Science Without a Soul

angelica

MahoganySouls wrote:

Regarding forced commitment (hospitalization), these are not done without grounded reasons. They are only used when a person is a danger to themselves or others. Unfortunately, the patient is not able to see this in themselves.

This is not true. Both times I was committed against my will were both times done when someone in my life called the ambulance and told them I had taken an overdose. Both times it was not true (both times I had not even considered taking an overdose--i.e. I was not depressed or in any way a danger). Both times, I was forced to drink charcoal, and both times it was later found through blood tests that I had not ingested pills.

The reality is that in terms of human power issues, things are not even close to ideal or easy and simplistic.

soulsinging

angelica wrote:

This is not true. Both times I was committed against my will were both times done when someone in my life called the ambulance and told them I had taken an overdose. Both times it was not true (both times I had not even considered taking an overdose--i.e. I was not depressed or in any way a danger). Both times, I was forced to drink charcoal, and both times it was later found through blood tests that I had not ingested pills.

The reality is that in terms of human power issues, things are not even close to ideal or easy and simplistic.

who were these people and why did they make the calls? did you give them reason to? did you ever pursue legal action against them due to their abuse? sometimes, the system fucks up. innocent people are arrested or committed. as long as there is no long-term harm, i fail to see the wisdom of waiting until somebody has committed suicide or killed somebody to say "gee, maybe we should have done something about that."

angelica

soulsinging wrote:

who were these people and why did they make the calls? did you give them reason to? did you ever pursue legal action against them due to their abuse? sometimes, the system fucks up. innocent people are arrested or committed. as long as there is no long-term harm, i fail to see the wisdom of waiting until somebody has committed suicide or killed somebody to say "gee, maybe we should have done something about that."

Asking if I gave someone reason to falsely commit me against my will is a question I will not dignify with an answer.

The fact is a lot goes down that is not optimal.

angelica

soulsinging wrote:

...angelica's views on medicine dependency, he decided he no longer needed the medication and he went off it...

Maybe you could describe "my" views on medicine dependency. Again, it sounds like you are drawing baseless assumptions.

soulsinging

angelica wrote:

Maybe you could describe "my" views on medicine dependency. Again, it sounds like you are drawing baseless assumptions.

"to pathologize people and to lower them by telling them they need medication to be normal and always will is a dangerous imbalance of power"

when he was being told he should continue his meds, he stayed on his meds and was happily pursuing his spiritual growth. his relationship with his family was exemplary and he was happy and excited about a new baby on the way. he had an excellent job and was satisfied with it and pursuing it further. when he was told he did not need meds and should go off them becos his spiritual growth was enough, he stopped taking them and the situation i described occurred.

soulsinging

angelica wrote:

Asking if I gave someone reason to falsely commit me against my will is a question I will not dignify with an answer.

The fact is a lot goes down that is not optimal.

the fact is a lot goes on in life that is not optimal. some people are born retarded and will never be "normal" in terms of intelligence or day to day functioning on their own. some will be born with mental illnesses that also impair their ability to function and survive on their own in society.

the question is valid. if you were talking about how you had swallowed a bunch of pills only to recant once the paramedics arrived, that changes the story. if you did nothing wrong whatsoever, i would say that's a strong case that whoever did the reporting was in dire need of psychiatric evaluation themselves.

angelica

soulsinging wrote:

"to pathologize people and to lower them by telling them they need medication to be normal and always will is a dangerous imbalance of power"

when he was being told this, he stayed on his meds and was happily pursuing his spiritual growth. when he was told he did not need meds and should go off them becos his spiritual growth was enough, he stopped taking them and the situation i described occurred.

I have never, ever advocated that anyone go off of meds because of their spiritual position. Also, I never personally went off of meds because of my own spiritual position. Considering my spiritual experiences were tied to disorder for years, I am MUCH more self-watchful when I have spiritual experiences. As I head out of common experience, I am hyper alert for signs of imbalance. My psychiatrist recognized my level of self-awareness and my responsibility for my mental health and encouraged me to monitor my own meds. I have always willingly taken meds when I had psychiatric issues, as a backlash to my mother not doing so. My doctor knew me and trusted me to take meds when I recognized the signs of issues. And I always did so. I also used to fill out safety-contracts with my daughter, under the agreement that were she to believe I was heading into "delusional" territory, I would take meds on her suggestion, even when she was only 14, because I trusted her, and because I was willing to be safe rather than sorry. I can always tell the next day after taking meds whether it was a right choice because I'd feel normal, or a wrong choice because I'd feel overly drugged. The reason I am med free to this day is because I have not manifested signs of illness necessitating taking meds.

If someone is acting delusional or hallucinating or whatever, I would advocate meds. I wouldn't limit their potential growth and tell them they will always need them because I don't have any way in knowing that. The power imbalance of my expertise coupled with them being at a lowered and impressionable state would make that irresponsible of me to do so. (multiply this for doctors considering the power they hold for many) Contributing to a self-fulfilling prophecy is not okay and carries big accountability. But I am very realistic and savvy in terms of illness on hand. And of healthy treatment that addresses issues in an empowering way.

angelica

soulsinging wrote:

the fact is a lot goes on in life that is not optimal. some people are born retarded and will never be "normal" in terms of intelligence or day to day functioning on their own. some will be born with mental illnesses that also impair their ability to function and survive on their own in society.

the question is valid. if you were talking about how you had swallowed a bunch of pills only to recant once the paramedics arrived, that changes the story. if you did nothing wrong whatsoever, i would say that's a strong case that whoever did the reporting was in dire need of psychiatric evaluation themselves.

I was responding to MahoganySouls who said the only people who are committed are a danger to self or others. And it's not true.

catefrances

MahoganySouls wrote:

Sometimes only true friends can say the most difficult of things. Love means taking the path less traveled. I would thank her for caring enough to see and express that you were struggling in some way.

this was not a true friend.

angelica

No one needs medication to be "normal". The idea that there is a "normal" is an illusion. Mental health operates on a continuum. And experts, doctors and mental health professionals take medications for "imbalances" just like anyone else.

People might sometimes use medication because they feel they need a tool in order to feel mentally healthy, or because they recognize it's in their best interests for some reason. But to be "normal" is about some arbitrary judgment. People can only be themselves, meds or not.

angelica

soulsinging wrote:

some will be born with mental illnesses that also impair their ability to function and survive on their own in society.

People are born with mental illnesses? Who is actually born with, say, schizophrenia? It doesn't happen. These illnesses develop. And it doesn't happen in a vacuum.

soulsinging

angelica wrote:

I have never, ever advocated that anyone go off of meds because of their spiritual position. Also, I never personally went off of meds because of my own spiritual position. Considering my spiritual experiences were tied to disorder for years, I am MUCH more self-watchful when I have spiritual experiences. As I head out of common experience, I am hyper alert for signs of imbalance. My psychiatrist recognized my level of self-awareness and my responsibility for my mental health and encouraged me to monitor my own meds. I have always willingly taken meds when I had psychiatric issues, as a backlash to my mother not doing so. My doctor knew me and trusted me to take meds when I recognized the signs of issues. And I always did so. I also used to fill out safety-contracts with my daughter, under the agreement that were she to believe I was heading into "delusional" territory, I would take meds on her suggestion, even when she was only 14, because I trusted her, and because I was willing to be safe rather than sorry. I can always tell the next day after taking meds whether it was a right choice because I'd feel normal, or a wrong choice because I'd feel overly drugged. The reason I am med free to this day is because I have not manifested signs of illness necessitating taking meds.

If someone is acting delusional or hallucinating or whatever, I would advocate meds. I wouldn't limit their potential growth and tell them they will always need them because I don't have any way in knowing that. The power imbalance of my expertise coupled with them being at a lowered and impressionable state would make that irresponsible of me to do so. (multiply this for doctors considering the power they hold for many) Contributing to a self-fulfilling prophecy is not okay and carries big accountability. But I am very realistic and savvy in terms of illness on hand. And of healthy treatment that addresses issues in an empowering way.

then it seems to me you DO recognize some value and benefit in psychiatry and medication and are only arguing that the door should not be closed to other treatments and they should be included in the canon of therapies considered in the normal course of treatment.

soulsinging

angelica wrote:

I was responding to MahoganySouls who said the only people who are committed are a danger to self or others. And it's not true.

perhaps not, but i imagine mahogany would admit the system is not perfect and the goal is that only those who are in danger are committed. but as with all human systems, it is imperfect and mistakes are made. again, i fail to see how this is reason enough to dismiss all of psychiatry as a worthless hoax.

soulsinging

angelica wrote:

People are born with mental illnesses? Who is actually born with, say, schizophrenia? It doesn't happen. These illnesses develop. And it doesn't happen in a vacuum.

the same number of people who are born with diabetes. you're born with the capacity and sometimes it takes and sometimes it doesn't. shit happens. screws fall out, the world's an imperfect place!

angelica

soulsinging wrote:

then it seems to me you DO recognize some value and benefit in psychiatry and medication and are only arguing that the door should not be closed to other treatments and they should be included in the canon of therapies considered in the normal course of treatment.

I'm arguing for the empowerment and the equality of the patient to make the choices that WORK for them. I am asserting that the patient deserves to be treated with respect, equality and empowerment, rather than be coerced due to the fears of those around them who are contributing to an imbalanced situation.

You may have missed that earlier I said to OutOfBreath: "I agree that much great and effective work is done within psychiatry." Were it not for the meds I've taken for years, I would not be where I am today. This does not in any way minimize the inadvertent abuses of power that take place in psychiatry based on the fact that the system like all human systems is flawed.

As MahoganySouls has illustrated, mental health professionals such as herself are "shocked" to imagine the mere idea that schizophrenia can go away. They believe it's impossible, thusly setting up the negative expectancy referred to in regard to mental health professionals that contributes to chronicity on the part of illness in the patient. She also represents that they believe mental health patients must be convinced of their inherent and permanent imbalance in order to be "convinced" (or coerced in my interpretation) into taking meds, etc. And that chemical imbalances don't go away. This is a prevalent position in the profession. And yet, any psychiatrist knows that the genetic component is a "predisposition". Besides that, Dr. Phil, with his panel of experts from all levels of mental health, said the genetic aspect of schizophrenia is about 10% of the overall picture. That means there is 90% environmental, which CAN be effected in such major mental illness.

This abuse of power from within psychiatry, based on human flaw of the experts, albeit often well-intended is based on the flaws in the profession and the accompanying human error. It's deplorable from a human rights perspective. If mental health patients had strong egos and healthy self-esteem, it wouldn't be an issue, but the very fact that they seek help because their egos are not strong, and their self-esteem is often shattered is what makes these abuses of power so unacceptable.

MahoganySouls wrote:

Your assumptions shock me. Saying that a disease such as Schizophrenia can be reversed or simply disappear is beyond comprehnsible.

MahoganySouls wrote:

Meds are needed in most cases to remain "stable or normal". It is something that the patient needs to be convinced of. Otherwise they forego their medications and the cycle continues.

soulsinging

angelica wrote:

I'm arguing for the empowerment and the equality of the patient to make the choices that WORK for them. I am asserting that the patient deserves to be treated with respect, equality and empowerment, rather than be coerced due to the fears of those around them who are contributing to an imbalanced situation.

You may have missed that earlier I said to OutOfBreath: "I agree that much great and effective work is done within psychiatry." Were it not for the meds I've taken for years, I would not be where I am today. This does not in any way minimize the inadvertent abuses of power that take place in psychiatry based on the fact that the system like all human systems is flawed.

As MahoganySouls has illustrated, mental health professionals such as herself are "shocked" to imagine the mere idea that schizophrenia can go away. They believe it's impossible, thusly setting up the negative expectancy referred to in regard to mental health professionals that contributes to chronicity on the part of illness in the patient. She also represents that they believe mental health patients must be convinced of their inherent and permanent imbalance in order to be "convinced" (or coerced in my interpretation) into taking meds, etc. And that chemical imbalances don't go away. This is a prevalent position in the profession. And yet, any psychiatrist knows that the genetic component is a "predisposition". Besides that, Dr. Phil, with his panel of experts from all levels of mental health, said the genetic aspect of schizophrenia is about 10% of the overall picture. That means there is 90% environmental, which CAN be effected in such major mental illness.

This abuse of power from within psychiatry, based on human flaw of the experts, albeit often well-intended is based on the flaws in the profession and the accompanying human error. It's deplorable from a human rights perspective. If mental health patients had strong egos and healthy self-esteem, it wouldn't be an issue, but the very fact that they seek help because their egos are not strong, and their self-esteem is often shattered is what makes these abuses of power so unacceptable.

mahogany also admitted psychiatry is new and has a long way to go. i cannot say i blame her for her views. it wasn't THAT long ago homosexuality was considered a mental illness and schizophrenics were simply locked up for life. there has been great improvement and i don't think anyone is closed to further improvement and refinement. but medically speaking, your case is the exception, not the norm. as i said, i have had personal experience with two people very close to me going off meds and having disastrous results. the numbers thus far have not been very promising for schizophrenics responding to simple self esteem building in place of medication. but we have already come a long way to using psyhciatry as a tool to help these people live independently as opposed to simply locking them away. and we are learning more every day. the fact that there is still a long way to go does not mean the entire field is some insidious force for abuse. just that it is a bunch of scientists still trying to fumble their way forward into good results.

angelica

soulsinging wrote:

perhaps not, but i imagine mahogany would admit the system is not perfect and the goal is that only those who are in danger are committed. but as with all human systems, it is imperfect and mistakes are made. again, i fail to see how this is reason enough to dismiss all of psychiatry as a worthless hoax.

I'm not sure what she thinks...I only know what she said, which regarded the idea that forced commitment happens for a grounded reasons.

Again, I have not dismissed all psychiatry as a hoax. I look at it as a valid tool for the empowerment of the patient, which puts the patient on an even playing field as any self-respecting adult. When the patient is empowered and supported, they can make decisions in their best interests, as empowered individuals do. Any idea of having to convince patients of the chronicity of their symptoms to get them to take med they don't feel comfortable with is a control-play/power-struggle which adds the "professional" into the equation of imbalance, worsening the situation, and perpetuating imbalance.

angelica

Back to the idea of the "chemical imbalance" in schizophrenia being a lifetime issue:

"A person has a genetic predisposition towards a chemical imbalance, in this case involving neural transmitters in the brain. " Even the idea of a genetic predisposition being genetic remains this doctor's, and many others, opinion. It is not yet proven factual.**see below
http://anxietyanddepression-help.com/schiz.html
"This doesn't mean inevitable doom, just danger. If you have certain experiences, your brain responds by getting out of balance, and you get sick.
Almost any person can be made to lose touch with reality, to 'go over the edge'. That's what torture, third degree questioning, brainwashing are about. Some rare souls can resist even such treatment. Other, genetically more vulnerable people respond to less terrible conditions with the symptoms of a psychiatric disorder.
It's an interaction. So, how to respond to the misfortune of suffering in this way? By learning from other conditions that are interactions between heredity and circumstances"

"Also, the wonderful and mysterious healing mechanisms of the body can correct the imbalance without drugs, in response to psychotherapy, and a change in the life events that led to the problem in the first place.
One major problem is social stigma. You can suffer from diabetes or high blood pressure and be generally respected. However, there is discrimination, fear and even loathing towards people with psychiatric disorders, a leftover medieval attitude. And, usually, the sufferer internalises these attitudes. "



**What causes schizophrenia: “We do not yet understand precisely the cause or the causes of schizophrenia, although research is progressing rapidly.”

...Molecular Biology -- People with schizophrenia have an irregular pattern of certain brain cells. Since these cells are formed long before a baby is born, there is speculation that

this irregular pattern may point towards a possible "cause" of schizophrenia in the prenatal period; or

the pattern indicates a predisposition to acquire the disease at a later date. "


or:

"Genetic Predisposition -- Genetic research continues, but has not yet identified a hereditary gene for schizophrenia. Schizophrenia does appear more regularly in some families. Then again, many people with schizophrenia have no family history of the illness."


There is much research, and while some things are known, it remains "speculation" what the actual causes are.

angelica

"Just as other diseases have signs or symptoms, so does schizophrenia. Symptoms are not identical for everyone. Some people may have only one episode of schizophrenia in their lifetime. Others may have recurring episodes, but lead relatively normal lives in between. Others may have severe symptoms for a lifetime."
http://www.mentalhealth.com/book/p40-sc02.html#Head_3

MahoganySouls wrote:

Your assumptions shock me. Saying that a disease such as Schizophrenia can be reversed or simply disappear is beyond comprehnsible. I highly doubt you have any experience in this arena. True study would help you understand otherwise.

angelica

"Recovery:

Myth: Rehabilitation can be provided only after stabilization.
Reality: Rehabilitation should begin on Day One.
-- Dr. Courtenay Harding, University of Colorado School of Medicine

Some of the most recent and hopeful news in schizophrenia research is emerging from studies in the field of psychosocial “rehab.” New studies challenge several long-held myths in psychiatry about the inability of people with schizophrenia to recover from their illness. It now appears that such myths, by maintaining an overall pessimism about outcomes, may significantly reduce patients' opportunities for improvement and/or recovery.

In fact, the long-term perspective on schizophrenia should give everyone a renewed sense of hope and optimism. According to Dr. G. Gross, author of a 22-year study of 508 patients with schizophrenia:

“ ...schizophrenia does not seem to be a disease of slow, progressive deterioration. Even in the second and third decades of illness, there is still potential for full or partial recovery.”
After three decades of empirical study, it is now clear that good rehabilitation programs are an important part of treatment strategy. In addition, where family input is solicited and families are included as part of the treatment "team", patient outcomes are greatly improved.

Families need and want education, information, coping and communication skills, emotional support, and to be treated as collaborators. For this reason, knowledgeable clinicians will make a special effort to involve family members. Once a relationship is established, clinician, patient and family can work together to identify needs and appropriate interventions. Everyone should be able to have realistic yet optimistic expectations about improvement and possible recovery.

Studies show that families who are supportive, non-judgmental, and, most especially, non-critical-can do much to help patients recover. On the other hand, patients who are around chaotic or volatile family members usually have a more difficult time, and have to return to hospital more often.

Since we now know this, it is important for family members to assess their own coping skills and try to anticipate and adapt to the ups and downs of the illness. Calm assurance, assistance, and support from family members can make a difference to the person with schizophrenia."
http://www.mentalhealth.com/book/p40-sc02.html#Head_3