Sometimes non-action is more heinous and deplorable then taking action

Collin · May 2008

my2hands wrote:

you have made the point exactly. action must be taken. i am not saying you drop a nuclear weapon and kill everything living and breathing. i am saying you simply intervene enough to stop the wrongdoing and the people committing these acts and to eliminate the threat. i am not advocating the use of excessive force, such as the examples given a few posts back of nagasaki, hiroshima, and dresden. those were immoral MASSIVE attacks on civilain population centers when negotiations were cleary leading to the Japanse surrender within days.

I made the point that when I see a guy raping a woman, I will help this woman. You cannot compare this to war.

You say you're not advocating for excessive force, but isn't excessive force exactly what always happens? Name any war and I'll tell you how many innocent people were killed. The murders, because that's what they are, were never held accountable because this or that war was a "just" cause. The government will not be held accountable either.

And until this happens, until they are held accountable and responsible for their actions, there will never be something like a just war.

spiral out · May 2008

Collin wrote:

When I read this sentence: "a man walks into a room where a woman is being raped. what does he do?"

I immediately thought the guy should go over pull the guy off and give him a few kicks, secure him and call the police. Not cave his head in with a bat and killing the person.

That is exactly what i thought when i read it to.

El_Kabong · May 2008

my2hands wrote:

How did that work out for the 6 million jews that were slaughetred or the 500,000 people of darfur that were slaughtered? these are real events and are not stories in a book

i am sorry but i view your take on this as naive

it worked out pretty well for the us businesses working w/ germany (including GE who supplied them w/ munitions even AFTER we got into the war, IBM, coca-cola....)

how's shit goin on the ivory coast? not too bad for nestle, since that's where their child slave plantions are located

what about the actions of israel? the international committee of the red cross, UNICEF and lots of other human and child rights organizations have reported on the effects of israel's abuses towards the palestinians and how a good % of their kids have severe malnutrition, lack of access to hospitals....

a good thing we could do to start would be stop sending our tax money to these abusive regimes that we only have to go kill a bunch of ppl in order to 'liberate' them from the threat we helped create

i'd say profiting off of these atrocities is far more heinous and deplorable than non-action

and how do you hope to have a successful regime change by murdering hundreds of thousands to millions of the population and devastating (abd poisoning w/ DU shells) their land? yet it's happened w/o having to go to war, invade, occupy....these excuses are bullshit ploys to mask their true intentions of control

Abookamongstthemany · May 2008

I’ll speak for a man who gave for this land,
took a bullet in the back for his pay
Spilled his blood in the dirt and the dust,
he’s come back to say

What he has seen is hard to believe,
and it does no good to just to pray
He asked of us to stand and we watched,(?)
in this war today

With his mind he said “no more”
With his heart he said “no more”
With his life he said “no more war”

With his eyes he said “no more”
With his body he said “no more”
With his voice he said “no more war”

“No more war”

And nothing’s too good for a veteran
Yeah this is what they say
So nothing is what they will get
in this new American way.

Lies that were told to get us to go,
are criminal let us be straight
Let’s get to the point where our voices get heard,
behind the Whitehouse gate

With his mind he said “no more”
With his heart he said “no more”
With his life he said “no more war”

With his eyes he said “no more”
With his voice he said “no more”
With his body he said “no more war”

“No more war”
“No more war”

No more innocents dying
No more terror rising
No more eulogizing
No more evangelizing
No more presidents lying

No more war

With our mind we’re saying “no more”
With our voice we’re saying “no more”
With our lives we’re saying “no more war”

No more war
No more war

Abookamongstthemany · May 2008

"Masters Of War"

Come you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build all the bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks.

You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly.

Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain.

You fasten all the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion'
As young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud.

You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins.

How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
That even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do.

Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul.

And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand over your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead.

my2hands · May 2008

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

"Masters Of War"

Come you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build all the bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks.

You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly.

Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain.

You fasten all the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion'
As young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud.

You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins.

How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
That even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do.

Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul.

And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand over your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead.

i think you will see i have not mentioned "war", even though war can sometimes be justified as well

i have mentioned military intervention... such as the Darfur crisis... you dont have to take the sudanese government to war, but you have to military intervene to stop the slaughter of 1,000,000 innocent people...

a bod dylan song sure aint gonna stop the janjaweed from slaughtering innocent people

i think some of you are having trouble discussing entierely different topics... i am not talking about wars such as vietnam and iraq or the "interventions" in latin america... and i am not talking about just the US, even though americans like to think of themselves as the only people on the planet that matter... i am talking about the world stepping in collectively, hopefully coordinated through the UN... the type of situations i am talking about are exactly why the UN was created

my2hands · May 2008

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I’ll speak for a man who gave for this land,
took a bullet in the back for his pay
Spilled his blood in the dirt and the dust,
he’s come back to say

What he has seen is hard to believe,
and it does no good to just to pray
He asked of us to stand and we watched,(?)
in this war today

With his mind he said “no more”
With his heart he said “no more”
With his life he said “no more war”

With his eyes he said “no more”
With his body he said “no more”
With his voice he said “no more war”

“No more war”

And nothing’s too good for a veteran
Yeah this is what they say
So nothing is what they will get
in this new American way.

Lies that were told to get us to go,
are criminal let us be straight
Let’s get to the point where our voices get heard,
behind the Whitehouse gate

With his mind he said “no more”
With his heart he said “no more”
With his life he said “no more war”

With his eyes he said “no more”
With his voice he said “no more”
With his body he said “no more war”

“No more war”
“No more war”

No more innocents dying
No more terror rising
No more eulogizing
No more evangelizing
No more presidents lying

No more war

With our mind we’re saying “no more”
With our voice we’re saying “no more”
With our lives we’re saying “no more war”

No more war
No more war

let me flip the table a little bit...

America has the immoraly and wrongly invaded Iraq, i think we all agree on that one... how did diplomacy work in stopping that? how did massive protest and world outrage work out stopping the invasion? it didnt work and we are still there... how do you propose the world should force america out of iraq? how do you force the commnader-in-chief to withdraw? our "leader" is a great example of a person that dipolomacy and public/world outrage does not influence one bit... the government will not cut off funding... and we will not leave under this current leader... so after all diplomatic efforts have failed... after public opinion has clearly stated we want out... we are still there occuying a country...

how do you propose the world stop the aggresive american occupation?

my2hands · May 2008

El_Kabong wrote:

i'd say profiting off of these atrocities is far more heinous and deplorable than non-action

i agree that profiting of of situations like that are disgusting

let me ask you a question... how do you propose the world should react to Darfur and stop the genocide?

Abookamongstthemany · May 2008

my2hands wrote:

let me flip the table a little bit...

America has the immoraly and wrongly invaded Iraq, i think we all agree on that one... how did diplomacy work in stopping that? how did massive protest and world outrage work out stopping the invasion? it didnt work and we are still there... how do you propose the world should force america out of iraq? how do you force the commnader-in-chief to withdraw? our "leader" is a great example of a person that dipolomacy and public/world outrage does not influence one bit... the government will not cut off funding... and we will not leave under this current leader... so after all diplomatic efforts have failed... after public opinion has clearly stated we want out... we are still there occuying a country...

how do you propose the world stop the aggresive american occupation?

By not supporting people who will continue the war and future wars. By voting those people all out and replacing them with a government that better represents our ideals.

Do you not believe in democracy?

dangerboy · May 2008

sure, there was a peaceful solution to the holocaust. we should have sent nancy pelosi and obama over to talk hitler down, make him realize that he wasn't "creating peace".

the only peaceful solution to the holocaust would have been for hitler to stop it voluntarily (wasn't going to happen), or for him never to have started in the first place (happened). but once the REALITY of the facts sets in, what then? he wasn't listening to peace talk. what peaceful thing could we have done to get him to change his ways?

the peaceful solution came after the the allies created the conditions in which peace could exist, by taking the action of kicking their asses militarily

my2hands · May 2008

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

By not supporting people who will continue the war and future wars. By voting those people all out and replacing them with a government that better represents our ideals.

Do you not believe in democracy?

has democracy stopped the americans from invading and occupying iraq for the last 5 years?

the german people didnt stop hitler?

my point is what do you do to stop someone that WONT stop

Abookamongstthemany · May 2008

my2hands wrote:

has democracy stopped the americans from invading and occupying iraq for the last 5 years?

the german people didnt stop hitler?

my point is what do you do to stop someone that WONT stop

You keep on pressing them to stop until they no longer have the means necessary to do what we are against. If people all stood up and demanded more from their government they would get it.

You don't murder someone in order to keep them from murdering. That makes you a murderer.

my2hands · May 2008

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

You keep on pressing them to stop until they no longer have the means necessary to do what we are against.

sorry, but that is extremely naive

so just pressing the sudanese govt and the janjaweed until they no longer have the means to slaughter people? basicly letting them slaughter everyone until there is no one left to kill...

so you would just let hitler go unchecked, allow him to take over europe and slaughter tens of millions... while you "pressed" him?

absolutely incredible how far some people will take thier rigid ideals, at the expense of others

Abookamongstthemany · May 2008

my2hands wrote:

sorry, but that is extremely naive

so just pressing the sudanese govt and the janjaweed until they no longer have the means to slaughter people? basicly letting them slaughter everyone until there is no one left to kill...

so you would just let hitler go unchecked, allow him to take over europe and slaughter tens of millions... while you "pressed" him?

absolutely incredible how far some people will take thier rigid ideals, at the expense of others

If people stood up to these leaders and refused to buy into and support their goals of death and destruction then how would they accomplish them? This includes Nazi Germany, Iraq, the US or anyone group of leaders who are convincing people to get behind them and join in in the 'necessary' destruction.

All wars have to be sold to the people. And it looks like you're fine with buying some of them up, so don't act surprised that other people also have bought into rationalizations for war just like the people of Germany did under Hitler. Your mindset here is what keeps wars going and capable of gaining support. You bought their marketing and thusly help to continue the cycle.

Abookamongstthemany · May 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iTdxBECos8

dmitry · May 2008

my2hands wrote:

my point is what do you do to stop someone that WONT stop

It still sounds to me like you want other people to put their lives on the line for your personal beliefs. Are you willing to die or not?

JD Sal · May 2008

dmitry wrote:

It still sounds to me like you want other people to put their lives on the line for your personal beliefs. Are you willing to die or not?

This is an unfair question. So, because my2hands wants to stop innocent people from being killed by the use of military intervention, he has to join up and go on the front lines? Come on. That's like if a serial killer is on the loose killing people in my neighborhood, I shouldn't rely on the police to stop him, but instead I should put on the flak jacket and pack my nine. Ridiculous. He's not suggesting that we start a war. He's simply saying that we, as one of the worlds' super powers, have a moral obligation to help stop a million innocent people from genocide, with all options on the table.

Just like a cop will try (or should) to quell violence by peaceful means, but if that fails, you can't just stand by and let innocent people die.

my2hands · May 2008

JD Sal wrote:

This is an unfair question. So, because my2hands wants to stop innocent people from being killed by the use of military intervention, he has to join up and go on the front lines? Come on. That's like if a serial killer is on the loose killing people in my neighborhood, I shouldn't rely on the police to stop him, but instead I should put on the flak jacket and pack my nine. Ridiculous. He's not suggesting that we start a war. He's simply saying that we, as one of the worlds' super powers, have a moral obligation to help stop a million innocent people from genocide, with all options on the table.

Just like a cop will try (or should) to quell violence by peaceful means, but if that fails, you can't just stand by and let innocent people die.

right on...

Abookamongstthemany · May 2008

JD Sal wrote:

This is an unfair question. So, because my2hands wants to stop innocent people from being killed by the use of military intervention, he has to join up and go on the front lines? Come on. That's like if a serial killer is on the loose killing people in my neighborhood, I shouldn't rely on the police to stop him, but instead I should put on the flak jacket and pack my nine. Ridiculous. He's not suggesting that we start a war. He's simply saying that we, as one of the worlds' super powers, have a moral obligation to help stop a million innocent people from genocide, with all options on the table.

Just like a cop will try (or should) to quell violence by peaceful means, but if that fails, you can't just stand by and let innocent people die.

But the cop doesn't start a killing spree of his own, either.

dmitry · May 2008

JD Sal wrote:

This is an unfair question. So, because my2hands wants to stop innocent people from being killed by the use of military intervention, he has to join up and go on the front lines? Come on. That's like if a serial killer is on the loose killing people in my neighborhood, I shouldn't rely on the police to stop him, but instead I should put on the flak jacket and pack my nine. Ridiculous. He's not suggesting that we start a war. He's simply saying that we, as one of the worlds' super powers, have a moral obligation to help stop a million innocent people from genocide, with all options on the table.

Just like a cop will try (or should) to quell violence by peaceful means, but if that fails, you can't just stand by and let innocent people die.

You and my2hands are saying "we" like you will be participating. That's not fair to those who will actually die when you impose your morals upon them. If you want to help, then go help.

Sometimes non-action is more heinous and deplorable then taking action

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