Science Without a Soul

angelica · October 2007

soulsinging wrote:

i was explaining her post, not offering any comment on your views.

Actually, you clearly offered commentary on my views:

soulsinging wrote:

bottom line is the point still stands. your way is not the only way and adopting the stance that you know the only and best way to treat all mental illness and everyone should adhere to it and anyone suggesting any other treatments is wrong is utterly ludicrous.

And:

soulsinging wrote:

got the impression s/he meant advocating only one brand of recovery is dangerous... ie. the brand you espouse. just becos your behavior modification worked for you does not mean it will work for everyone.

This is what I've actually said about my position in this thread:

angelica wrote:

Whatever each individual feels is in their best interests is the bottom line for me...the bottom line to individual health is to be who that individual is, which means I support their view 100%, even if my view sees completely differently. I can accept opposing views, and be completely comfortable with that. That means even if the person feels being cured would mean something other than what I think it means....I completely support his experience, and his choices.

angelica wrote:

I support people doing what is right for them. I support them if they choose to not take meds if it alters their thinking too much or if it affects their 'talent'.

angelica wrote:

Again, the bottom line for me is what works for the individual given that stage in their life.

angelica · October 2007

MahoganySouls wrote:

I did indeed mean that advocating non treatment of mental illness is dangerous.

here is the part in question:

MahoganySouls wrote:

angelica wrote:

I completely agree. As I mentioned in another thread, after I started this thread today, I talked to a very close friend and found out both her and her teen-aged son have gone on anti-depressants. I completely supported them using whatever tool they feel is beneficial. And due to her use of an anti-depressant, my friend is getting out the the house to a meditation class, the gym, and she found a nice spiritual church that she really likes. These are all great avenues to follow for mental health! She recognizes the value of a temporary tool. She also understands our brain chemistry is dynamic and that eventually she will no longer need this help. It's when people are given messages telling them that they are in essence inherently flawed and need these meds to be stable or normal, it creates very scary power conditions. ...sorta like advertising...wherein they convince us that we are flawed-in-some-way UNLESS we use their soap, or buy their car, etc!

I was told numerous times I would have to take medication for the rest of my life for my "chemical imbalance". And here I am, with no diagnosable signs of disorder, and without medication, after over ten years of raging "illness".

The danger in this thinking is that one positive "recovery", does not mean it should be advocated for all.

MahoganySouls, you said, "the danger in THIS thinking..." You were referring to what I said in this quote from me. Now you say you were referring to the advocation of non-treatment of mental illness. Please show me where I said I advocate non-treatment of mental illness in this quote.

MahoganySouls · October 2007

angelica wrote:

here is the part in question:

MahoganySouls, you said, "the danger in THIS thinking..." You were referring to what I said in this quote from me. Now you say you were referring to the advocation of non-treatment of mental illness. Please show me where I said I advocate non-treatment of mental illness in this quote.

I was referring to this comment made by you
"She also understands our brain chemistry is dynamic and that eventually she will no longer need this help. It's when people are given messages telling them that they are in essence inherently flawed and need these meds to be stable or normal, it creates very scary power conditions. ...sorta like advertising...wherein they convince us that we are flawed-in-some-way UNLESS we use their soap, or buy their car, etc!

I was told numerous times I would have to take medication for the rest of my life for my "chemical imbalance". And here I am, with no diagnosable signs of disorder, and without medication, after over ten years of raging "illness"."

There is no way to know that "eventually she will no longer need this help". To assume so gives her false hope.

Meds are needed in most cases to remain "stable or normal". It is something that the patient needs to be convinced of. Otherwise they forego their medications and the cycle continues.

The fear of being controlled by others is often common among mentally ill patients. It is due to transference of fact wherein the person is unable or unwilling to accept that they have an, as you put it "flaw", but as the medical field puts it "illness". This illness being the cause of their lack of control rather than the doctors, family members, society being controlling. It is misunderstanding or irrational perspective. Very common.

Then you end with your experience elluding to a conspiracy against you. Thus again furthering the anti-science, anti-doctor, anti-medicine stigma prevalent among mental patients.

Those are the dangers I spoke of.

Honestly Angelica, if you have worked through your specific situation that is wonderful. It is what everyone wants. However the fact remains, to advocate or to give false pretense to the idea that every mental patient can accomplish this is doing a severe injustice to those who are suffering as you once were.

Perhaps I am reading you completely wrong. But my initial understanding is that you were diagnosed with a mental illness and have since decided that it was false and that any treatment of this disorder is a disservice towards you. That you were unjustly "committed" and see this as a violation of peoples rights. Which ends with you advocating against psychiatry and psychology via the videos you posted.

angelica · October 2007

MahoganySouls wrote:

However, what still remains are those patients who have a clinical or pathological basis for their mental illness. IE: chemical imbalance, trauma or misdirected electrofunction in the brain. These persons cannot "recover" in a traditional sense unless treated via a medicinal route.

What is acknowledged is a genetic predisposition. The pathological basis is not a chemical imbalance or pathological basis. What is genetic is the PREDISPOSITION, or the potential for pathology to arise. That means it may arise; it may not arise; and it may also go away if once arisen. And "they" can fully recover beyond the need for medication, because individuals can alter their environments through their choice, and they can build coping skills/resiliency and ego strength so that such a potential is not manifest.

One example of this being scizophrenia. A person diagnosed with this condition is not capable of separating logic from irrational thought. Everything they experience is very real to them.

Once one has manifested illness that is because the potential has been activated by life circumstances. It can also be likewise deactivated. Schizophrenia is not an example of a case where one has an absolute and written in stone inherent pathology exists, never to go away, whereupon one must always take meds.

In those diagnosed with schizophrenia, the stats are base on thirds: 1/3 are known to be in and out of hospitals. 1/3 are known to take meds and live a reasonably managed existence without huge drama. 1/3 disappear from the statistical charts, thought to suffer one or more episodes and to recover and integrate back into society.

Again, the idea that someone is born genetically or inherently "flawed", i.e. ill, is inaccurate.

Again, I question you Angelica as to why you would put any less emphasis on a disease of the brain than you would say a disease of the heart, kidney or any other organ?

You haven't answered my question: why would psychiatrists--professionals in this very profession--say that it is not actual disease as in heart disease, etc?

MahoganySouls · October 2007

angelica wrote:

You haven't answered my question: why would psychiatrists--professionals in this very profession--say that it is not actual disease as in heart disease, etc?

Quite honestly, I have never known anyone in the medical field make such a claim. As for the videos, the media can find anyone to fit their agenda if they look hard enough. Words can be twisted and concepts can be taken out of context in a video.

MahoganySouls · October 2007

angelica wrote:

Again, the idea that someone is born genetically or inherently "flawed", i.e. ill, is inaccurate.

I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion, however there are many illnesses that are genetic and there are plenty of babies born with birth defects. Mental illness is no different.

Your assumptions shock me. Saying that a disease such as Schizophrenia can be reversed or simply disappear is beyond comprehnsible. I highly doubt you have any experience in this arena. True study would help you understand otherwise.

It is a ludicrous as saying that a downs syndrome child will grow up to be "normal" if they only want to be.

angelica · October 2007

MahoganySouls wrote:

I was referring to this comment made by you
"She also understands our brain chemistry is dynamic and that eventually she will no longer need this help. It's when people are given messages telling them that they are in essence inherently flawed and need these meds to be stable or normal, it creates very scary power conditions. ...sorta like advertising...wherein they convince us that we are flawed-in-some-way UNLESS we use their soap, or buy their car, etc!

I was told numerous times I would have to take medication for the rest of my life for my "chemical imbalance". And here I am, with no diagnosable signs of disorder, and without medication, after over ten years of raging "illness"."

There is no way to know that "eventually she will no longer need this help" '. To assume so gives her false hope.

dvocating against psychiatry and psychology via the videos you posted.

Show me the specific words where *I* advocate non-treatment of mental illness. I did not in any way say that in the words you've coloured.

You say 'There is no way to know that "eventually she will no longer need this help'. To assume so gives her false hope." You are referring to when I expressed my friend's understanding of her mental health issues. I am not responsible for the ideas my friend has about her future with mental health. And my friend's impressions of mental health do not in anyway put words in my mouth, like that I advocate non-treatment of mental health issues. Quite the contrary to advocating non-treatment--here I indicated support of my friend taking anti-depressants as a tool in the treatment of her mental health issues. As I also did in another thread. And I indicated the self-empowering methods of building coping skills that my friend was working with, and my support of such self-treatments.

MahoganySouls · October 2007

Angelica, if you do not advocate against psychiatry and its treatments, why did you post the videos? They are all anti-psychiatry propaganda.

angelica · October 2007

MahoganySouls wrote:

I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion, however there are many illnesses that are genetic and there are plenty of babies born with birth defects. Mental illness is no different.

Do you have something to counter the fact that mental illness is genetically predisposed and only comes out if that genetic potential is molded by environmental factors? Can you counter the fact that if one has other healthy variables in place such genetic potential for illness stays at bay? Can you counter the idea that healthy life skills can cause active illness to retreat?

Trying to prove the existence of mental disease by using physical disease doesn't work.

It is a ludicrous as saying that a downs syndrome child will grow up to be "normal" if they only want to be.

You are the one confusing medical disease with mental health issues. I am not.

angelica · October 2007

MahoganySouls wrote:

Angelica, if you do not advocate against psychiatry and its treatments, why did you post the videos? They are all anti-psychiatry propaganda.

I posted the videos because there are people who don't see the whole picture. Because people don't see the whole picture, they treat people like they are inherently flawed and have no hope to be normal, except to take medication.

That is a dangerous and flawed view in my opinion. Education is important. Awareness and especially understanding is important.

MahoganySouls · October 2007

angelica wrote:

Do you have something to counter the fact that mental illness is genetically predisposed and only comes out if that genetic potential is molded by environmental factors? Can you counter the fact that if one has other healthy variables in place such genetic potential for illness stays at bay? Can you counter the idea that healthy life skills can cause active illness to retreat?

This is not always true. Yes, it is well documented that environmental factors play a huge role in mental health. However, a person in a well balanced environment can and still does succumb to any number of diagnoses in the field of psychiatry.

Take for example post partum depression. This is definitely triggered by both physical change and life change. It does have the tendency to reverse itself, however there are women who never revert back to their previous mental stability and find themselves needing medication for the rest of their lives. Their brain function has been altered.

Or the child who grows up in a perfectly healthy, normal, stable family life only to be stricken with ADHD and require medication. This is one area that I personally do feel is overdiagnosed and used as a catch all for bad behavior and poor parenting. It is also an area that sees abuse and overmedication.
However, that does not negate the truely afflicted persons with this disorder. Any adult with ADHD will tell you how utterly debilitating it can be. This is also one diagnosis that sees the most rejection of treatment. Because of negative stigma associated with the hype over "imagined" disease, patients tend to stop medicating out of fear of being controlled by others.

The point is, not all patients of mental illness aquired their disease via environmental factors. Plenty of people have been raised in stable, healthy homes yet have fallen victim to these insideous diseases. Through no fault of their own or anyone elses. So to sweepingly generalize mental illness as environmental is irresponsible and incorrect.

angelica · October 2007

MahoganySouls wrote:

Quite honestly, I have never known anyone in the medical field make such a claim. As for the videos, the media can find anyone to fit their agenda if they look hard enough. Words can be twisted and concepts can be taken out of context in a video.

You are deying that there are psychiatrists who oppose the practices of psychiatry based on their experience in the field?

"Thomas Stephen Szasz (pronounced /sas/; born April 15, 1920 in Budapest, Hungary) is a psychiatrist and academic. He is Professor Emeritus of Psychiatry at the State University of New York Health Science Center in Syracuse, New York. He is a prominent figure in the antipsychiatry movement, a well-known social critic of the moral and scientific foundations of psychiatry, and of the social control aims of medicine in modern society, as well as of scientism. He is well known for his books, The Myth of Mental Illness (1960) and The Manufacture of Madness: A Comparative Study of the Inquisition and the Mental Health Movement which set out some of the arguments with which he is most associated."

You might remember him from two of the videos....Apparently he's an eminent professor of Psychiatry.

"According to Szasz, disease must be found on the autopsy table and meet pathological definition instead of being voted into existence by members of the American Psychiatric Association. Mental illnesses are "like a" disease, argues Szasz, putting mental illness in a semantic metaphorical language arts category"

My personal favourite Psychiatrist was Eric Berne who developed the field of study called "transactional analysis". This field is studied widely. It also spawned the entire self-help movement, because it empowered individuals away from the control and power dynamics of psychiatry. It's partly based on understanding and overcoming issues of power plays, and control. It was such information, and the entire self-help movement who empowered me on the road to recovery and beyond.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Berne

angelica · October 2007

Here are some words about the work done by Jerome D. Frank and Arnold P. Goldstein regarding hope and expectation in psychotherapy (from Claude Steiner's book "Scripts People Live"):

“From their studies it is clear that the assumptions of mental health workers about their clients have an extremely strong influence on the outcome of their work. Their research shows that when there exists an assumption of illness and chronicity on the part of the workers the effect is that of producing chronicity and illness in the clients, while an assumption of curability on the part of the worker will be associated with an improvement on the part of the client. Thus, considering emotional disturbance as some form of illness, as many who work with people do, is potentially harmful and may in fact be promoting illness in people who seek help from psychiatrists. On the other hand, the assumption that psychiatric disturbances are curable since they are based on reversible decisions frees in people their potent, innate tendencies to recover and overthrow their unhappiness. Workers who offer positive expectancy, coupled with problem solving expertise, make it possible for people in emotional difficulties to take power over their lives and produce their own new, satisfying life plans.”

Thankfully there are many mental health agencies who understand the value of this.

MahoganySouls · October 2007

Angelica, self help is wonderful. It is indeed very empowering. My complaint to you is that Psychiatry is not a business of "powerplay or control" as you elude to.

Why do you think that doctors would want to control you specifically?

MahoganySouls · October 2007

angelica wrote:

Here are some words about the work done by Jerome D. Frank and Arnold P. Goldstein regarding hope and expectation in psychotherapy (from Claude Steiner's book "Scripts People Live"):

“From their studies it is clear that the assumptions of mental health workers about their clients have an extremely strong influence on the outcome of their work. Their research shows that when there exists an assumption of illness and chronicity on the part of the workers the effect is that of producing chronicity and illness in the clients, while an assumption of curability on the part of the worker will be associated with an improvement on the part of the client. Thus, considering emotional disturbance as some form of illness, as many who work with people do, is potentially harmful and may in fact be promoting illness in people who seek help from psychiatrists. On the other hand, the assumption that psychiatric disturbances are curable since they are based on reversible decisions frees in people their potent, innate tendencies to recover and overthrow their unhappiness. Workers who offer positive expectancy, coupled with problem solving expertise, make it possible for people in emotional difficulties to take power over their lives and produce their own new, satisfying life plans.”

Thankfully there are many mental health agencies who understand the value of this.

This is definitely true in the case of someone who merely suffers from benign "unhappiness". This however is not true when it comes to serious mental illness.

Clinical Depression for example is not based on mere "discontent or unhappiness" in life. It is a deep irrational, unprompted state of disconnection with reality. One that induces sorrow, sadness and anguish. Such a person cannot simply "snap out of it" by changing their outlook.

angelica · October 2007

MahoganySouls wrote:

Angelica, self help is wonderful. It is indeed very empowering. My complaint to you is that Psychiatry is not a business of "powerplay or control" as you elude to.

Why do you think that doctors would want to control you specifically?

The basis of transactional analysis is that we are all okay. If someone tries telling another that due to their ideas or point of view that the individual is imbalanced, or even sick, that is a power play. The one embarking on the power play is coming from an imbalanced position of looking down on the other, and has entered the "rescuer/victim/persecutor" triangle. They will continue to cycle through these three imbalanced positions.

Many people operate on the uneven playing field rather than on the even playing field beyond imbalance. When one learns these power dynamics, and the healthy ways of coping with the imbalance others perpetuate, it's a very simple and quite peaceful existence, actually.

MahoganySouls · October 2007

angelica wrote:

The basis of transactional analysis is that we are all okay. If someone tries telling another that due to their ideas or point of view that the individual is imbalanced, or even sick, that is a power play. The one embarking on the power play is coming from an imbalanced position of looking down on the other, and has entered the "rescuer/victim/persecutor" triangle. They will continue to cycle through these three imbalanced positions.

Many people operate on the uneven playing field rather than on the even playing field beyond imbalance. When one learns these power dynamics, and the healthy ways of coping with the imbalance others perpetuate, it's a very simple and quite peaceful existence, actually.

OK so let me undertand this via a few examples.

You are claiming that the person who hears bodiless voices tell him to cover his windows with tinfoil to keep aliens away is balanced.

You are also claiming that the person who cannot leave their house because of an irrational and debilitating fear of imagined danger outside is balanced.

You are supporting the ideas of the manic depressive who cannot get out of bed one minute and throwing away the family savings the next as being balanced.

You are stating that doctors who try to help these types of people overcome their "views" have an agenda of control and are thus a "persecutor".

angelica · October 2007

MahoganySouls wrote:

So to sweepingly generalize mental illness as environmental is irresponsible and incorrect.

What you refer to is a product of your imagination. I said no such thing.

The blueprint of the DNA is physically built in the brain as it quadruples in size since birth. In each moment of the brain growing, it is impressed upon by environmental factors and experiences in the individual's life. At all times it is the perfect blend of nature/nurture or DNA/environment.

What I do say is that mental illness is about a predisposition or a potential. That potential is either molded into being, or not depending on one's environemental factors, like the coping skills one is taught, the level of self-esteem one is vested with, depending on the personality that the individual develops in the first three years of life, depending on experiences/traumas, depending on the level of boundary and healthy ego developed, etc. Because a genetic predisposition exists is not at all the same as saying illness exists. It is not at all the same as saying illness is guaranteed. It can come out, or it can be latent, even for a lifetime.

angelica · October 2007

MahoganySouls wrote:

OK so let me undertand this via a few examples.

You are claiming that the person who hears bodiless voices tell him to cover his windows with tinfoil to keep aliens away is balanced.

You are also claiming that the person who cannot leave their house because of an irrational and debilitating fear of imagined danger outside is balanced.

You are supporting the ideas of the manic depressive who cannot get out of bed one minute and throwing away the family savings the next as being balanced.

You are stating that doctors who try to help these types of people overcome their "views" have an agenda of control and are thus a "persecutor".

I'm saying that by the time one is flagrantly imbalanced, it's due to numerous imbalanced experiences molding the inner DNA and potential.

I also say to pathologize people and to lower them by telling them they need medication to be normal and always will is a dangerous imbalance of power and creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. When this happens, the person who creates this illusion becomes an environmental factor contributing to the illness of the individual.

Treatments can also be given to individuals that are helpful and empowering--and I participate in helpful and empowering influence in the mental health field. And I recognize that: "when there exists an assumption of illness and chronicity on the part of the workers the effect is that of producing chronicity and illness in the clients, while an assumption of curability on the part of the worker will be associated with an improvement on the part of the client. "

soulsinging · October 2007

MahoganySouls wrote:

OK so let me undertand this via a few examples.

You are claiming that the person who hears bodiless voices tell him to cover his windows with tinfoil to keep aliens away is balanced.

You are also claiming that the person who cannot leave their house because of an irrational and debilitating fear of imagined danger outside is balanced.

You are supporting the ideas of the manic depressive who cannot get out of bed one minute and throwing away the family savings the next as being balanced.

You are stating that doctors who try to help these types of people overcome their "views" have an agenda of control and are thus a "persecutor".

i have a very close friend who was diagnosed bipolar. in addition to medication, he embarked on a self help/spiritual program that completely turned his life around and changed his outlook on it, as angelica is describing. it was very similar to my own, in fact, and to what she has spoken of occurring to her. eventually, due to the progress he had made on this spiritual and emotional journey and encouragement from the people who helped him on this path and shared angelica's views on medicine dependency, he decided he no longer needed the medication and he went off it.

within 2 weeks he had had a manic episode and beat the living shit out of his wife for several hours in front of their children.

i spoke to him many, many times before, during, and after these events. he never once wavered in his spiritual views nor at any point was he different from the guy he was on meds, post-meds, and post-outburst. his psychic change had occurred and stayed. but it was insufficient to surmount the chemical imbalances that caused him to lash out violently against his own family.

Science Without a Soul

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