What kind of military intervention do you support being used in Darfur? And at what point would you no longer support the amount of force they used?
Ralph Nader a warmonger?
Q: Foreign policy, the Middle East, Bosnia: your general view in that area?
A: Well I think when there’s mass slaughter going on or about to go on, as in some countries, there should be a multinational expeditionary force to help those people. Burundi is an example.
Q: Foreign policy, the Middle East, Bosnia: your general view in that area?
A: Well I think when there’s mass slaughter going on or about to go on, as in some countries, there should be a multinational expeditionary force to help those people. Burundi is an example.
and? is he me or abook or angelica or anyone other than ralph nader? at least nader isn't as free to use it as obama would be and seems to look up to...he seems to have a pretty aggressive and expanded foreign/military policy and yeah, i'll take nader saying he'd send ppl to bosnia over obama's policies any day
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Why do you keep answering questions with a question?
Are you guys really unable to comprehend a very simple analogy.
Let's try this one more time:
You, Abook, look outside your window and see a guy in the streets with a machine gun and he is killing innocent people on the street. Do you:
a) Hold up a sign and pressure him to stop the violence?
b) Go outside unarmed and try to stop him yourself
c) Call the police
Please ANSWER the question.
why do you guys keep avoiding answering my question, which i asked first??
can you or any of the other ones supporting it plz define 'military intervention' clsuter bombs? du weaponry? bunker busters? white phosphorous? shock and awe?
and your analogy is no good, sorry. especially in the case of the first gulf war you'd need to start it by saying you knew there was a very good chance this person was gonna commit these crimes and did nothing until he acted just so you could benefit from stopping him
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Nonviolence means avoiding not only external physical violence but also internal violence of spirit. You not only refuse to shoot a man, but you refuse to hate him.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars... Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. ~Martin Luther King Jr.
Nonviolence is the answer to the crucial political and moral questions of our time; the need for mankind to overcome oppression and violence without resorting to oppression and violence. Mankind must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.~Martin Luther King Jr.
Have we not come to such an impasse in the modern world that we must love our enemies - or else? The chain reaction of evil - hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars - must be broken, or else we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
"We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. Again and again we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force."
Nonviolence means avoiding not only external physical violence but also internal violence of spirit. You not only refuse to shoot a man, but you refuse to hate him.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars... Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. ~Martin Luther King Jr.
Nonviolence is the answer to the crucial political and moral questions of our time; the need for mankind to overcome oppression and violence without resorting to oppression and violence. Mankind must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.~Martin Luther King Jr.
Have we not come to such an impasse in the modern world that we must love our enemies - or else? The chain reaction of evil - hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars - must be broken, or else we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Thank-you for sharing Abook! We're in pretty good company!
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
"There is no way to peace, peace is the way.”
~ A. J. Muste
"Peace is not something you wish for; It's something you make, Something you do, Something you are, And something you give away."
~ Robert Fulghum
"Nonviolence is not a garment to be put on and off at will. Its seat is in the heart, and it must be an inseparable part of our being.”
~ Ghandi
"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."
~ Gandhi
"The essence of nonviolence is love. Out of love and the willingness to act selflessly, strategies, tactics, and techniques for a nonviolent struggle arise naturally. Nonviolence is not a dogma; it is a process."
~ Thich Nhat Hanh
"Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances."
~ Gandhi
"The principle of nonviolent resistance seeks to reconcile the truths of two opposites - acquiescence and violence - while avoiding the extremes and immoralities of both. The nonviolent resister agress with the person who acquisces that one should not be physically agressive toward his opponent; but he balances the equation by agreeing with the person of violence that evil must be resisted. He avoids the nonresistance of the former and the violent resistance of the latter. With nonviolent resistance, no invidual or group need to submit to any wrong, nor need anyone resort to violence in order to right a wrong."
~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Peace is not merely a distant goal that we seek, but a means by which we arrive at that goal."
~ Martin Luther King Jr.
"Nonviolence doesn't always work - but violence never does."
~ Madge Michaels-Cyrus
"Peace is not the absence of conflict, but the ability to cope with it”
"There is no such thing as defeat in non-violence".
~ Cesar Chavez
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
"There is no way to peace, peace is the way.”
~ A. J. Muste
"Peace is not something you wish for; It's something you make, Something you do, Something you are, And something you give away."
~ Robert Fulghum
"Nonviolence is not a garment to be put on and off at will. Its seat is in the heart, and it must be an inseparable part of our being.”
~ Ghandi
"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."
~ Gandhi
"The essence of nonviolence is love. Out of love and the willingness to act selflessly, strategies, tactics, and techniques for a nonviolent struggle arise naturally. Nonviolence is not a dogma; it is a process."
~ Thich Nhat Hanh
"Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances."
~ Gandhi
"The principle of nonviolent resistance seeks to reconcile the truths of two opposites - acquiescence and violence - while avoiding the extremes and immoralities of both. The nonviolent resister agress with the person who acquisces that one should not be physically agressive toward his opponent; but he balances the equation by agreeing with the person of violence that evil must be resisted. He avoids the nonresistance of the former and the violent resistance of the latter. With nonviolent resistance, no invidual or group need to submit to any wrong, nor need anyone resort to violence in order to right a wrong."
~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Peace is not merely a distant goal that we seek, but a means by which we arrive at that goal."
~ Martin Luther King Jr.
"Nonviolence doesn't always work - but violence never does."
~ Madge Michaels-Cyrus
"Peace is not the absence of conflict, but the ability to cope with it”
"There is no such thing as defeat in non-violence".
~ Cesar Chavez
great quotes and all... but how has that worked out for the slaughtered in darfur?
maybe you can go teach these to the janjaweed militia that is murdering children
are you on your way over there yet, or still just want other people to go?
i was thinking about sending you actually...
do i investigate when my house is burglarized? no, i call the people that signed up to do that and are experts at it...
and for the record, if my military engaged in only causes such as the ones i am talking about here, i may have actually signed up years ago. but as long as they continue to misuse and abuse their power for immoral actions such as Iraq i will pass.
some people around here are appearing so naive it really is funny at this point. all you guys keep doing is post quotes and refuse to provide answers to how to actually stop something like this once diplomatic efforts have failed... but i guess that is how internet peace activists think and operate... post some quotes on a message board and claim to be anti war and this will solve the worlds problems and stop a genocide, afraid to make the tough decisions or even attempt to question their overly rigid moral code :rolleyes:
What? The inability to understand people have differing viewpoints on this matter?
I think it's more sad.
no, the fact that there are so many naive people that will continue to argue a position that is obviously and GROSSLY wrong.
putting their ideals ahead of innocents getting slaughtered
so abook, how would you stop the darfur genocide? how would you stop murderers hacking children with machetes and then burning their village down and raping their mothers? and remember, this is not a hypothetical situtation
A: Well I think when there’s mass slaughter going on or about to go on, as in some countries, there should be a multinational expeditionary force to help those people. Burundi is an example.
great quotes and all... but how has that worked out for the slaughtered in darfur?
maybe you can go teach these to the janjaweed militia that is murdering children
I wonder if action in Darfur will help the people like action helped the innocent families in Dresden who were bombed. I wonder if action will liberate them like the Japanese people in Nagasaki and Hiroshima were liberated. Or will action bring peace, like it brought peace to the innocent people who were bombed in Kosovo by NATO?
Just look at the war in Iraq today. Do you actually believe things will be different in Darfur. That the military won't target innocent civilians as it has always done in the past?
no, the fact that there are so many naive people that will continue to argue a position that is obviously and GROSSLY wrong.
putting their ideals ahead of innocents getting slaughtered
so abook, how would you stop the darfur genocide? how would you stop murderers hacking children with machetes and then burning their village down and raping their mothers? and remember, this is not a hypothetical situtation
Kabong already asked this. You are the one who suggests handling it with action. What kind of action are you talking about?
can you or any of the other ones supporting it plz define 'military intervention' clsuter bombs? du weaponry? bunker busters? white phosphorous? shock and awe?
i see kabong is taking an inch and strecthing it to a mile... of course no one is going to advocate using that shit
bunker busters? in the sudan? come on dude...
maybe you didnt notice but i am not talking about unilateral preemptive war... i am talking about the world collectively, through the UN, providing security and protection for innocent people getting slaughtered. if it has to develop into a larger "war" such as WW2 then so be it, we didnt start the fire, i just want to put it out. and by the way i dont need to give an analogy or a hypothetical sitatuation since what i am talking about is a reality
you guys are too much... you act as if we are advocating for a mass bombing camapaign and nuclear weapons.
it is really comign off as pure comedic gold at this point...
Just answer the question. What kind of action are you advocating for?
You agreed Bush did an excellent job in the first gulf war, even though numerous atrocities were committed. So you see, I'm a bit confused as to what you are suggesting.
And because you opt to be the aggessor in your self-appointed role, "self-defense" is no longer applicable.
flaws in my logic? if i defend you from attack, then that is considered self defense in this country in a court of law. because people understand that sometimes people have to step up and protect others.
your logic is to sit back and watch 1,000,000 peeple get slaughtered...
and i am flawed :rolleyes:
DEFENSE, SELF-DEFENSE - A defense to certain criminal charges involving force (e.g. murder).
Use of force is justified when a person reasonably believes that it is necessary for the defense of oneself or another against the immediate use of unlawful force. However, a person must use no more force than appears reasonably necessary in the circumstances.
great quotes and all... but how has that worked out for the slaughtered in darfur?
maybe you can go teach these to the janjaweed militia that is murdering children
You and I both know we are powerless to change many things in this world. Your stance of violence doesn't make you personally more enabled than myself or Abook. The problems of the world continue, despite your position also. Let's keep that in mind. Your potency in terms of the violence you advocate is in your mind (unless you act it out in ways I'm not aware of). On the other hand, your potency in terms of creating change and peace and helping others is palpable. If you are still in the same career, you help people every day, and in terms of action, you support and live what I stand for as well.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Just answer the question. What kind of action are you advocating for?
You agreed Bush did an excellent job in the first gulf war, even though numerous atrocities were committed. So you see, I'm a bit confused as to what you are suggesting.
it is fun watchuign you guys wiggle and stretch
you keep asking "what EXACTLY would you do, how many trops, how many tanks, how many apache's would you use"?
you use what is enough to deter the threat. that can obviously depend on the threat. you guys act like we are talkign about invading a country and carpet bombing it? are you capable of seeing the difference?
Beyond ideology, in terms of action and outcome, authentic power entails knowing and accepting where one is powerless. Therefore one hones a laser-focus on where one's power IS. This is why one authentically empowered person can influence thousands, or millions. All it takes is one person.
Inauthentic power entails acting on powerlessness, in maladaptive ways perpetuating cycles.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
you keep asking "what EXACTLY would you do, how many trops, how many tanks, how many apache's would you use"?
you use what is enough to deter the threat. that can obviously depend on the threat. you guys act like we are talkign about invading a country and carpet bombing it? are you capable of seeing the difference?
What do you mean it would depend on the threat. We're talking about the situation in Darfur. You know the threat.
how would you stop the darfur genocide? how would you stop murderers hacking children with machetes and then burning their village down and raping their mothers? and remember, this is not a hypothetical situtation
Also, many mission have been mission to restore peace or bring peace, or to protect people, yet even in these missions innocent people were also murdered and slaughtered and bombed.
flaws in my logic? if i defend you from attack, then that is considered self defense in this country in a court of law. because people understand that sometimes people have to step up and protect others.
DEFENSE, SELF-DEFENSE - A defense to certain criminal charges involving force (e.g. murder).
Use of force is justified when a person reasonably believes that it is necessary for the defense of oneself or another against the immediate use of unlawful force. However, a person must use no more force than appears reasonably necessary in the circumstances.
It is self-evident that self-defense always refers to defending one's self. In your country, around the world, and in basic logic.
If you look, you'll realize your definition is for DEFENSE and Self-defense. Defending others remains different than defending one's self. Both use defense as your meaning says. Only one entails "self-defense".
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
It is self-evident that self-defense always refers to defending one's self. In your country, around the world, and in basic logic.
If you look, you'll realize your definition is for DEFENSE and Self-defense. Defending others remains different than defending one's self. Both use defense as your meaning says. Only one entails "self-defense".
what do you think should be done to stop a genocide? the one in darfur for an exact example
lets see if you will do what has not been done in over 100 posts...
I WILL ASK ONE MORE TIME... WHAT WOULD YOU DO TO STOP THE GENOCICDE IN DARFUR OR ANY OTHER GENOCIDE???
if you feel so strongly about your ideals on this matter then you should be able to give me an answer as to how to stop the mass killings of innocent people, in reality... all i have seen so far is a bunch of quotes and talking in circles about "self"
Comments
Exactly!
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Ralph Nader a warmonger?
Q: Foreign policy, the Middle East, Bosnia: your general view in that area?
A: Well I think when there’s mass slaughter going on or about to go on, as in some countries, there should be a multinational expeditionary force to help those people. Burundi is an example.
http://www.ontheissues.org/2004/Ralph_Nader_War_+_Peace.htm
and? is he me or abook or angelica or anyone other than ralph nader? at least nader isn't as free to use it as obama would be and seems to look up to...he seems to have a pretty aggressive and expanded foreign/military policy and yeah, i'll take nader saying he'd send ppl to bosnia over obama's policies any day
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
why do you guys keep avoiding answering my question, which i asked first??
can you or any of the other ones supporting it plz define 'military intervention' clsuter bombs? du weaponry? bunker busters? white phosphorous? shock and awe?
and your analogy is no good, sorry. especially in the case of the first gulf war you'd need to start it by saying you knew there was a very good chance this person was gonna commit these crimes and did nothing until he acted just so you could benefit from stopping him
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars... Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. ~Martin Luther King Jr.
Nonviolence is the answer to the crucial political and moral questions of our time; the need for mankind to overcome oppression and violence without resorting to oppression and violence. Mankind must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.~Martin Luther King Jr.
Have we not come to such an impasse in the modern world that we must love our enemies - or else? The chain reaction of evil - hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars - must be broken, or else we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Martin Luther King, Jr.
naděje umírá poslední
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Indeed
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
~ A. J. Muste
"Peace is not something you wish for; It's something you make, Something you do, Something you are, And something you give away."
~ Robert Fulghum
"Nonviolence is not a garment to be put on and off at will. Its seat is in the heart, and it must be an inseparable part of our being.”
~ Ghandi
"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."
~ Gandhi
"The essence of nonviolence is love. Out of love and the willingness to act selflessly, strategies, tactics, and techniques for a nonviolent struggle arise naturally. Nonviolence is not a dogma; it is a process."
~ Thich Nhat Hanh
"Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances."
~ Gandhi
"The principle of nonviolent resistance seeks to reconcile the truths of two opposites - acquiescence and violence - while avoiding the extremes and immoralities of both. The nonviolent resister agress with the person who acquisces that one should not be physically agressive toward his opponent; but he balances the equation by agreeing with the person of violence that evil must be resisted. He avoids the nonresistance of the former and the violent resistance of the latter. With nonviolent resistance, no invidual or group need to submit to any wrong, nor need anyone resort to violence in order to right a wrong."
~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Peace is not merely a distant goal that we seek, but a means by which we arrive at that goal."
~ Martin Luther King Jr.
"Nonviolence doesn't always work - but violence never does."
~ Madge Michaels-Cyrus
"Peace is not the absence of conflict, but the ability to cope with it”
"There is no such thing as defeat in non-violence".
~ Cesar Chavez
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
great quotes and all... but how has that worked out for the slaughtered in darfur?
maybe you can go teach these to the janjaweed militia that is murdering children
yes, just as in self defense laws in this country... self defense is also when you come to the defense of others in danger
are you on your way over there yet, or still just want other people to go?
i was thinking about sending you actually...
do i investigate when my house is burglarized? no, i call the people that signed up to do that and are experts at it...
and for the record, if my military engaged in only causes such as the ones i am talking about here, i may have actually signed up years ago. but as long as they continue to misuse and abuse their power for immoral actions such as Iraq i will pass.
some people around here are appearing so naive it really is funny at this point. all you guys keep doing is post quotes and refuse to provide answers to how to actually stop something like this once diplomatic efforts have failed... but i guess that is how internet peace activists think and operate... post some quotes on a message board and claim to be anti war and this will solve the worlds problems and stop a genocide, afraid to make the tough decisions or even attempt to question their overly rigid moral code :rolleyes:
no, the fact that there are so many naive people that will continue to argue a position that is obviously and GROSSLY wrong.
putting their ideals ahead of innocents getting slaughtered
so abook, how would you stop the darfur genocide? how would you stop murderers hacking children with machetes and then burning their village down and raping their mothers? and remember, this is not a hypothetical situtation
of course. it really is not that complicated...
I wonder if action in Darfur will help the people like action helped the innocent families in Dresden who were bombed. I wonder if action will liberate them like the Japanese people in Nagasaki and Hiroshima were liberated. Or will action bring peace, like it brought peace to the innocent people who were bombed in Kosovo by NATO?
Just look at the war in Iraq today. Do you actually believe things will be different in Darfur. That the military won't target innocent civilians as it has always done in the past?
naděje umírá poslední
Kabong already asked this. You are the one who suggests handling it with action. What kind of action are you talking about?
naděje umírá poslední
i see kabong is taking an inch and strecthing it to a mile... of course no one is going to advocate using that shit
bunker busters? in the sudan? come on dude...
maybe you didnt notice but i am not talking about unilateral preemptive war... i am talking about the world collectively, through the UN, providing security and protection for innocent people getting slaughtered. if it has to develop into a larger "war" such as WW2 then so be it, we didnt start the fire, i just want to put it out. and by the way i dont need to give an analogy or a hypothetical sitatuation since what i am talking about is a reality
Defense of others is not defense of the self.
And because you opt to be the aggessor in your self-appointed role, "self-defense" is no longer applicable.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
nuclear weapons :rolleyes:
you guys are too much... you act as if we are advocating for a mass bombing camapaign and nuclear weapons.
it is really comign off as pure comedic gold at this point...
Just answer the question. What kind of action are you advocating for?
You agreed Bush did an excellent job in the first gulf war, even though numerous atrocities were committed. So you see, I'm a bit confused as to what you are suggesting.
naděje umírá poslední
flaws in my logic? if i defend you from attack, then that is considered self defense in this country in a court of law. because people understand that sometimes people have to step up and protect others.
your logic is to sit back and watch 1,000,000 peeple get slaughtered...
and i am flawed :rolleyes:
DEFENSE, SELF-DEFENSE - A defense to certain criminal charges involving force (e.g. murder).
Use of force is justified when a person reasonably believes that it is necessary for the defense of oneself or another against the immediate use of unlawful force. However, a person must use no more force than appears reasonably necessary in the circumstances.
http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d030.htm
who is flawed?
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
it is fun watchuign you guys wiggle and stretch
you keep asking "what EXACTLY would you do, how many trops, how many tanks, how many apache's would you use"?
you use what is enough to deter the threat. that can obviously depend on the threat. you guys act like we are talkign about invading a country and carpet bombing it? are you capable of seeing the difference?
Inauthentic power entails acting on powerlessness, in maladaptive ways perpetuating cycles.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
What do you mean it would depend on the threat. We're talking about the situation in Darfur. You know the threat.
Also, many mission have been mission to restore peace or bring peace, or to protect people, yet even in these missions innocent people were also murdered and slaughtered and bombed.
naděje umírá poslední
It is self-evident that self-defense always refers to defending one's self. In your country, around the world, and in basic logic.
If you look, you'll realize your definition is for DEFENSE and Self-defense. Defending others remains different than defending one's self. Both use defense as your meaning says. Only one entails "self-defense".
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
what do you think should be done to stop a genocide? the one in darfur for an exact example
lets see if you will do what has not been done in over 100 posts...
if you feel so strongly about your ideals on this matter then you should be able to give me an answer as to how to stop the mass killings of innocent people, in reality... all i have seen so far is a bunch of quotes and talking in circles about "self"
You mean give a real answer, like you didn't do?
naděje umírá poslední