The problem is that it is impossible to understand what you say because your posts are like a enigma. I feel as if someone took an Eckhart Tolle book put in a blender and then splashed the contents all over my computer screen.
Here is my original response on the different between attraction and objectifying:
I am curious, what exactly do people think is the difference between appreciating someone's beauty and objectifying them?
It's great to appreciate someone's beauty! I do this all the time, male or female. As long as you see them as human beings with feelings, and attempt to connect with their thoughts, feelings and intuitions as well.
If that's a little too complicated for you, I'll try to dumb it down the next time...............;)
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
The problem is that it is impossible to understand what you say because your posts are like a enigma. I feel as if someone took an Eckhart Tolle book put in a blender and then splashed the contents all over my computer screen.
For me the issue isn't with someone not appreciating my ability to look attractive. I personally love that attention. It goes beyond my skill/ability, or that of other women's, to the intentions of the man (in this case ) in question. Does he appreciate me as a human being, and for my ability to look attractive/hot? Or does he look at me as an image or shell/object, there to do his bidding? Does he then tune out my feedback to the contrary? (this has happened to me a LOT)
.....too difficult to understand?
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
The problem is that it is impossible to understand what you say because your posts are like a enigma. I feel as if someone took an Eckhart Tolle book put in a blender and then splashed the contents all over my computer screen.
If you find them to be hot, obviously that's just reality. It depends on what you do with those feelings. Do you objectify them and purely relate to their physical shell? Or do you think about them as a person. You may not know them individually, but most people have a degree of empathy, and can relate to the commonalities between others....We can empathize with how they might feel in different situations. Or, again, we can see them purely as a sexual fantasy which revolves around our sexual desires..ie: in fantasy, where the person is there to do our bidding.
Seems to me, if someone is looking to understand, it's all right there...
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Here is my original response on the different between attraction and objectifying:
If that's a little too complicated for you, I'll try to dumb it down the next time...............;)
So in essence you are saying that if I do not connect with the women on some spiritual or emotional level then it is not OK. So I ask how can you connect, on these levels, with a complete stranger or a picture in a magazine.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
I'm pretty sure that you where on board with scb, Saturnal and VG with the idea that sexual or physical attraction is objectification. You may have said that there is nothing wrong with this level of objectification but you where definitely categorizing it as objectification.
I'm not saying physical attraction is objectification. The objectification happens on other levels...emotional/spiritual levels, not the physical level. I can't be sure, but I believe I initially responded to someone talking about seeing a woman and then imagining themselves in an intimate situation with that woman. There's a difference between getting physically aroused when you see an attractive woman and imagining having sex with her.
I'm not saying physical attraction is objectification. The objectification happens on other levels...emotional/spiritual levels, not the physical level. I can't be sure, but I believe I initially responded to someone talking about seeing a woman and then imagining themselves in an intimate situation with that woman. There's a difference between getting physically aroused when you see an attractive woman and imagining having sex with her.
There is a difference but neither of them means that you don't respect her as a person. If I sit at work and fantasize about going home and having sex with my girlfriend am I objectifying her.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
So in essence you are saying that if I do not connect with the women on some spiritual or emotional level then it is not OK. So I ask how can you connect, on these levels, with a complete stranger or a picture in a magazine.
I am saying I support everyone living their lives to the best of their ability and to their own purposes. When I say I LOVE and embrace all of life, I mean that.
I know you'll make the right decisions for you, which is all anyone can ask.
I haven't once presumed what people should or should not do. I have spoken for myself, and for the holistic perspective. Also, I have defined objectification as I understand it.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I'm not saying physical attraction is objectification. The objectification happens on other levels...emotional/spiritual levels, not the physical level. I can't be sure, but I believe I initially responded to someone talking about seeing a woman and then imagining themselves in an intimate situation with that woman. There's a difference between getting physically aroused when you see an attractive woman and imagining having sex with her.
And the response is... what's so wrong about imagining having sex with someone? Since when did fantasy become evil? Unless one takes it to the extent that we approach that person and attempt to get them to fulfill that fantasy with no regard to their opinion on the matter, what's the big deal? Are you saying it is impossible to ever fantasize about having sex with someone while still treating them with respect and dignity? That's absurd.
Jesus, you people must lead dull lives. I can't imagine a life without the joy of using my imagination.
There is a difference but neither of them means that you don't respect her as a person. If I sit at work and fantasize about going home and having sex with my girlfriend am I objectifying her.
i'm gonna speculate that if you are fantasizing about having sex with your gf for the purpose of having a mutually beneficial experience that is as much about the connection and feelings you have for each other - then NO ... but if your sole purpose is to have sex with her so you can get off and you just are using her because she's available - then YES ...
i'm gonna speculate that if you are fantasizing about having sex with your gf for the purpose of having a mutually beneficial experience that is as much about the connection and feelings you have for each other - then NO ... but if your sole purpose is to have sex with her so you can get off and you just are using her because she's available - then YES ...
You've never had wild passionate animal sex with a partner that's based solely on physical pleasure? It's always got some deep, soul-gazing, spiritual component? You're missing out...
i'm gonna speculate that if you are fantasizing about having sex with your gf for the purpose of having a mutually beneficial experience that is as much about the connection and feelings you have for each other - then NO ... but if your sole purpose is to have sex with her so you can get off and you just are using her because she's available - then YES ...
I'm not exactly sure how...but your post, due to it's awareness, is highlighting how men can cheat themselves out of really, really Amazing sex...on levels that they can't even begin to imagine....
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
And the response is... what's so wrong about imagining having sex with someone? Since when did fantasy become evil? Unless one takes it to the extent that we approach that person and attempt to get them to fulfill that fantasy with no regard to their opinion on the matter, what's the big deal? Are you saying it is impossible to ever fantasize about having sex with someone while still treating them with respect and dignity? That's absurd.
Jesus, you people must lead dull lives. I can't imagine a life without the joy of using my imagination.
Fantasy definitely isn't evil at all. And it's surely not impossible to fantasize without objectifying.
And let's just say, that in terms of having more "mind" (as opposed to groin) -boggling sex, or enLightened sex, or sex that is beyond your wildest dreams, 'vibes' is everything. And vibes aren't these vague intangible things...they are how we unconsciously show our intentions to people all the time, outside our own awareness. Some people read/hear these vibes unconsciously, and come to their assessments, and others are well aware of what signals we put out, and what they say about us. Hence, natural selection.....
Those who understand do. Those who do not, do not.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
i'm gonna speculate that if you are fantasizing about having sex with your gf for the purpose of having a mutually beneficial experience that is as much about the connection and feelings you have for each other - then NO ... but if your sole purpose is to have sex with her so you can get off and you just are using her because she's available - then YES ...
For the most part it's for the benefits of both of us, but sometimes I want to have sex just so I can get my rocks off and sometimes she just wants to have sex to get her jollies.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
And let's just say, that in terms of having more "mind" (as opposed to groin) -boggling sex, or enLightened sex, or sex that is beyond your wildest dreams, 'vibes' is everything. And vibes aren't these vague intangible things...they are how we unconsciously show our intentions to people all the time, outside our own awareness. Some people read/hear these vibes unconsciously, and come to their assessments, and others are well aware of what signals we put out, and what they say about us. Hence, natural selection.....
Those who understand do. Those who do not, do not.
See these are the posts that irk me because you come off as having some higher enlightenment than other, which is certainly not the case. I don't have to spend my time off huddled in the self help section of my local Barnes & Noble to reach some form of enlightenment.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
I'm not exactly sure how...but your post, due to it's awareness, is highlighting how men can cheat themselves out of really, really Amazing sex...on levels that they can't even begin to imagine....
You've never had wild passionate animal sex with a partner that's based solely on physical pleasure? It's always got some deep, soul-gazing, spiritual component? You're missing out...
uhhh ... i'm not sure how you got that from my response ...
Advancement is advancement. What I did say is that the only difference between levels of evolution is the person's level of subjective pain. So, for example, one at a holistic level lives with a lot of joy and bliss. One on other levels, more "good"/"bad".
Attraction is the natural response. Objectification, as I am using the term, what we do with that attraction... when you look at someone like an object, without regard for who they are as a person (thoughts/feelings/intuitions), and in this context, further, when one tunes the humanity out, and chooses to seek sexual gratification for themselves, with this "object", on whatever level one does so, whether physically, mentally, emotionally or spiritually.
wow...i am very holistic i live with a LOT of joy and bliss. i just never found the need to label it as holistic. seems just different labels from 'good' and 'bad'...but still a label.
and i guess it really comes down to one's definition of objectification, but i still fail to see how one can do anything else with the 'attraction' to a total stranger in a picture, on the bus, on the train...than objectify. obviously, i am well aware of this 'person'.....and that they possess thoughts/feelings/intuitions.....but if all i am doing is looking at them, the only information i can garner is physical.
I'm not exactly sure how...but your post, due to it's awareness, is highlighting how men can cheat themselves out of really, really Amazing sex...on levels that they can't even begin to imagine....
my thoughts exactly. seems some bias presented in that statement. of course, my own inference.
i believe ANYone is capable of doing so.
however, i don't think of it as 'cheating oneself' per se. some may, some may not reach the highest levels of sexual/spiritual statisfaction, but what they don't know...they really won't miss. however, even those who 'know'.......even just sex for the sake of the phsycial is pretty damn specatular, so i don't really see it as not so fun to engage in on occasion. it's fun ti mix it up?
And let's just say, that in terms of having more "mind" (as opposed to groin) -boggling sex, or enLightened sex, or sex that is beyond your wildest dreams, 'vibes' is everything. And vibes aren't these vague intangible things...they are how we unconsciously show our intentions to people all the time, outside our own awareness. Some people read/hear these vibes unconsciously, and come to their assessments, and others are well aware of what signals we put out, and what they say about us. Hence, natural selection.....
Those who understand do. Those who do not, do not.
I won't deny that can be good. I had such a connection with the last girl I dated and there were many nights of very passionate, emotional sex. But it all started because I noticed her at work and thought she was smoking hot and I wanted to screw her brains out. So I approached her and started chatting and found other connections. Even so, there were times where I fantasized about nothing more than raw, physical sex without emotion. And there were times I simply threw her on the bed and had my way. She enjoyed that as well. Variety is the spice of life and sometimes throwing feelings out the window and just allowing ourselves to be the hedonistic animals we are can be every bit as fulfilling as any deep, spiritual experience. And the fact that I sometimes thought about nothing more than how physically attractive she was did not in any way inhibit my ability to love her and treat her as a human being that I cared about. The two are not mutually exclusive.
in that context, in that post, we were talking about a man fantasizing about having sex with his girlfriend...would you like to talk about the vast majority of women who do the same thing? They exist! As a majority!
Women as a majority, though, tend to be conditioned more emotionally and intuitively (source: MBTI personality typing). and therefore are more predisposed to taking things to less physical levels and more to emotional/spiritual o nes. And at the same time, since women are pursuing "equality" they are also changing their brain chemistry, and losing some of their natural "feminine" strengths in terms of the more traditionally "feminine" brain-preferences.(source: Mona Lisa Schulz, neuropsychiatrist, in her book: "The New Feminine Brain")...So, there are no hard/fast rules...but you can assess situation to situation, for sure..... just like with men....
Back to what polaris and Saturnal are expressing...this increased consciousness for males, into sexual matters....the results of an increased consciousness, awareness, and sensitivity to sexual matters pays off.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
sometimes throwing feelings out the window and just allowing ourselves to be the hedonistic animals we are can be every bit as fulfilling as any deep, spiritual experience.
If you define yourself as a hedonistic animal, then of course that kinda sex can be totally fulfilling
I won't deny that can be good. I had such a connection with the last girl I dated and there were many nights of very passionate, emotional sex. But it all started because I noticed her at work and thought she was smoking hot and I wanted to screw her brains out. So I approached her and started chatting and found other connections. Even so, there were times where I fantasized about nothing more than raw, physical sex without emotion. And there were times I simply threw her on the bed and had my way. She enjoyed that as well. Variety is the spice of life and sometimes throwing feelings out the window and just allowing ourselves to be the hedonistic animals we are can be every bit as fulfilling as any deep, spiritual experience. And the fact that I sometimes thought about nothing more than how physically attractive she was did not in any way inhibit my ability to love her and treat her as a human being that I cared about. The two are not mutually exclusive.
well said.
and absolutely fitting with
those who understand, do. those who do not do not. there is no *one* way to true fulfillment in life and in all things.
If you define yourself as a hedonistic animal, then of course that kinda sex can be totally fulfilling
ANYthing can be 'totally fulfilling' if you choose to find it totally fulfilling. one does not need to *grade* every experience in life, put it on a sliding scale....and just appreciate things for what they are, as is....enjoy them.
so 'that kinda sex' can absolutely be totally fulfilling if you want it to be...and if you don't, it won't be. even this higher plane emotional sex can be absolutely fulfilling...or not. it really is what we choose it to be.
amazing how the topic of legalized prostitution has morphed. i love this board.
Comments
If that's a little too complicated for you, I'll try to dumb it down the next time...............;)
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
.....too difficult to understand?
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Seems to me, if someone is looking to understand, it's all right there...
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
So in essence you are saying that if I do not connect with the women on some spiritual or emotional level then it is not OK. So I ask how can you connect, on these levels, with a complete stranger or a picture in a magazine.
There is a difference but neither of them means that you don't respect her as a person. If I sit at work and fantasize about going home and having sex with my girlfriend am I objectifying her.
I know you'll make the right decisions for you, which is all anyone can ask.
I haven't once presumed what people should or should not do. I have spoken for myself, and for the holistic perspective. Also, I have defined objectification as I understand it.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
And the response is... what's so wrong about imagining having sex with someone? Since when did fantasy become evil? Unless one takes it to the extent that we approach that person and attempt to get them to fulfill that fantasy with no regard to their opinion on the matter, what's the big deal? Are you saying it is impossible to ever fantasize about having sex with someone while still treating them with respect and dignity? That's absurd.
Jesus, you people must lead dull lives. I can't imagine a life without the joy of using my imagination.
i'm gonna speculate that if you are fantasizing about having sex with your gf for the purpose of having a mutually beneficial experience that is as much about the connection and feelings you have for each other - then NO ... but if your sole purpose is to have sex with her so you can get off and you just are using her because she's available - then YES ...
You've never had wild passionate animal sex with a partner that's based solely on physical pleasure? It's always got some deep, soul-gazing, spiritual component? You're missing out...
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Those who understand do. Those who do not, do not.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
For the most part it's for the benefits of both of us, but sometimes I want to have sex just so I can get my rocks off and sometimes she just wants to have sex to get her jollies.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
See these are the posts that irk me because you come off as having some higher enlightenment than other, which is certainly not the case. I don't have to spend my time off huddled in the self help section of my local Barnes & Noble to reach some form of enlightenment.
Only men eh?
As long as the fantasy involved a bed of roses and scented candles and a setting from a harlequin romance novel I presume.
uhhh ... i'm not sure how you got that from my response ...
I guess most of us just don't get it.
wow...i am very holistic
and i guess it really comes down to one's definition of objectification, but i still fail to see how one can do anything else with the 'attraction' to a total stranger in a picture, on the bus, on the train...than objectify. obviously, i am well aware of this 'person'.....and that they possess thoughts/feelings/intuitions.....but if all i am doing is looking at them, the only information i can garner is physical.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
feel free to enlighten me ... i'm all ears ...
my thoughts exactly. seems some bias presented in that statement. of course, my own inference.
i believe ANYone is capable of doing so.
however, i don't think of it as 'cheating oneself' per se. some may, some may not reach the highest levels of sexual/spiritual statisfaction, but what they don't know...they really won't miss. however, even those who 'know'.......even just sex for the sake of the phsycial is pretty damn specatular, so i don't really see it as not so fun to engage in on occasion. it's fun ti mix it up?
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I won't deny that can be good. I had such a connection with the last girl I dated and there were many nights of very passionate, emotional sex. But it all started because I noticed her at work and thought she was smoking hot and I wanted to screw her brains out. So I approached her and started chatting and found other connections. Even so, there were times where I fantasized about nothing more than raw, physical sex without emotion. And there were times I simply threw her on the bed and had my way. She enjoyed that as well. Variety is the spice of life and sometimes throwing feelings out the window and just allowing ourselves to be the hedonistic animals we are can be every bit as fulfilling as any deep, spiritual experience. And the fact that I sometimes thought about nothing more than how physically attractive she was did not in any way inhibit my ability to love her and treat her as a human being that I cared about. The two are not mutually exclusive.
in that context, in that post, we were talking about a man fantasizing about having sex with his girlfriend...would you like to talk about the vast majority of women who do the same thing? They exist! As a majority!
Women as a majority, though, tend to be conditioned more emotionally and intuitively (source: MBTI personality typing). and therefore are more predisposed to taking things to less physical levels and more to emotional/spiritual o nes. And at the same time, since women are pursuing "equality" they are also changing their brain chemistry, and losing some of their natural "feminine" strengths in terms of the more traditionally "feminine" brain-preferences.(source: Mona Lisa Schulz, neuropsychiatrist, in her book: "The New Feminine Brain")...So, there are no hard/fast rules...but you can assess situation to situation, for sure..... just like with men....
Back to what polaris and Saturnal are expressing...this increased consciousness for males, into sexual matters....the results of an increased consciousness, awareness, and sensitivity to sexual matters pays off.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
well said.
and absolutely fitting with
those who understand, do. those who do not do not. there is no *one* way to true fulfillment in life and in all things.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
It's evolution baby. But no matter how evolved we are, we're still animals amigo. Gotta feed the Id sometimes.
ANYthing can be 'totally fulfilling' if you choose to find it totally fulfilling. one does not need to *grade* every experience in life, put it on a sliding scale....and just appreciate things for what they are, as is....enjoy them.
so 'that kinda sex' can absolutely be totally fulfilling if you want it to be...and if you don't, it won't be. even this higher plane emotional sex can be absolutely fulfilling...or not. it really is what we choose it to be.
amazing how the topic of legalized prostitution has morphed.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow