Perhaps. But this clip paints an over-ominous picture if you ask me. I'll concede several of the points, but the one-sided mode of presentation of evil men out to destroy humanity or something turns me off. I wasn't too impressed with fahrenheit 911 either.
As does medicine, as does all science. And it is a great help in many cases. The error is assuming that's all there is, and that science at any points posess the full and complete truth.
This clip did not present any kind of "fair view" as far as I can tell. Not a single opposing voice were heard, ominous music and voice-over and an extremely one-sided view of some of the sides of psychiatry, made out to represent all of psychiatry.
I am all for critique of psychology and psychiatry, particularly the history there-in. However, presenting it as money-out-the-window, doesn't cure or help anything run by evil men that are denouncing god.. Well, theat's a major turn-off. This is propaganda, and that never looks pretty no matter who tells it or for what reason.
Peace
Dan
I agree it presents an ominous picture.....
I agree we make a huge error by believing science is all there is. This is a huge issue. It's rampant on many levels, at great cost. Here I am addressing the psychiatric level alone.
I'm not fond of the drama of this type of thing or farenheit 911 either. However that is about presentation. The points have a truth to them. In both presentations.
You and I have different ideas of a fair view. For me, for any "side" to present itself and itself only is 100% fair and accurate in that context. It's obvious it's not the whole picture, and yet it's still valid for me. I understand if it's not for you.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
positive recovery then. whatever you want to call it. bottom line is the point still stands. your way is not the only way and adopting the stance that you know the only and best way to treat all mental illness and everyone should adhere to it and anyone suggesting any other treatments is wrong is utterly ludicrous. all the poster said was that just becos it worked for you does not mean it will work for everyone or that it should be the sole treatment used. just one of many.
That's not what the poster said.
It's apparent that you either don't read what I say, or that you don't comprehend what I am saying.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
It's apparent that you either don't read what I say, or that you don't comprehend what I am saying.
it is exactly what she said, as per the sentence you quoted twice. she said it is dangerous to assume that just becos it worked for you it will work for everyone and should be advocated on that grounds. perhaps her writing wasn't as clear as it could be, but i think her intent is quite clear to anyone without an agenda or built-in defensiveness about their pet theory. perhaps she did not comprehend what you were saying and you weren't advocating such a position.
it is exactly what she said, as per the sentence you quoted twice. she said it is dangerous to assume that just becos it worked for you it will work for everyone and should be advocated on that grounds. perhaps her writing wasn't as clear as it could be, but i think her intent is quite clear to anyone without an agenda or built-in defensiveness about their pet theory. perhaps she did not comprehend what you were saying and you weren't advocating such a position.
You have misconstrued what I have said. I have no desire to debate your straw man arguments.
If MahoganySoul would like to discuss what she said, I'm open to that.
Peace.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I agree we make a huge error by believing science is all there is. This is a huge issue. It's rampant on many levels, at great cost. Here I am addressing the psychiatric level alone.
I'm not fond of the drama of this type of thing or farenheit 911 either. However that is about presentation. The points have a truth to them. In both presentations.
You and I have different ideas of a fair view. For me, for any "side" to present itself and itself only is 100% fair and accurate in that context. It's obvious it's not the whole picture, and yet it's still valid for me. I understand if it's not for you.
I would say this is a view, it's not at all fair in any meaning of the word. Representative of some people's views, yes.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
what if that potential is being reached without recovery. what if the 'patient' believes that to be 'cured' of their illness means to lose their gift.
Another way I see this is that I always have the "gift" of what has been labelled "bi-polar disorder"--the mystical experiences, and supposed "creative gifts". Recovery for me does not include losing that. Myself and others consider recovery being embracing that.
Again, the bottom line for me is what works for the individual given that stage in their life. Every point of my journey has been valid and appropriate. That includes when I believed I was chemically imbalanced and would be for life, and embraced meds and treatment, or when I was having high mystical experiences, which included that I was falling out from my acceptance of the social norms I was surrounded by with family, etc. Or when I'd sit in my basement with my boyfriend, telling the horrors of my life, because finally someone would listen, and I came across like the woman from the movie "The Witches Of Eastwick", who was vomiting cherry stones--I was spewing the evil I'd internalized in my life, and was experiencing a metaphorical exorcism, barely short of head-spinning.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
My brother was doped up on pills from psychiatrists for awhile. My mom finally decided it was all bullshit and got him off them, and now he's fine (before he was just kind of off in space).
You have misconstrued what I have said. I have no desire to debate your straw man arguments.
If MahoganySoul would like to discuss what she said, I'm open to that.
Peace.
:rolleyes: the straw man is the best thing ever to have happened to you... it allows you to dodge any point you don't feel like discussing.
there is nothing straw man in my statement. all i was doing was explaining what she seemed to be saying, as it seemed you didnt understand. if a straw man was being created, it was by her.
:rolleyes: the straw man is the best thing ever to have happened to you... it allows you to dodge any point you don't feel like discussing.
there is nothing straw man in my statement. all i was doing was explaining what she seemed to be saying, as it seemed you didnt understand. if a straw man was being created, it was by her.
The straw man helps me understand what is happening when people are misconstruing my points and inventing illogical arguments on my behalf that are diametrically opposed to what I actually keep stating over and over. Again, these false beliefs are known as "delusional", meaning a false belief given the evidence to the contrary.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
My brother was doped up on pills from psychiatrists for awhile. My mom finally decided it was all bullshit and got him off them, and now he's fine (before he was just kind of off in space).
IMO Its a bullshit industry.
Good for your mom. Thankfully, things turned out well for your brother.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
The straw man helps me understand what is happening when people are misconstruing my points and inventing illogical arguments on my behalf that are diametrically opposed to what I actually keep stating over and over. Again, these false beliefs are known as "delusional", meaning a false belief given the evidence to the contrary.
so how does my explaining to you what she said count as me misconstruing your points?
so how does my explaining to you what she said count as me misconstruing your points?
Your inaccurate interpretation of what I said is what misconstrues my points.
"adopting the stance that you know the only and best way to treat all mental illness and everyone should adhere to it and anyone suggesting any other treatments is wrong"~soulsinging
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Your inaccurate interpretation of what I said is what misconstrues my points.
"adopting the stance that you know the only and best way to treat all mental illness and everyone should adhere to it and anyone suggesting any other treatments is wrong"~soulsinging
i was explaining her post, not offering any comment on your views. seems to me that's the impression she got, thus her post... she seemed to think you were saying your way is the best and she was saying it's dangerous to think that just becos it worked for you it is the best for everyone. i don't know or care what you were actually saying, only explaining why she wrote what she did and what she meant by it, which you questioned.
Yes, we should take the life-saving medications away from the epileptic person. While we're at it, we should probably stop alzhiemers research because I would hate to take that human experience away from people. And when a person has a stroke, cutting off the oxygen and blood supply to a particular part of the brain (lack of blood flow is actually the cause of many problems in the brain) we should probably just recognize that this is just the way the brain is supposed to work. Oh, and the research showing that many of the murderers, rapists, child abusers have problems with their prefrontal cortex should be haulted because the option of medicating those individuals is actually just a way of making them less human................All those in favor, say "I"!
not sure if this is in response to my posts. but if it is....i never said that should be the case.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
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I'm not exactly sure I'm understanding. I'll see how this goes, and you can tell me if I'm answering what you're asking....
I support people doing what is right for them. I support them if they choose to not take meds if it alters their thinking too much or if it affects their 'talent'. My mother, a creative musician/songwriter, made this choice when I was a young girl. She was psychiatrically hospitalized and given meds. She went off her meds because they disrupted her thinking. The consequence of her choice is that I was raised by a mentally ill mother, through episodic periods of delusions and hallucinations interspersed between her having periods of awesome parenting, etc. Granted, there were many much better options/choices available that were not looked into at that time, which predisposed myself and my family to much further psychiatric problems for generations. This was a chain I indended to break and have done for myself, and my children.
I have been psychiatrically hospitalized two times against my will. I've also participated--well, led, actually, having my brother psychiatrically hospitalized against his will. I was with my daughter and her psychologist as she was "committed"-- hospitalized against her will. Where I draw the line with choice, personally and professionally, is if a person poses a danger to themselves or to others. Then I support alternative methods, such as involuntary ones. I'm not overly thrilled with this, but I don't see other options at this time, even though I'm certainly open to them. Given I've been dramatically affected by mental illness from so many angles, I take these choices very seriously.
thats it exactly angelica. and i agree.
i had someone say to me that i should be 'on' something. i looked at her like she'd just driven a blade through my guts. having known this person for over 20 years, i was horrified that they would suggest such a thing to me.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i had someone say to me that i should be 'on' something. i looked at her like she'd just driven a blade through my guts. having known this person for over 20 years, i was horrified that they would suggest such a thing to me.
I can defnitely understand that.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I did indeed mean that advocating non treatment of mental illness is dangerous.
Mental illness is an ever changing disease. A person goes through cycles. These many times offer a state of "honeymoon" in which the patient seems "cured" of their illness. When in fact, the negative effects of the brain dysfunction are merely on hiatus or under control at the moment. This can be for hours, days, months or even years. Only to resurface again at a later time.
Definitely some mental illness can soley be attributed to negative life experience. IE: the trauma of rape. The victim is thrown into a catasrophic mental event in which they experience irrational thinking, fears or breakdowns. These can definitely be "recovered" from with proper treatment be it medicinal or theraputic.
However, what still remains are those patients who have a clinical or pathological basis for their mental illness. IE: chemical imbalance, trauma or misdirected electrofunction in the brain. These persons cannot "recover" in a traditional sense unless treated via a medicinal route. One example of this being scizophrenia. A person diagnosed with this condition is not capable of separating logic from irrational thought. Everything they experience is very real to them.
The question of erraticating their "gifts" is a very valid one that does need to be addressed. It is known that persons with a mental illness tend to be highly creative. We see this with the lunacy associated with artists, musicians and poets over the centuries. Would they have been as "talented" had they been medicated?
So there in lays the challenge to treat the illness with balance. Allowing the individual personality to shine through while still keeping the illness at bay. Again, this is where the newness of Psychology errs. Trial and error are a natural process to learning about any disease.
Again, I question you Angelica as to why you would put any less emphasis on a disease of the brain than you would say a disease of the heart, kidney or any other organ?
"When you're climbing to the top, you'd better know the way back down" MSB
i had someone say to me that i should be 'on' something. i looked at her like she'd just driven a blade through my guts. having known this person for over 20 years, i was horrified that they would suggest such a thing to me.
Sometimes only true friends can say the most difficult of things. Love means taking the path less traveled. I would thank her for caring enough to see and express that you were struggling in some way.
"When you're climbing to the top, you'd better know the way back down" MSB
Regarding forced commitment (hospitalization), these are not done without grounded reasons. They are only used when a person is a danger to themselves or others. Unfortunately, the patient is not able to see this in themselves.
"When you're climbing to the top, you'd better know the way back down" MSB
bottom line is the point still stands. your way is not the only way and adopting the stance that you know the only and best way to treat all mental illness and everyone should adhere to it and anyone suggesting any other treatments is wrong is utterly ludicrous.
got the impression s/he meant advocating only one brand of recovery is dangerous... ie. the brand you espouse. just becos your behavior modification worked for you does not mean it will work for everyone.
This is what I've actually said about my position in this thread:
Whatever each individual feels is in their best interests is the bottom line for me...the bottom line to individual health is to be who that individual is, which means I support their view 100%, even if my view sees completely differently. I can accept opposing views, and be completely comfortable with that. That means even if the person feels being cured would mean something other than what I think it means....I completely support his experience, and his choices.
I support people doing what is right for them. I support them if they choose to not take meds if it alters their thinking too much or if it affects their 'talent'.
I completely agree. As I mentioned in another thread, after I started this thread today, I talked to a very close friend and found out both her and her teen-aged son have gone on anti-depressants. I completely supported them using whatever tool they feel is beneficial. And due to her use of an anti-depressant, my friend is getting out the the house to a meditation class, the gym, and she found a nice spiritual church that she really likes. These are all great avenues to follow for mental health! She recognizes the value of a temporary tool. She also understands our brain chemistry is dynamic and that eventually she will no longer need this help. It's when people are given messages telling them that they are in essence inherently flawed and need these meds to be stable or normal, it creates very scary power conditions. ...sorta like advertising...wherein they convince us that we are flawed-in-some-way UNLESS we use their soap, or buy their car, etc!
I was told numerous times I would have to take medication for the rest of my life for my "chemical imbalance". And here I am, with no diagnosable signs of disorder, and without medication, after over ten years of raging "illness".
The danger in this thinking is that one positive "recovery", does not mean it should be advocated for all.
MahoganySouls, you said, "the danger in THIS thinking..." You were referring to what I said in this quote from me. Now you say you were referring to the advocation of non-treatment of mental illness. Please show me where I said I advocate non-treatment of mental illness in this quote.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
MahoganySouls, you said, "the danger in THIS thinking..." You were referring to what I said in this quote from me. Now you say you were referring to the advocation of non-treatment of mental illness. Please show me where I said I advocate non-treatment of mental illness in this quote.
I was referring to this comment made by you "She also understands our brain chemistry is dynamic and that eventually she will no longer need this help. It's when people are given messages telling them that they are in essence inherently flawed and need these meds to be stable or normal, it creates very scary power conditions. ...sorta like advertising...wherein they convince us that we are flawed-in-some-way UNLESS we use their soap, or buy their car, etc!
I was told numerous times I would have to take medication for the rest of my life for my "chemical imbalance". And here I am, with no diagnosable signs of disorder, and without medication, after over ten years of raging "illness"."
There is no way to know that "eventually she will no longer need this help". To assume so gives her false hope.
Meds are needed in most cases to remain "stable or normal". It is something that the patient needs to be convinced of. Otherwise they forego their medications and the cycle continues.
The fear of being controlled by others is often common among mentally ill patients. It is due to transference of fact wherein the person is unable or unwilling to accept that they have an, as you put it "flaw", but as the medical field puts it "illness". This illness being the cause of their lack of control rather than the doctors, family members, society being controlling. It is misunderstanding or irrational perspective. Very common.
Then you end with your experience elluding to a conspiracy against you. Thus again furthering the anti-science, anti-doctor, anti-medicine stigma prevalent among mental patients.
Those are the dangers I spoke of.
Honestly Angelica, if you have worked through your specific situation that is wonderful. It is what everyone wants. However the fact remains, to advocate or to give false pretense to the idea that every mental patient can accomplish this is doing a severe injustice to those who are suffering as you once were.
Perhaps I am reading you completely wrong. But my initial understanding is that you were diagnosed with a mental illness and have since decided that it was false and that any treatment of this disorder is a disservice towards you. That you were unjustly "committed" and see this as a violation of peoples rights. Which ends with you advocating against psychiatry and psychology via the videos you posted.
"When you're climbing to the top, you'd better know the way back down" MSB
However, what still remains are those patients who have a clinical or pathological basis for their mental illness. IE: chemical imbalance, trauma or misdirected electrofunction in the brain. These persons cannot "recover" in a traditional sense unless treated via a medicinal route.
What is acknowledged is a genetic predisposition. The pathological basis is not a chemical imbalance or pathological basis. What is genetic is the PREDISPOSITION, or the potential for pathology to arise. That means it may arise; it may not arise; and it may also go away if once arisen. And "they" can fully recover beyond the need for medication, because individuals can alter their environments through their choice, and they can build coping skills/resiliency and ego strength so that such a potential is not manifest.
One example of this being scizophrenia. A person diagnosed with this condition is not capable of separating logic from irrational thought. Everything they experience is very real to them.
Once one has manifested illness that is because the potential has been activated by life circumstances. It can also be likewise deactivated. Schizophrenia is not an example of a case where one has an absolute and written in stone inherent pathology exists, never to go away, whereupon one must always take meds.
In those diagnosed with schizophrenia, the stats are base on thirds: 1/3 are known to be in and out of hospitals. 1/3 are known to take meds and live a reasonably managed existence without huge drama. 1/3 disappear from the statistical charts, thought to suffer one or more episodes and to recover and integrate back into society.
Again, the idea that someone is born genetically or inherently "flawed", i.e. ill, is inaccurate.
Again, I question you Angelica as to why you would put any less emphasis on a disease of the brain than you would say a disease of the heart, kidney or any other organ?
You haven't answered my question: why would psychiatrists--professionals in this very profession--say that it is not actual disease as in heart disease, etc?
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
You haven't answered my question: why would psychiatrists--professionals in this very profession--say that it is not actual disease as in heart disease, etc?
Quite honestly, I have never known anyone in the medical field make such a claim. As for the videos, the media can find anyone to fit their agenda if they look hard enough. Words can be twisted and concepts can be taken out of context in a video.
"When you're climbing to the top, you'd better know the way back down" MSB
Again, the idea that someone is born genetically or inherently "flawed", i.e. ill, is inaccurate.
I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion, however there are many illnesses that are genetic and there are plenty of babies born with birth defects. Mental illness is no different.
Your assumptions shock me. Saying that a disease such as Schizophrenia can be reversed or simply disappear is beyond comprehnsible. I highly doubt you have any experience in this arena. True study would help you understand otherwise.
It is a ludicrous as saying that a downs syndrome child will grow up to be "normal" if they only want to be.
"When you're climbing to the top, you'd better know the way back down" MSB
I was referring to this comment made by you "She also understands our brain chemistry is dynamic and that eventually she will no longer need this help. It's when people are given messages telling them that they are in essence inherently flawed and need these meds to be stable or normal, it creates very scary power conditions. ...sorta like advertising...wherein they convince us that we are flawed-in-some-way UNLESS we use their soap, or buy their car, etc!
I was told numerous times I would have to take medication for the rest of my life for my "chemical imbalance". And here I am, with no diagnosable signs of disorder, and without medication, after over ten years of raging "illness"."
There is no way to know that "eventually she will no longer need this help" '. To assume so gives her false hope.
dvocating against psychiatry and psychology via the videos you posted.
Show me the specific words where *I* advocate non-treatment of mental illness. I did not in any way say that in the words you've coloured.
You say 'There is no way to know that "eventually she will no longer need this help'. To assume so gives her false hope." You are referring to when I expressed my friend's understanding of her mental health issues. I am not responsible for the ideas my friend has about her future with mental health. And my friend's impressions of mental health do not in anyway put words in my mouth, like that I advocate non-treatment of mental health issues. Quite the contrary to advocating non-treatment--here I indicated support of my friend taking anti-depressants as a tool in the treatment of her mental health issues. As I also did in another thread. And I indicated the self-empowering methods of building coping skills that my friend was working with, and my support of such self-treatments.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion, however there are many illnesses that are genetic and there are plenty of babies born with birth defects. Mental illness is no different.
Do you have something to counter the fact that mental illness is genetically predisposed and only comes out if that genetic potential is molded by environmental factors? Can you counter the fact that if one has other healthy variables in place such genetic potential for illness stays at bay? Can you counter the idea that healthy life skills can cause active illness to retreat?
Trying to prove the existence of mental disease by using physical disease doesn't work.
It is a ludicrous as saying that a downs syndrome child will grow up to be "normal" if they only want to be.
You are the one confusing medical disease with mental health issues. I am not.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Angelica, if you do not advocate against psychiatry and its treatments, why did you post the videos? They are all anti-psychiatry propaganda.
I posted the videos because there are people who don't see the whole picture. Because people don't see the whole picture, they treat people like they are inherently flawed and have no hope to be normal, except to take medication.
That is a dangerous and flawed view in my opinion. Education is important. Awareness and especially understanding is important.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Comments
I agree we make a huge error by believing science is all there is. This is a huge issue. It's rampant on many levels, at great cost. Here I am addressing the psychiatric level alone.
I'm not fond of the drama of this type of thing or farenheit 911 either. However that is about presentation. The points have a truth to them. In both presentations.
You and I have different ideas of a fair view. For me, for any "side" to present itself and itself only is 100% fair and accurate in that context. It's obvious it's not the whole picture, and yet it's still valid for me. I understand if it's not for you.
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It's apparent that you either don't read what I say, or that you don't comprehend what I am saying.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
it is exactly what she said, as per the sentence you quoted twice. she said it is dangerous to assume that just becos it worked for you it will work for everyone and should be advocated on that grounds. perhaps her writing wasn't as clear as it could be, but i think her intent is quite clear to anyone without an agenda or built-in defensiveness about their pet theory. perhaps she did not comprehend what you were saying and you weren't advocating such a position.
If MahoganySoul would like to discuss what she said, I'm open to that.
Peace.
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Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Again, the bottom line for me is what works for the individual given that stage in their life. Every point of my journey has been valid and appropriate. That includes when I believed I was chemically imbalanced and would be for life, and embraced meds and treatment, or when I was having high mystical experiences, which included that I was falling out from my acceptance of the social norms I was surrounded by with family, etc. Or when I'd sit in my basement with my boyfriend, telling the horrors of my life, because finally someone would listen, and I came across like the woman from the movie "The Witches Of Eastwick", who was vomiting cherry stones--I was spewing the evil I'd internalized in my life, and was experiencing a metaphorical exorcism, barely short of head-spinning.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I think any view is fair within itself.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
IMO Its a bullshit industry.
:rolleyes: the straw man is the best thing ever to have happened to you... it allows you to dodge any point you don't feel like discussing.
there is nothing straw man in my statement. all i was doing was explaining what she seemed to be saying, as it seemed you didnt understand. if a straw man was being created, it was by her.
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Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
so how does my explaining to you what she said count as me misconstruing your points?
"adopting the stance that you know the only and best way to treat all mental illness and everyone should adhere to it and anyone suggesting any other treatments is wrong"~soulsinging
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
i was explaining her post, not offering any comment on your views. seems to me that's the impression she got, thus her post... she seemed to think you were saying your way is the best and she was saying it's dangerous to think that just becos it worked for you it is the best for everyone. i don't know or care what you were actually saying, only explaining why she wrote what she did and what she meant by it, which you questioned.
not sure if this is in response to my posts. but if it is....i never said that should be the case.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
thats it exactly angelica. and i agree.
i had someone say to me that i should be 'on' something. i looked at her like she'd just driven a blade through my guts. having known this person for over 20 years, i was horrified that they would suggest such a thing to me.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Mental illness is an ever changing disease. A person goes through cycles. These many times offer a state of "honeymoon" in which the patient seems "cured" of their illness. When in fact, the negative effects of the brain dysfunction are merely on hiatus or under control at the moment. This can be for hours, days, months or even years. Only to resurface again at a later time.
Definitely some mental illness can soley be attributed to negative life experience. IE: the trauma of rape. The victim is thrown into a catasrophic mental event in which they experience irrational thinking, fears or breakdowns. These can definitely be "recovered" from with proper treatment be it medicinal or theraputic.
However, what still remains are those patients who have a clinical or pathological basis for their mental illness. IE: chemical imbalance, trauma or misdirected electrofunction in the brain. These persons cannot "recover" in a traditional sense unless treated via a medicinal route. One example of this being scizophrenia. A person diagnosed with this condition is not capable of separating logic from irrational thought. Everything they experience is very real to them.
The question of erraticating their "gifts" is a very valid one that does need to be addressed. It is known that persons with a mental illness tend to be highly creative. We see this with the lunacy associated with artists, musicians and poets over the centuries. Would they have been as "talented" had they been medicated?
So there in lays the challenge to treat the illness with balance. Allowing the individual personality to shine through while still keeping the illness at bay. Again, this is where the newness of Psychology errs. Trial and error are a natural process to learning about any disease.
Again, I question you Angelica as to why you would put any less emphasis on a disease of the brain than you would say a disease of the heart, kidney or any other organ?
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
here is the part in question:
MahoganySouls, you said, "the danger in THIS thinking..." You were referring to what I said in this quote from me. Now you say you were referring to the advocation of non-treatment of mental illness. Please show me where I said I advocate non-treatment of mental illness in this quote.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
"She also understands our brain chemistry is dynamic and that eventually she will no longer need this help. It's when people are given messages telling them that they are in essence inherently flawed and need these meds to be stable or normal, it creates very scary power conditions. ...sorta like advertising...wherein they convince us that we are flawed-in-some-way UNLESS we use their soap, or buy their car, etc!
I was told numerous times I would have to take medication for the rest of my life for my "chemical imbalance". And here I am, with no diagnosable signs of disorder, and without medication, after over ten years of raging "illness"."
There is no way to know that "eventually she will no longer need this help". To assume so gives her false hope.
Meds are needed in most cases to remain "stable or normal". It is something that the patient needs to be convinced of. Otherwise they forego their medications and the cycle continues.
The fear of being controlled by others is often common among mentally ill patients. It is due to transference of fact wherein the person is unable or unwilling to accept that they have an, as you put it "flaw", but as the medical field puts it "illness". This illness being the cause of their lack of control rather than the doctors, family members, society being controlling. It is misunderstanding or irrational perspective. Very common.
Then you end with your experience elluding to a conspiracy against you. Thus again furthering the anti-science, anti-doctor, anti-medicine stigma prevalent among mental patients.
Those are the dangers I spoke of.
Honestly Angelica, if you have worked through your specific situation that is wonderful. It is what everyone wants. However the fact remains, to advocate or to give false pretense to the idea that every mental patient can accomplish this is doing a severe injustice to those who are suffering as you once were.
Perhaps I am reading you completely wrong. But my initial understanding is that you were diagnosed with a mental illness and have since decided that it was false and that any treatment of this disorder is a disservice towards you. That you were unjustly "committed" and see this as a violation of peoples rights. Which ends with you advocating against psychiatry and psychology via the videos you posted.
Once one has manifested illness that is because the potential has been activated by life circumstances. It can also be likewise deactivated. Schizophrenia is not an example of a case where one has an absolute and written in stone inherent pathology exists, never to go away, whereupon one must always take meds.
In those diagnosed with schizophrenia, the stats are base on thirds: 1/3 are known to be in and out of hospitals. 1/3 are known to take meds and live a reasonably managed existence without huge drama. 1/3 disappear from the statistical charts, thought to suffer one or more episodes and to recover and integrate back into society.
Again, the idea that someone is born genetically or inherently "flawed", i.e. ill, is inaccurate.
You haven't answered my question: why would psychiatrists--professionals in this very profession--say that it is not actual disease as in heart disease, etc?
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion, however there are many illnesses that are genetic and there are plenty of babies born with birth defects. Mental illness is no different.
Your assumptions shock me. Saying that a disease such as Schizophrenia can be reversed or simply disappear is beyond comprehnsible. I highly doubt you have any experience in this arena. True study would help you understand otherwise.
It is a ludicrous as saying that a downs syndrome child will grow up to be "normal" if they only want to be.
You say 'There is no way to know that "eventually she will no longer need this help'. To assume so gives her false hope." You are referring to when I expressed my friend's understanding of her mental health issues. I am not responsible for the ideas my friend has about her future with mental health. And my friend's impressions of mental health do not in anyway put words in my mouth, like that I advocate non-treatment of mental health issues. Quite the contrary to advocating non-treatment--here I indicated support of my friend taking anti-depressants as a tool in the treatment of her mental health issues. As I also did in another thread. And I indicated the self-empowering methods of building coping skills that my friend was working with, and my support of such self-treatments.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Do you have something to counter the fact that mental illness is genetically predisposed and only comes out if that genetic potential is molded by environmental factors? Can you counter the fact that if one has other healthy variables in place such genetic potential for illness stays at bay? Can you counter the idea that healthy life skills can cause active illness to retreat?
Trying to prove the existence of mental disease by using physical disease doesn't work.
You are the one confusing medical disease with mental health issues. I am not.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
That is a dangerous and flawed view in my opinion. Education is important. Awareness and especially understanding is important.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!