Prostitution

mammasan

scb wrote:

I'm just saying you don't have any knowledge of how intact my clitoris is.

Ok you are right, I don't know the condition your clitoris is in.

VictoryGin

mammasan wrote:

Look if it puts a smile on your face and makes your day your right and I'm wrong. Women are oppressed, men are oppressed, we are all oppressed for some reason or another. God what miserable oppressed lives we all lead.

day, you're

you haven't yet learned your lesson

Collin

scb wrote:

Wait - aren't you the one who's always saying men ARE oppressed as well, and talking about sexism against men, etc.??

I'm not always saying that

I believe inequalities exist for men and women. I believe both men and women are being discriminated against, and both are treated unfairly.

Anyway, if oppression is the unjust treatment of someone then yes men are definitely being oppressed.

This kind of goes against that theory you threw at me the last couple of times. You know, that power + prejudice = oppression and that those in power cannot be oppressed. With those in power you meant men.

Patience, my friend, I'm falling behind on this thread...

No hurry, I'm going to a party and will reply tomorrow. Well, better get some money because I'll have to pay to get in unlike the females

Are you asking me if women become prostitutes solely because they get paid less than men and are restricted by a "glass ceiling"? No, I don't think it's all about that. I think it's much more complicated than that.

Yes, that was what I was asking, the reason why is this:

mammasan wrote:

I'm sorry but if you choose to sell your body for money because you want to make easy money then that is their choice to be objectified. They could get a job elsewhere, making less, and retain some dignity. Don't place the blame on society, these women are adults and their decisions are their own.

VictoryGin wrote:

yeah. they could get a job elsewhere where they face discrimination in the hiring process, unequal pay for equal work, and sexual harassment. but, hey, they'll have dignity.

This and the notion that if women weren't being oppressed - see glass ceiling - and objectified that prostitution wouldn't be seen as a last resort.

I have already explained why I think it'll always be there and it'll always been seen as a last resort even if we get rid of the oppression of women and the objectification. I believe you didn't entirely disagree.

polaris

VictoryGin wrote:

i'm a huge advocate of the theory of interlocking oppressions. the problem with that and this thread is that i don't have the time to write a dissertation on it, which is why it may look like i'm only a believer that women are oppressed.

oppression and inequality aren't exactly the same thing. oppression includes the element of power over another. i'm not saying this to you polaris, but addressing other things in the thread. so white, middle or upper class men can hardly be oppressed in situations in which they have the racial, economic, and gender power advantage.

oh and scb if you read this, i think of anyone here you can probably speak for me. you haven't misconstrued anything i've said.

i question whether it is actually oppression or a societal pressure to conform? ... it is clear that whether you are looking at jobs and opportunity or even bike lanes - things are geared towards a certain demographic ... is it a matter of wanting women to conform or oppressing them?

mammasan

VictoryGin wrote:

day, you're

you haven't yet learned your lesson

What can I say besides being a horrible speller I am stubborn as hell.

Collin

VictoryGin wrote:

so white, middle or upper class men can hardly be oppressed in situations in which they have the racial, economic, and gender power advantage.

oppression: unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power

Unjust exercise of authority or power. Believe me, men suffer from this as well.

But men cannot oppress men therefore men aren't oppressed.

Either way, I believe the patriachal society that oppresses is male and female.

_

Wilds wrote:

I don't understand how the "john" has the power? It is not a boss/underling relationship.

It is two consenting adults making a proper transaction.

When you(female) go and get a massage at a spa, does the (female) client have the power over the masseur(female)? (for example)

I don't see how there is a power angle? please clarify?

We are not talking about rape here, just casual, for payment sex.

I say the John has the power because prostitutes (as a group) are a vulnerable population. They are frequently either being forced to do this or are in some compromising, desperate life circumdstance. Many are very young. Most are women, which puts them at greater risk of rape, other physical assault, STDs, and pregnancy. Oftentimes they need to get high in order to numb themselves up enough to engage in the act, which puts them in a vulnerable position as well. Many are homeless. Et cetera.

I guess the primary contributing factor, though, is the desperation that put them in this situation in the first place.

ladygooddiva

i say prostitutation underage should be forbitten for sure !!!!
if the women really wantto do that it should be legal
b y force forbitten for sure
and there should be one street in each city for that sh...nowhere else
no bordeles elswhere
and marriage for money ....there are scouts for that sh...

_Crazy_Mary_

I think, if I were to vote on it, I would vote to legalize prostitution. Think about the taxes those whores would start paying!
Yay for hookers!

_

VictoryGin wrote:

i'm a huge advocate of the theory of interlocking oppressions. the problem with that and this thread is that i don't have the time to write a dissertation on it, which is why it may look like i'm only a believer that women are oppressed.

oppression and inequality aren't exactly the same thing. oppression includes the element of power over another. i'm not saying this to you polaris, but addressing other things in the thread. so white, middle or upper class men can hardly be oppressed in situations in which they have the racial, economic, and gender power advantage.

oh and scb if you read this, i think of anyone here you can probably speak for me. you haven't misconstrued anything i've said.

Thanks! At least I'm pretty sure I understand the ideas you're trying to explain, and I agree with them.

VictoryGin

Collin wrote:

oppression: unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power

Unjust exercise of authority or power. Believe me, men suffer from this as well.

But men cannot oppress men therefore men aren't oppressed.

Either way, I believe the patriachal society that oppresses is male and female.

men can be oppressed in racial and class ways.

VictoryGin

polaris wrote:

i question whether it is actually oppression or a societal pressure to conform? ... it is clear that whether you are looking at jobs and opportunity or even bike lanes - things are geared towards a certain demographic ... is it a matter of wanting women to conform or oppressing them?

are those mutually exclusive?

oh god i really have to my work now but i think you're asking a good question and just not totally sure i follow.

polaris

VictoryGin wrote:

are those mutually exclusive?

oh god i really have to my work now but i think you're asking a good question and just not totally sure i follow.

not necessarily mutually exclusive but when the symptoms are the same sometimes we are too quick to diagnose one thing when it could be something else ...

are societal conditions set up to favour a certain demographic over others and "forcing" people to conform or be subjected to the injustices we are talking about?

angelica

scb wrote:

IAlso, to add to your point about objectificaiton: Perhaps if women were not objectified we wouldn't learn from a young age that our sexuality is our most valuable asset, and therefore resort to selling that when we need money or affirmation.

Very true. My first sexual assault occurred when I was five years old and was orally sodomized. The third happened when I was sixteen, which is how I lost my virginity. It's not rocket science to see where my overly sexualized self, and my friends got our sense of identifying mainly with our sexuality, enough to send us towards the sex trade. 1 in 4 girls are sexually assaulted before adulthood. We must ask ourselves how is this happening? There is a LOT of objectification that gives the men who are doing these assaults the ability to blot out the feelings of a five year old child, for example. Or of a teenage girl saying "please don't, I'm a virgin" over and over, words falling on deaf ears. Real serious objectification. I spent many years in the realm of 'lower' functioning, and found many, many others like myself who were there along side me. And it was commonplace and normal that such happenings went on. I publicly speak in high schools...I just got home from a gig now. I told the kids at this alternative school...for many years I thought it was normal, acceptable behaviour to wake up and find my varying boyfriends having sex with me--an act that in each instance began without consent while I was asleep...because it was so common that it happened to me over and over, and when I spoke about it to others on my level, they also felt it was normal and common.

We have many rights that entitle women to equality, and they stem from theory and from the law, and don't as yet reflect where are are in terms of outcome as a society. Those laws are based on ideal principles, and are very, very much different than men and women operating in a balanced and equal way as commonplace. The reality is we operate under a patriarchal way, and it shows up over and over and over to the detriment of us all.

_

Collin wrote:

I'm not always saying that

I believe inequalities exist for men and women. I believe both men and women are being discriminated against, and both are treated unfairly.

Anyway, if oppression is the unjust treatment of someone then yes men are definitely being oppressed.

This kind of goes against that theory you threw at me the last couple of times. You know, that power + prejudice = oppression and that those in power cannot be oppressed. With those in power you meant men.

Aw... you DO pay attention! I'm flattered!

Collin wrote:

No hurry, I'm going to a party and will reply tomorrow. Well, better get some money because I'll have to pay to get in unlike the females

Hey, man, you've gotta pay for your opportunity to objectify the hot young women in those parties!

Collin wrote:

Yes, that was what I was asking, the reason why is this:



This and the notion that if women weren't being oppressed - see glass ceiling - and objectified that prostitution wouldn't be seen as a last resort.

I have already explained why I think it'll always be there and it'll always been seen as a last resort even if we get rid of the oppression of women and the objectification. I believe you didn't entirely disagree.

Yeah, I don't think we'll ever 100% get rid of prostitution, but it's because I don't think we'll ever 100% get rid of objectification.

I think it's all very complicated and multi-faceted and, since you quoted VG, I'll say I think she would agree.

_

angelica wrote:

Very true. My first sexual assault occurred when I was five years old and was orally sodomized. The third happened when I was sixteen, which is how I lost my virginity. It's not rocket science to see where my overly sexualized self, and my friends got our sense of identifying mainly with our sexuality, enough to send us towards the sex trade. 1 in 4 girls are sexually assaulted before adulthood. We must ask ourselves how is this happening? There is a LOT of objectification that gives the men who are doing these assaults the ability to blot out the feelings of a five year old child, for example. Or of a teenage girl saying "please don't, I'm a virgin" over and over, words falling on deaf ears. Real serious objectification. I spent many years in the realm of 'lower' functioning, and found many, many others like myself who were there along side me. And it was commonplace and normal that such happenings went on. I publicly speak in high schools...I just got home from a gig now. I told the kids at this alternative school...for many years I thought it was normal, acceptable behaviour to wake up and find my varying boyfriends having sex with me--an act that in each instance began without consent while I was asleep...because it was so common that it happened to me over and over, and when I spoke about it to others on my level, they also felt it was normal and common.

We have many rights that entitle women to equality, and they stem from theory and from the law, and don't as yet reflect where are are in terms of outcome as a society. Those laws are based on ideal principles, and are very, very much different than men and women operating in a balanced and equal way as commonplace. The reality is we operate under a patriarchal way, and it shows up over and over and over to the detriment of us all.

I completely agree. And I think it's an extremely important point that many, many sex workers were/are sexually abused at some point. I'm really sorry that happened to you.

Wilds

scb wrote:

I say the John has the power because prostitutes (as a group) are a vulnerable population. They are frequently either being forced to do this or are in some compromising, desperate life circumdstance. Many are very young. Most are women, which puts them at greater risk of rape, other physical assault, STDs, and pregnancy. Oftentimes they need to get high in order to numb themselves up enough to engage in the act, which puts them in a vulnerable position as well. Many are homeless. Et cetera.

I guess the primary contributing factor, though, is the desperation that put them in this situation in the first place.

So it seems we just have different views on Prostitution. Sure all of these things exist within the prostitution world.

I'm saying from a healthy professional worker, like you might find in Amsterdam, who demands protection, gets checked for STD's, Has other options but Chooses to work in the sex industry, pays taxes, and runs her business as she sees fit. This person does not seem to be a victim, she does not seem to be at a disadvantage power wise. And has made adult choices to ply her trade as she sees fit.

So you are speaking about the ugliest, most oppressed side of prostitution and I'm speaking about it from the POV of a choice a healthy, happy individual might make.

Also I don't know how call girl services work between working professionals and their clientele, but I would guess it is more like any business transaction, rather than the whole street-walking situation.

So I might disagree that prostitutes are vulnerable under regulated working conditions.

mammasan

angelica wrote:

Very true. My first sexual assault occurred when I was five years old and was orally sodomized. The third happened when I was sixteen, which is how I lost my virginity. It's not rocket science to see where my overly sexualized self, and my friends got our sense of identifying mainly with our sexuality, enough to send us towards the sex trade. 1 in 4 girls are sexually assaulted before adulthood. We must ask ourselves how is this happening? There is a LOT of objectification that gives the men who are doing these assaults the ability to blot out the feelings of a five year old child, for example. Or of a teenage girl saying "please don't, I'm a virgin" over and over, words falling on deaf ears. Real serious objectification. I spent many years in the realm of 'lower' functioning, and found many, many others like myself who were there along side me. And it was commonplace and normal that such happenings went on. I publicly speak in high schools...I just got home from a gig now. I told the kids at this alternative school...for many years I thought it was normal, acceptable behaviour to wake up and find my varying boyfriends having sex with me--an act that in each instance began without consent while I was asleep...because it was so common that it happened to me over and over, and when I spoke about it to others on my level, they also felt it was normal and common.

We have many rights that entitle women to equality, and they stem from theory and from the law, and don't as yet reflect where are are in terms of outcome as a society. Those laws are based on ideal principles, and are very, very much different than men and women operating in a balanced and equal way as commonplace. The reality is we operate under a patriarchal way, and it shows up over and over and over to the detriment of us all.

I don't know if I understood you clearly, and I apologize if i didn't, but are you saying that acts of pedophilia stem from the objectification of women. If that is the case I honestly and completely disagree. I can see how rape can be viewed this way but not pedophilia.

angelica

scb wrote:

I completely agree. And I think it's an extremely important point that many, many sex workers were/are sexually abused at some point. I'm really sorry that happened to you.

Thank-you.

Yes, many many. It's a very important connection.

_

Wilds wrote:

So it seems we just have different views on Prostitution. Sure all of these things exist within the prostitution world.

I'm saying from a healthy professional worker, like you might find in Amsterdam, who demands protection, gets checked for STD's, Has other options but Chooses to work in the sex industry, pays taxes, and runs her business as she sees fit. This person does not seem to be a victim, she does not seem to be at a disadvantage power wise. And has made adult choices to ply her trade as she sees fit.

So you are speaking about the ugliest, most oppressed side of prostitution and I'm speaking about it from the POV of a choice a healthy, happy individual might make.

Also I don't know how call girl services work between working professionals and their clientele, but I would guess it is more like any business transaction, rather than the whole street-walking situation.

So I might disagree that prostitutes are vulnerable under regulated working conditions.

I'm just trying to be realistic. In the U.S. right now, they don't have regulated working conditions, many have made the choice out of desperation, and many are on drugs. Given that the sex slave industry is huge worldwide, it's often much worse outside the U.S. with children being forced into prostitution. And this is not to mention that women are at greater risk than men physically, whether they are otherwise vulnerable or not.

I don't think the situation you portray is representative of the vast majority of prostitutes in the world.