american kid who fails out of college...what do they go home to? Sure life in America may be better all around, but they're still stuck in a shitty job and whatnot.

    I don't understand why you think ortiz and manny have such horrible lives...they may have been born into bad circumstances yes, but come on! they used their abilities to better their lives! they are now doing better than all of us-they play a kid's game for millions of dollars. who knows, maybe they would have preferred to be doctors, but there are probably thousands of doctors who would prefer to be baseball players! I'd rather be a rock star...you do what you can...
    I can appreciate your sentiment. However, you are getting to the crux of my argument. I don't think we should live a life of "you do what you can", "pull yerself up by the bootstraps" capitalism, I think there are better ways of living - perhaps with capitalism than the current system that we operate under. Maybe Ortiz, Manny Ramirez, and others in the D.R. were more talented as Doctors than baseball players, but never got the opportunity to do that kind of good in our society because we don't compensate them the same way so they are pushed into playing baseball. The same could be said about any number of occupations that help the overall welfare of society (parenting, teaching, etc.) which do not pay all that well mostly b/c historically the power structure in our society would rather have a dumb, lifeless republic that they can run roughshod over. How else could we have stolen elections in 1960, 2000, and probably 2004?

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