Prostitution

_

mammasan wrote:

I don't know if I understood you clearly, and I apologize if i didn't, but are you saying that acts of pedophilia stem from the objectification of women. If that is the case I honestly and completely disagree. I can see how rape can be viewed this way but not pedophilia.

But pedophilia is rape. How does age (or lack thereof) make it any better/different? It may have an added component, but it's still just as objectifying as the rape of adults, plus young girls' bodies are sexually objectified as well.

angelica

mammasan wrote:

I don't know if I understood you clearly, and I apologize if i didn't, but are you saying that acts of pedophilia stem from the objectification of women. If that is the case I honestly and completely disagree. I can see how rape can be viewed this way but not pedophilia.

As I said earlier, the general meaning of objectification is when one treats another as an object, tuning out their feelings. It's very clear that when one is orally penetrating a five year old child, one has tuned out the child's feelings and is treating the child like an object, rather than as a human being. And as I pointed out, the sexual assault of our female children happens a LOT in our civilized society. Objectification may or may not be a cause, even though it certainly underlies many of our dysfunctions. this is why I say we pay a huge cost for the fact that it is normal for us to teach our children to tune out their feelings. (in my experience, this is a normal practise) We generally don't focus on the fact that we do this, nor have the insight or understanding into the consequences. For example, how do we as a civilized society have so many sexually assaulted girl children? We don't really focus on this. It almost doesn't fit with how we see ourselves because we seem to want to identify with our ideals, rather than the reality. In my case, none of those who sexually assaulted me before adulthood were adults...when I was 5, the offenders were teenage boys. When I was 16, they were also teenage boys. Although these were situations of abuse, and abuses of power, they were not instances of pedophilia. And granted, I'm sure many of these cases involving children are. Whatever the case, tuning out the humanity of another person while one focuses on their own sexual gratification is .... objectification.

mammasan

scb wrote:

But pedophilia is rape. How does age (or lack thereof) make it any better/different? It may have an added component, but it's still just as objectifying as the rape of adults, plus young girls' bodies are sexually objectified as well.

I was under the impression that the number of boys and girls where where sexually abused as child where pretty even. That would run contrary to it stemming from the objectification of women. Also, and please correct me if I'm wrong, objectification has a sense of sexuality attached to it. Women are objectified because of their sexual attraction and their beauty. While a pedophile is attracted to you girls and boys it can be argued that they are not sexual beings being too young to understand their sexuality.

VictoryGin

scb wrote:

But pedophilia is rape. How does age (or lack thereof) make it any better/different? It may have an added component, but it's still just as objectifying as the rape of adults, plus young girls' bodies are sexually objectified as well.

it's easier to commit acts of violence against something one objectifies because when one objectifies, one removes a sense of respect, equality, intelligence, other things associated with being a person---a person like the one who is objectifying. we perpetuate the cycle as we participate. violence will continue.

angelica

mammasan wrote:

Also, and please correct me if I'm wrong, objectification has a sense of sexuality attached to it. Women are objectified because of their sexual attraction and their beauty.

you are wrong. They are objectified when the person doing the objectification is showing a lack. It's not about sexuality.

mammasan

angelica wrote:

As I said earlier, the general meaning of objectification is when one treats another as an object, tuning out their feelings. It's very clear that when one is orally penetrating a five year old child, one has tuned out the child's feelings and is treating the child like an object, rather than as a human being. And as I pointed out, the sexual assault of our female children happens a LOT in our civilized society. Objectification may or may not be a cause, even though it certainly underlies many of our dysfunctions. this is why I say we pay a huge cost for the fact that it is normal for us to teach our children to tune out their feelings. (in my experience, this is a normal practise) We generally don't focus on the fact that we do this, nor have the insight or understanding into the consequences. For example, how do we as a civilized society have so many sexually assaulted girl children? We don't really focus on this. It almost doesn't fit with how we see ourselves because we seem to want to identify with our ideals, rather than the reality. In my case, none of those who sexually assaulted me before adulthood were adults...when I was 5, the offenders were teenage boys. When I was 16, they were also teenage boys. Although these were situations of abuse, and abuses of power, they were not instances of pedophilia. And granted, I'm sure many of these cases involving children are. Whatever the case, tuning out the humanity of another person while one focuses on their own sexual gratification is .... objectification.

I misunderstood what you where saying at first and I would definitely agree with what you are saying. Victims of pedophilia, rape, incest, etc... are definitely viewed as objects by their attackers. I think in cases of rape though that societies tendency to portray women as merely sexual eye candy may help promote rape to people who are already desensitized to the feelings and health of others. I don't see that as being the case with pedophilia as children are not presented in the same manner by society so that is why I originally disagreed with you, but none the less as you said they are all treated as objects rather than people.

Wilds

scb wrote:

I'm just trying to be realistic. In the U.S. right now, they don't have regulated working conditions, many have made the choice out of desperation, and many are on drugs. Given that the sex slave industry is huge worldwide, it's often much worse outside the U.S. with children being forced into prostitution. And this is not to mention that women are at greater risk than men physically, whether they are otherwise vulnerable or not.

I don't think the situation you portray is representative of the vast majority of prostitutes in the world.

Agreed the situation I portrayed does not represent the world as it is. But I have tried to stay true to the original theme. Should prostitution be legal.

I say yes, and I believe as a regulated industry (like in Nevada, or Amsterdam), we begin to shed away some of the issues that plague the industry now. Perhaps even to the extent that there is not a victim, and no power play, just two consenting adults making a business transaction.

If we as a society allowed prostitution and didn't force it into the ugliest corners of the criminal world, then it could be a transaction as simple as buying a loaf of bread. And thought of without negative stigmatism.

From reading this thread it seems as if some might disagree, and there is some thought it seems that if women were not oppressed, or if women were not objectified by men, then prostitution would disappear as an industry.

I think this is unrealistic and ignores our basic DNA. Some men might go to prostitutes to objectify them, but most go because they want to have sex. (Nothing sinister about that.)

angelica

mammasan wrote:

I was under the impression that the number of boys and girls where where sexually abused as child where pretty even. That would run contrary to it stemming from the objectification of women.

"Approximately 20% to 25% of women and 5% to 15% of men were sexually abused when they were children"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse

We do know the vast majority of people doing this objectification, of girls and boys, are males.

mammasan

I think we are on two different pages here. When I say objectification I am referring to the way society portrays women as sexually arousing eye candy. Obviously there are other forms of objectifying a human being, which seems what Angelica and scb are referring to. I agree that violent acts against another human being does in part stem from objectifications. I would think that an attacker would have to view their victim as nothing more than an object in order to perpetrate some horrible act upon them.

mammasan

angelica wrote:

"Approximately 20% to 25% of women and 5% to 15% of men were sexually abused when they were children"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse

We do know the vast majority of people doing this objectification, of girls and boys, are males.

I knew that the vast majority of offender where male but I was under the, misinformed, impression that there was not such a huge gap between the victim's gender.

_

mammasan wrote:

I was under the impression that the number of boys and girls where where sexually abused as child where pretty even. That would run contrary to it stemming from the objectification of women.

That's an interesting theory, and I see your point. I was thinking more about how young teenage girls are sexualized in the media, and how it's considered sexy to dress like a little girl, for instance.

But, regarding your point, I would argue that perhaps socializing men to objectify women teaches them to objectify people in general, and that includes young boys who they can control.

mammasan wrote:

Also, and please correct me if I'm wrong, objectification has a sense of sexuality attached to it. Women are objectified because of their sexual attraction and their beauty. While a pedophile is attracted to you girls and boys it can be argued that they are not sexual beings being too young to understand their sexuality.

But it's not about the sexuality of the object so much as it's about how that object can gratify the sexuality of the one doing the objectifying. (Does that make sense?) So the object does not have to be aware of his/her own sexuality.

VictoryGin

polaris wrote:

not necessarily mutually exclusive but when the symptoms are the same sometimes we are too quick to diagnose one thing when it could be something else ...

are societal conditions set up to favour a certain demographic over others and "forcing" people to conform or be subjected to the injustices we are talking about?

are you asking if society either 1. forces people to conform or 2. forces people to be subjected? i'm sorry i'm trying to write a paper and so i'm not quick to be clear on your question---also because if that's what you're asking i think it can be both but that's a good question i need to think about . . . after this paper.

_

VictoryGin wrote:

it's easier to commit acts of violence against something one objectifies because when one objectifies, one removes a sense of respect, equality, intelligence, other things associated with being a person---a person like the one who is objectifying. we perpetuate the cycle as we participate. violence will continue.

This reminds me of that scene in Silence of the Lambs where the crazy guy was keeping the woman in the dungeon and kept referring to her in the 3rd person, as "it". :eek:

angelica

mammasan wrote:

I misunderstood what you where saying at first and I would definitely agree with what you are saying. Victims of pedophilia, rape, incest, etc... are definitely viewed as objects by their attackers. I think in cases of rape though that societies tendency to portray women as merely sexual eye candy may help promote rape to people who are already desensitized to the feelings and health of others. I don't see that as being the case with pedophilia as children are not presented in the same manner by society so that is why I originally disagreed with you, but none the less as you said they are all treated as objects rather than people.

I do agree that society portraying women as eye-candy desensitizes people. I consider that objectification. It's very common, and happens with children, too (this sexualization/objectification of them), as I think scb said. Desensitization is a large part of some common issues of objectification of women through pornography, that some/many of us women take issue with and which has been proven to be a large issue in desensitizing men to women in terms of gratification. By proven, I mean in scientific studies. This desensitization is not just one playing into rape, but into the common objectification of and desensitization to women.

_

Wilds wrote:

Agreed the situation I portrayed does not represent the world as it is. But I have tried to stay true to the original theme. Should prostitution be legal.

I say yes, and I believe as a regulated industry (like in Nevada, or Amsterdam), we begin to shed away some of the issues that plague the industry now. Perhaps even to the extent that there is not a victim, and no power play, just two consenting adults making a business transaction.

If we as a society allowed prostitution and didn't force it into the ugliest corners of the criminal world, then it could be a transaction as simple as buying a loaf of bread. And thought of without negative stigmatism.

From reading this thread it seems as if some might disagree, and there is some thought it seems that if women were not oppressed, or if women were not objectified by men, then prostitution would disappear as an industry.

I think this is unrealistic and ignores our basic DNA. Some men might go to prostitutes to objectify them, but most go because they want to have sex. (Nothing sinister about that.)

Oh, well you threw me off by staying on topic! I think I've seen most people, if not everyone, in this thread agree that prostitution should be legal, and I don't think I've read anyone state that they believe it will ever go away 100%. But that's not to say that women shouldn't be objectified and that prostitution is not part of (or a result of) that process.

VictoryGin

angelica wrote:

"Approximately 20% to 25% of women and 5% to 15% of men were sexually abused when they were children"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse

We do know the vast majority of people doing this objectification, of girls and boys, are males.

i recently read the most fascinating study (to me) about people with disassociative identity disorder. this is kind of OT, but women develop DID at much higher rates than men. DID occurs in people who experienced severe abuse and neglect as children. not only do women experience DID at much higher rates, they have more personalities than men with DID have. like double. and the personalities in everyone are amazingly gendered as stereotypical gender roles. the protector, the persecutor, are male, the child is female. it lends amazing support to socialization of gender roles. god i have to do my paper. seriously.

mammasan

scb wrote:

That's an interesting theory, and I see your point. I was thinking more about how young teenage girls are sexualized in the media, and how it's considered sexy to dress like a little girl, for instance.

But, regarding your point, I would argue that perhaps socializing men to objectify women teaches them to objectify people in general, and that includes young boys who they can control.



But it's not about the sexuality of the object so much as it's about how that object can gratify the sexuality of the one doing the objectifying. (Does that make sense?) So the object does not have to be aware of his/her own sexuality.

I definitely think that the medias over-sexualization of teenage girls can lead to more instances of rape in that age group. I'm not saying that it will make a perfectly normal teenage boy go out and start raping girls his age but it can definitely affect a boy, or girl, who already has a certain level of desensitization or emotional detachment. The same applies for adults when they are constantly bombarded with images of scantily clad seductive women. It can easily be misrepresented, by an already confused mind, that women (or men) are simply objects for our own desires and pleasure.

As far as pedophilia, it is a bit harder for me to grasp since I can't possible see children as a means to fulfill my sexual desires. Even though i would never rape a women I can fully understand the desire to want to have sex with an attractive women, not through force of course. With children though it is unimaginable to me how some one can see them in that manner.So i guess that is why i have a hard time corralating pedophilia with sexual objectification.

Wilds

scb wrote:

Oh, well you threw me off by staying on topic! I think I've seen most people, if not everyone, in this thread agree that prostitution should be legal, and I don't think I've read anyone state that they believe it will ever go away 100%. But that's not to say that women shouldn't be objectified and that prostitution is not part of (or a result of) that process.

Fair points.

mammasan

angelica wrote:

I do agree that society portraying women as eye-candy desensitizes people. I consider that objectification. It's very common, and happens with children, too (this sexualization/objectification of them), as I think scb said. Desensitization is a large part of some common issues of objectification of women through pornography, that some/many of us women take issue with and which has been proven to be a large issue in desensitizing men to women in terms of gratification. By proven, I mean in scientific studies. This desensitization is not just one playing into rape, but into the common objectification of and desensitization to women.

I'm not arguing with you. As I stated, after you elaborated a bit more on your point, that i completely agree with. The desensitization of women is definitely hand in hand with objectification. I also agree that our society, especially the media, has in large part brought teenage girls into this as well. I see it everyday with my girlfriend's 13 year old daughter and her friends. Some of her friends dress so provocative that I am embarrassed to be in the same house as them. Here are these, what I still consider little girls, walking around as if they where Playboy Playmates and I find that extremely disturbing. The way society has objectified women has largely stolen these young girls childhood, in my opinion.

angelica

VictoryGin wrote:

i recently read the most fascinating study (to me) about people with disassociative identity disorder. this is kind of OT, but women develop DID at much higher rates than men. DID occurs in people who experienced severe abuse and neglect as children. not only do women experience DID at much higher rates, they have more personalities than men with DID have. like double. and the personalities in everyone are amazingly gendered as stereotypical gender roles. the protector, the persecutor, are male, the child is female. it lends amazing support to socialization of gender roles. god i have to do my paper. seriously.

DID is fascinating. I've read books on it for years, and since I've been working in Crisis services, it's amazing to be able to interact with these people front and centre.

Speaking of disassociation on a different level,...after my first few sexual assaults, the last major one I experienced as an adult, the minute it started, and considering I was telling the person "no" clearly, and he was clearly not listening, I just disassociated wtihout realizing it. So "I", was down a long tunnel, detached from him, even though he was right in front of me assaulting me. He didn't even realize that I was vacant--gone. He thought I gave up my "fight" and sense of "not wanting it". The disassociation prevented me from fighting back, or more adamantly stopping him, and this was due to earlier traumas that were not yet resolved, but that I had hived off somewhere, but that suddenly overloaded my mind. After the assault, my sister who was in another room when it happened, blamed me because I didn't cry "rape".

I looked up this person who perpetrated this assault on me this year, and he genuinely had no idea what happened. He accepted full accountability for my experience, and for the fact that he didn't listen to my "no". It was only when I wrote about the experience in the book I'm writing that I realized how often I've disassociated, and while it protected my psyche, it didn't not lend to the prevention of occuring assaults.

On the other hand, I spent years being able to account these atrocities, because I didn't feel the hurt they caused. And by the time I did feel the hurt, and reassociate to my experience, I had the tools to feel safe and okay.

Our human systems and how we deal with trauma is amazing.

This same disassociation would have enabled me to be a mighty fine prostitute, in that I have been able to be totally detached of the sex act while partaking of it. For years sex was a big issue of control for me. Sadly, in the way that often the abused become abusers, I was emotionally tuned out, and therefore tuned out from the emotions of those I was interacting with. The thing was, I seemed confident, and well-adjusted about it. The problem is that I could come of as 'together' if I wanted to, and yet I hid my many inner traumas and deep pain from even myself. I don't doubt that such unconscious content led me to the ongoing revictimization I continually attracted to myself until I reclaimed my truth, whereupon it all stopped.