Sometimes non-action is more heinous and deplorable then taking action
my2hands
Posts: 17,117
Occasionaly situations arise that military intervention is needed, and justifiable. And in these events not taking action is unexusable, selfish, and outright wrong. It is very easy for someone to say "but i am anti war" while drinking a latte on the couch typing on their laptop in a sprawling suburban neighborhood with white picket fences and a mailman that waves everyday. But not everyone has the same luxury of safety that you and I enjoy. I wish the world was a peaceful place where such atrocities didnt happen and evil men didn't climb to power. But until we collectively progress to that point, it is the responsibility of those that can act, to act in times of crisis and severe need.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=L7Kgl_S9Xok
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XsdPrQNa0Ig&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXdWDM4fmRY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-ojg9UjMk0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-ojg9UjMk0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps64xxJq0mg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTVp-hrJmGE&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=L7Kgl_S9Xok
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XsdPrQNa0Ig&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXdWDM4fmRY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-ojg9UjMk0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-ojg9UjMk0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps64xxJq0mg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTVp-hrJmGE&feature=related
Post edited by Unknown User on
0
Comments
You are demonstrating the very mindsets that those who are caught up in rationales of violence are about. Such mindsets that justify creating killing and horror cannot understand what creating peace really is and therefore will be ineffective in creating the peace they say they want. This is why the "diplomatic efforts" stemming from such mindsets will not work and why war becomes 'necessary' for those who justify war.
As I said earlier: "...by standing for peace and solutions ON ALL LEVELS, we communicate that in our thoughts, words and deeds." We show this in our actions. Those who justify war show they are not dedicated to peace in their thoughts/words/deeds. All aggressors justify their violence, and give themselves reasons and license to be violent as you have done yourself.
Those who are dedicated to creating peace continue to do so all over the world, in peaceful ways. Creating peace is happening everywhere. Those who are creating this peace recognize how powerful changing illusory mindsets is (in themselves and others) because one then eliminates the roots of violence. The few aggressors who identify themselves on the world stage identify their own inner conflict of creating war to create peace, and they show their inner violence externally with ugly, horrible inhumane consequences. Those who create peace and solve problems show their inner resolution of conflict, and externalize this, too, creating peace externally.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I'm not sure if you're in the military or not, but if you're not then it sounds like you should be signing up. Or do you just favor sending other people to intervene?
The theory of creating peace does not advocate false dichotomies such as "others must create peace, while I do otherwise". Integrity means having one's stance line up on all angles. And being willing to face it when ones stance does not line up.
Justifying and rationalizing what cannot be justified or rationalized shows fragmentation within, not integrity and wholeness.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
not even close...
i simply view the world sitting back and watching 1 million people getting slaughtered in a genocide immoral. almsot as immoral as the original crime.
a burglar kicks down your door, who do you call? the guys with the guns.
we all want peace. we all want stability. we all despise war. however some just choose to stick their head in the sand when it comes time to realize that sometimes action must be taken. it is unfortunate but true.
and if you think that makes me a war monger or that i need to sign up, then you are sadly mistaken and completely misunderstanding my point.
i advise everyone to watch a very good film, "Hotel Rwanda", and maybe you will better understand my point.
i advocate for peace. i have been a local advocate for peace in my community and belong to a well established peace organization in my communtiy. I have tought peace and non violence to hundreds, perhaps thousands, of young men and women i deal with in my job. i have also taken direct non-violent action agaisnt the current illegal and immoral war in Iraq and have been an outspoken critic of it since it began. But that does not mean i apply a rigid, non bending, self righteous philosophy to every situation. Nothing is absolute. Military inetrvention should be the last option, only when all other options have been exhausted. I just simply understand that occasionaly all other options will be used and non effective, and that occasionaly the military option must be exercised for a justifiable and moral cause. Such as the Revolutionary War and WW2. If it was not for men and women stepping up in the face of chaos for a greater cause, then we would not even have a country we call the United States of America.
I believe the world watching and not taking action while 1,000,000 people are slaughtered simply based on ethnic backgrounds is IMMORAL and UNEXCUSABLE. That does not make me a cheerleader for the military, that makes me a human being that believes people in a position to help, should help. And sometimes that help comes in the form of military intervention, as a last resort, to protect innocent people from the savagery of evil men and evil movements.
i am in no way talking about the current immoral war in Iraq.
the conversation, i hope, moves beyond that obvious clusterfuck into a genuine discussion about times when it may be neccesary to act.
How did that work out for the 6 million jews that were slaughetred or the 500,000 people of darfur that were slaughtered? these are real events and are not stories in a book
i am sorry but i view your take on this as naive
When we take a lack of something...ie: peace, if we add in a lack of peace, for example, war, we are not creating peace. We are creating more of a lack of peace.
Peace and the creation of peace are not responsible for what happened to the six million jews. Those creating infringement and lack of peace are responsible.
It seems that you suggest that it was war and killing that solved that problem ultimately. If it did, it did so maladaptively, rather than adaptively. When we maladapt rather than adapt, we continue to perpetuate our maladapted lifestyles, creating ongoing fluctuations of negative consequences for years, decades and centuries to come. It's evident that this has happened. The mindsets from the 40s still reverberate and echo on in people such as yourself in this moment. It's widespread that people continue to justify and perpetuate these cycles. Evolution and actual adaptation continue to exist beyond willful blindness to it.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
And how well did action work for those innocent people brutally slaughtered, killed and maimed in Nagasaki and Hiroshima or Dresden? And where are the people who killed them and gave those orders now?
naděje umírá poslední
I don't buy this eventual "absolute need" for war and conflict nonsense.
It's a crock of $hit driven into people's heads by war mongers...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
THERE IS NOT ALWAYS A PEACEFUL SOLUTION WHEN SUFFERING IS IMMINENT OR CURRENTLY ONGOING.
a man walks into a room where a woman is being raped. what does he do? what is the peaceful solution? should he plead with the rapist to stop? call the cops and wait? wish that someone had acted previously to prevent this poor soul from becoming the rapist and feel guilty for not doing more sooner? or should he just grab a bat and cave his head in, thus stopping the IMMINENT AND ONGOING SUFFERING OF THE INNOCENT?
now of course you wont answer that but at least read it and ask yourself what the moral choice is in that situation.
of course nations lie about it all the time. war isnt usually necessary when they say it is. but that doesnt negate the fact that in rare occasions violence is the only option, and in that case pacifism is no different than inaction.
When I read this sentence: "a man walks into a room where a woman is being raped. what does he do?"
I immediately thought the guy should go over pull the guy off and give him a few kicks, secure him and call the police. Not cave his head in with a bat and killing the person.
naděje umírá poslední
that would be the sensible choice, even though it requires force.
I ,being the caveman that i am, probably couldnt control myself in that situation though, and probably go overboard (hence the bat). so i guess i gave all bad answers
right, secure him until the guys with the guns come. however if the rapist posed a threat to the life of anyone in that situation then i could easily juystify taking lethal action against him. and by the way, in that situation i think i am goign to hacve to do more then "pull him off and give a few kicks", i have to assume when i engage him that he will not hesitate to take my or anyone elses life. that would not be a school yard fight type of situation. you would have to meet him with enough force to completely overwhelm him and imemdiately eliminate him as a threat. that doesnt mean kill him, but that could mean hitting him in thr head with a bat.
you have made the point exactly. action must be taken. i am not saying you drop a nuclear weapon and kill everything living and breathing. i am saying you simply intervene enough to stop the wrongdoing and the people committing these acts and to eliminate the threat. i am not advocating the use of excessive force, such as the examples given a few posts back of nagasaki, hiroshima, and dresden. those were immoral MASSIVE attacks on civilain population centers when negotiations were cleary leading to the Japanse surrender within days.
what was the peaceful solution to darfur?
or Nazi Germany rolling through Europe in Panzer tanks?
whats the peaceful solution to the crisis in Burma? where they are openly murdering peaceful Monks?
remember Tiananmen square? the PEACEFUL demonstrators were rolled over by tanks...
there are no absolutes so there is not a peaceful solution to every situation. conflict involes human beings, so therefore it is not always a conflict iof rational people on both sides, or either side for that matter
take the slaughter of the Tutsi's for example... do you think those are rational people hacking children to death with machete's? do you think those are rational people that are sytematically raping women and children?
And you will live with the consequences. For example, if you go beyond using reasonable force, there are legal ramifications for doing so. And if you were to kill him, as MrSmith advocates, you'd have the death of someone on your hands, in a situation when it was unnecessary. As we progress in life, if we are to remain healthy, we need to come to terms with our own actions. Killing someone unecessarily is an act that I imagine is challenging to come to terms with once the violence and inner hostility passes. Overkill in a situation, and stepping over those lines and outletting one's inner hostility is not about the original attempted rape in this case. The law differentiates quite carefully. I am personally grateful that the law has high standards for accountability, even if justice is meted out by flawed individuals.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
EVERY reality has a peaceful solution.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
You are correct, when we are willing to open our eyes and our minds, we are able to find the peaceful solution in every situation. And by doing it regarding past situations, we develop the perfect vision of hindsight, which then can become insight and foresight. If we want to keep justifying compromising ideals and holding our eyes shut, we will continue repeating the past errors we've made. my2hands acknowledges we are not evolved past war all the while he is actively caught up in that lack of evolution. Those who are the frontrunners creating the potential all humans have for creating solutions and peace are not perpetuating the lack of evolution.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I made the point that when I see a guy raping a woman, I will help this woman. You cannot compare this to war.
You say you're not advocating for excessive force, but isn't excessive force exactly what always happens? Name any war and I'll tell you how many innocent people were killed. The murders, because that's what they are, were never held accountable because this or that war was a "just" cause. The government will not be held accountable either.
And until this happens, until they are held accountable and responsible for their actions, there will never be something like a just war.
naděje umírá poslední
That is exactly what i thought when i read it to.
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
it worked out pretty well for the us businesses working w/ germany (including GE who supplied them w/ munitions even AFTER we got into the war, IBM, coca-cola....)
how's shit goin on the ivory coast? not too bad for nestle, since that's where their child slave plantions are located
what about the actions of israel? the international committee of the red cross, UNICEF and lots of other human and child rights organizations have reported on the effects of israel's abuses towards the palestinians and how a good % of their kids have severe malnutrition, lack of access to hospitals....
a good thing we could do to start would be stop sending our tax money to these abusive regimes that we only have to go kill a bunch of ppl in order to 'liberate' them from the threat we helped create
i'd say profiting off of these atrocities is far more heinous and deplorable than non-action
and how do you hope to have a successful regime change by murdering hundreds of thousands to millions of the population and devastating (abd poisoning w/ DU shells) their land? yet it's happened w/o having to go to war, invade, occupy....these excuses are bullshit ploys to mask their true intentions of control
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
took a bullet in the back for his pay
Spilled his blood in the dirt and the dust,
he’s come back to say
What he has seen is hard to believe,
and it does no good to just to pray
He asked of us to stand and we watched,(?)
in this war today
With his mind he said “no more”
With his heart he said “no more”
With his life he said “no more war”
With his eyes he said “no more”
With his body he said “no more”
With his voice he said “no more war”
“No more war”
And nothing’s too good for a veteran
Yeah this is what they say
So nothing is what they will get
in this new American way.
Lies that were told to get us to go,
are criminal let us be straight
Let’s get to the point where our voices get heard,
behind the Whitehouse gate
With his mind he said “no more”
With his heart he said “no more”
With his life he said “no more war”
With his eyes he said “no more”
With his voice he said “no more”
With his body he said “no more war”
“No more war”
“No more war”
No more innocents dying
No more terror rising
No more eulogizing
No more evangelizing
No more presidents lying
No more war
With our mind we’re saying “no more”
With our voice we’re saying “no more”
With our lives we’re saying “no more war”
No more war
No more war
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Come you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build all the bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks.
You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly.
Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain.
You fasten all the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion'
As young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud.
You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins.
How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
That even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do.
Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul.
And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand over your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
i think you will see i have not mentioned "war", even though war can sometimes be justified as well
i have mentioned military intervention... such as the Darfur crisis... you dont have to take the sudanese government to war, but you have to military intervene to stop the slaughter of 1,000,000 innocent people...
a bod dylan song sure aint gonna stop the janjaweed from slaughtering innocent people
i think some of you are having trouble discussing entierely different topics... i am not talking about wars such as vietnam and iraq or the "interventions" in latin america... and i am not talking about just the US, even though americans like to think of themselves as the only people on the planet that matter... i am talking about the world stepping in collectively, hopefully coordinated through the UN... the type of situations i am talking about are exactly why the UN was created
let me flip the table a little bit...
America has the immoraly and wrongly invaded Iraq, i think we all agree on that one... how did diplomacy work in stopping that? how did massive protest and world outrage work out stopping the invasion? it didnt work and we are still there... how do you propose the world should force america out of iraq? how do you force the commnader-in-chief to withdraw? our "leader" is a great example of a person that dipolomacy and public/world outrage does not influence one bit... the government will not cut off funding... and we will not leave under this current leader... so after all diplomatic efforts have failed... after public opinion has clearly stated we want out... we are still there occuying a country...
how do you propose the world stop the aggresive american occupation?
i agree that profiting of of situations like that are disgusting
let me ask you a question... how do you propose the world should react to Darfur and stop the genocide?
By not supporting people who will continue the war and future wars. By voting those people all out and replacing them with a government that better represents our ideals.
Do you not believe in democracy?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
the only peaceful solution to the holocaust would have been for hitler to stop it voluntarily (wasn't going to happen), or for him never to have started in the first place (happened). but once the REALITY of the facts sets in, what then? he wasn't listening to peace talk. what peaceful thing could we have done to get him to change his ways?
the peaceful solution came after the the allies created the conditions in which peace could exist, by taking the action of kicking their asses militarily
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged