Sometimes non-action is more heinous and deplorable then taking action

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  • JD Sal
    JD Sal Posts: 790
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Because you're using an incorrect analogy to try to make a point.

    You guys CAN join up and help fight these wars you believe need to be fought. You think wars can stop what you see as the problem. There is nothing getting in the way of you joining the war effort and helping to achieve the military goals you wish to see.

    If I COULD stop the guy, I would. I wouldn't wait for someone else to do it when I could do it myself because he might kill someone in the meantime.

    That's the difference.

    Now answer my question. If you COULD stop the guy from killing more people, would you take that opportunity or would you sit there and call the police while he continues to kill more?

    Abook, you really should be a politican because you have an uncanny knack for not answering questions...."Well let me answer that by asking you this" :rolleyes:

    Can you please just answer this question? The situation is YOU are unarmed and you see someone outside killing people with a machine gun, what do you do? Would you call the police?

    Now, I understand where you're going with the distrust of American government to quell the violence in Darfur by not killing other innocent people. But the analogy is accurate. How do you stand by and let innocent people die? You might say well the cops in Philly just beat those 3 guys, so therefore all cops are bad and we should never call them when needed. Is that logical? That's why my2hands suggestion UN involvement for possible military intervention. If you disagree with that, then I'm sure you can agree that not enough has been done to stop the genocide in Darfur, yes?

    Also, I don't know why you keep saying things like I should join up and fight the wars I want to fight. We've debated here for some time now and it's like you just started talking to me today for the first time. You have no idea who I am, what I stand for, or what I believe in. Every analogy and comment is based on assumptions and not fact. I am an extremely peaceful person and I do not support war or violence, however I'm a realist. If a rogue group is terrorizing my neighborhood and killing my friends and family, I sure as hell want someone to intervene and help stop the bloodshed. Wouldn't you?
    "If no one sees you, you're not here at all"
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    JD Sal wrote:
    Abook, you really should be a politican because you have an uncanny knack for not answering questions...."Well let me answer that by asking you this" :rolleyes:

    Can you please just answer this question? The situation is YOU are unarmed and you see someone outside killing people with a machine gun, what do you do? Would you call the police?

    Now, I understand where you're going with the distrust of American government to quell the violence in Darfur by not killing other innocent people. But the analogy is accurate. How do you stand by and let innocent people die? You might say well the cops in Philly just beat those 3 guys, so therefore all cops are bad and we should never call them when needed. Is that logical? That's why my2hands suggestion UN involvement for possible military intervention. If you disagree with that, then I'm sure you can agree that not enough has been done to stop the genocide in Darfur, yes?

    Also, I don't know why you keep saying things like I should join up and fight the wars I want to fight. We've debated here for some time now and it's like you just started talking to me today for the first time. You have no idea who I am, what I stand for, or what I believe in. Every analogy and comment is based on assumptions and not fact. I am an extremely peaceful person and I do not support war or violence, however I'm a realist. If a rogue group is terrorizing my neighborhood and killing my friends and family, I sure as hell want someone to intervene and help stop the bloodshed. Wouldn't you?


    If I could stop the guy I would choose to stop the guy AND I'd call the police. I've already answered you.

    I don't know. How are you standing by and letting innocent people die? What do you feel could be done to stop it and why aren't you doing it then? If you could help stop the the guy with the machine gun outside your window, would you or would you wait while others could be killed and call upon someone else to do all the work for you?

    You may be an extremely peaceful person, however...you are defending war here and that is what I'm replying to.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • JD Sal
    JD Sal Posts: 790
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    If I could stop the guy I would choose to stop the guy AND I'd call the police. I've already answered you.

    I don't know. How are you standing by and letting innocent people die? What do you feel could be done to stop it and why aren't you doing it then? If you could help stop the the guy with the machine gun outside your window, would you or would you wait while others could be killed and call upon someone else to do all the work for you?

    You may be an extremely peaceful person, however...you are defending war here and that is what I'm replying to.

    To answer your question...I would stop the guy with the machine gun if I could. If I had a weapon, I'd try to stop him. If I could sneak up on him and try to wrestle the gun away, I would do that (it's impossible to accurately say what you would do in a situation like this until you're actually in one, but in my heart I can say I would try to help save lives and do whatever possible). But if I don't have a weapon or if I don't have a feasible way to get the weapon from the attacker, or do something positive instead of making the situation worse, then no, I'd simply wait for sufficient help to arrive.

    You said you would call the police to help, despite knowing that the police may need to use violence to stop the violence. That's my point. I'm not supporting a war; I'm supporting military intervention (as a last resort) to stop a genocide. If anyone does not agree with this, then please feel free to offer your own peaceful solution. This thread is now several pages long and not one person has offered a viable solution to the genocide in lieu of miltary intervention. I guarantee all of the same people who are advocating a peaceful solution to this problem would want some police or military intervention if the same thing was happening in their backyard and their friends and family were being slaughtered.
    "If no one sees you, you're not here at all"
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    JD Sal wrote:
    But if I don't have a weapon or if I don't have a feasible way to get the weapon from the attacker, or do something positive instead of making the situation worse, then no, I'd simply wait for sufficient help to arrive.


    That's my whole point about war.
    JD Sal wrote:
    You said you would call the police to help, despite knowing that the police may need to use violence to stop the violence. That's my point. I'm not supporting a war; I'm supporting military intervention (as a last resort) to stop a genocide. If anyone does not agree with this, then please feel free to offer your own peaceful solution. This thread is now several pages long and not one person has offered a viable solution to the genocide in lieu of miltary intervention. I guarantee all of the same people who are advocating a peaceful solution to this problem would want some police or military intervention if the same thing was happening in their backyard and their friends and family were being slaughtered.


    I don't support police in killing people. I know that they are supposed to use all other measures first before using guns and shooting them down. There are ways to apprehend an attacker with resorting to murder and I support those such as stun guns, rubber bullets or tear gas, perhaps.

    What kind of military intervention do you support being used in Darfur? And at what point would you no longer support the amount of force they used?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • my2hands
    my2hands Posts: 17,117
    JD Sal wrote:

    you would call the police to help, despite knowing that the police may need to use violence to stop the violence. That's my point. I'm not supporting a war; I'm supporting military intervention (as a last resort) to stop a genocide. If anyone does not agree with this, then please feel free to offer your own peaceful solution. This thread is now several pages long and not one person has offered a viable solution to the genocide in lieu of miltary intervention. I guarantee all of the same people who are advocating a peaceful solution to this problem would want some police or military intervention if the same thing was happening in their backyard and their friends and family were being slaughtered.


    thank you


    damn jd sal, i didnt know you were a war monger that wanted to sign up and fight in iraq? :rolleyes:
  • my2hands
    my2hands Posts: 17,117
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    What kind of military intervention do you support being used in Darfur? And at what point would you no longer support the amount of force they used?

    self defense mode, whatever it took to nuetralize the threat and protect the innocents
  • my2hands
    my2hands Posts: 17,117
    JD Sal wrote:
    **bangs head on desk**

    it is almost comical isnt it?
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    my2hands wrote:
    self defense mode, whatever it took to nuetralize the threat and protect the innocents


    That's a non-answer. where would you draw the line? at what point would you not go along with supporting the attempt to 'neutralize' the threat?

    That's the real question here.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    my2hands wrote:
    it is almost comical isnt it?


    What? The inability to understand people have differing viewpoints on this matter?

    I think it's more sad.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    my2hands wrote:
    self defense mode, whatever it took to nuetralize the threat and protect the innocents
    Interesting. You consider it self-defense when you take the role of aggressor in a battle that you enter by choice?
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    angelica wrote:
    Interesting. You consider it self-defense when you take the role of aggressor in a battle that you enter by choice?


    Exactly!
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • flywallyfly
    flywallyfly Posts: 1,453
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    What kind of military intervention do you support being used in Darfur? And at what point would you no longer support the amount of force they used?

    Ralph Nader a warmonger?

    Q: Foreign policy, the Middle East, Bosnia: your general view in that area?

    A: Well I think when there’s mass slaughter going on or about to go on, as in some countries, there should be a multinational expeditionary force to help those people. Burundi is an example.

    http://www.ontheissues.org/2004/Ralph_Nader_War_+_Peace.htm
  • El_Kabong
    El_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    flywallyfly wrote:
    Ralph Nader a warmonger?

    Q: Foreign policy, the Middle East, Bosnia: your general view in that area?

    A: Well I think when there’s mass slaughter going on or about to go on, as in some countries, there should be a multinational expeditionary force to help those people. Burundi is an example.

    http://www.ontheissues.org/2004/Ralph_Nader_War_+_Peace.htm


    and? is he me or abook or angelica or anyone other than ralph nader? at least nader isn't as free to use it as obama would be and seems to look up to...he seems to have a pretty aggressive and expanded foreign/military policy and yeah, i'll take nader saying he'd send ppl to bosnia over obama's policies any day ;)
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • El_Kabong
    El_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    JD Sal wrote:
    Why do you keep answering questions with a question?

    Are you guys really unable to comprehend a very simple analogy.

    Let's try this one more time:

    You, Abook, look outside your window and see a guy in the streets with a machine gun and he is killing innocent people on the street. Do you:

    a) Hold up a sign and pressure him to stop the violence?

    b) Go outside unarmed and try to stop him yourself

    c) Call the police

    Please ANSWER the question.


    why do you guys keep avoiding answering my question, which i asked first??

    can you or any of the other ones supporting it plz define 'military intervention' clsuter bombs? du weaponry? bunker busters? white phosphorous? shock and awe?

    and your analogy is no good, sorry. especially in the case of the first gulf war you'd need to start it by saying you knew there was a very good chance this person was gonna commit these crimes and did nothing until he acted just so you could benefit from stopping him
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    Nonviolence means avoiding not only external physical violence but also internal violence of spirit. You not only refuse to shoot a man, but you refuse to hate him.
    Martin Luther King, Jr.


    Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars... Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. ~Martin Luther King Jr.

    Nonviolence is the answer to the crucial political and moral questions of our time; the need for mankind to overcome oppression and violence without resorting to oppression and violence. Mankind must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.~Martin Luther King Jr.


    Have we not come to such an impasse in the modern world that we must love our enemies - or else? The chain reaction of evil - hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars - must be broken, or else we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.
    Martin Luther King, Jr.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Collin
    Collin Posts: 4,931
    "We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. Again and again we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force."

    Martin Luther King, Jr.
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


    naděje umírá poslední
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Nonviolence means avoiding not only external physical violence but also internal violence of spirit. You not only refuse to shoot a man, but you refuse to hate him.
    Martin Luther King, Jr.


    Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars... Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. ~Martin Luther King Jr.

    Nonviolence is the answer to the crucial political and moral questions of our time; the need for mankind to overcome oppression and violence without resorting to oppression and violence. Mankind must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.~Martin Luther King Jr.


    Have we not come to such an impasse in the modern world that we must love our enemies - or else? The chain reaction of evil - hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars - must be broken, or else we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.
    Martin Luther King, Jr.
    Thank-you for sharing Abook! :) We're in pretty good company!
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    angelica wrote:
    Thank-you for sharing Abook! :) We're in pretty good company!


    Indeed :)
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    "There is no way to peace, peace is the way.”
    ~ A. J. Muste



    "Peace is not something you wish for; It's something you make, Something you do, Something you are, And something you give away."
    ~ Robert Fulghum



    "Nonviolence is not a garment to be put on and off at will. Its seat is in the heart, and it must be an inseparable part of our being.”
    ~ Ghandi



    "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."
    ~ Gandhi



    "The essence of nonviolence is love. Out of love and the willingness to act selflessly, strategies, tactics, and techniques for a nonviolent struggle arise naturally. Nonviolence is not a dogma; it is a process."
    ~ Thich Nhat Hanh



    "Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances."
    ~ Gandhi



    "The principle of nonviolent resistance seeks to reconcile the truths of two opposites - acquiescence and violence - while avoiding the extremes and immoralities of both. The nonviolent resister agress with the person who acquisces that one should not be physically agressive toward his opponent; but he balances the equation by agreeing with the person of violence that evil must be resisted. He avoids the nonresistance of the former and the violent resistance of the latter. With nonviolent resistance, no invidual or group need to submit to any wrong, nor need anyone resort to violence in order to right a wrong."
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.



    "Peace is not merely a distant goal that we seek, but a means by which we arrive at that goal."
    ~ Martin Luther King Jr.



    "Nonviolence doesn't always work - but violence never does."
    ~ Madge Michaels-Cyrus



    "Peace is not the absence of conflict, but the ability to cope with it”



    "There is no such thing as defeat in non-violence".
    ~ Cesar Chavez
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • my2hands
    my2hands Posts: 17,117
    angelica wrote:
    "There is no way to peace, peace is the way.”
    ~ A. J. Muste



    "Peace is not something you wish for; It's something you make, Something you do, Something you are, And something you give away."
    ~ Robert Fulghum



    "Nonviolence is not a garment to be put on and off at will. Its seat is in the heart, and it must be an inseparable part of our being.”
    ~ Ghandi



    "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."
    ~ Gandhi



    "The essence of nonviolence is love. Out of love and the willingness to act selflessly, strategies, tactics, and techniques for a nonviolent struggle arise naturally. Nonviolence is not a dogma; it is a process."
    ~ Thich Nhat Hanh



    "Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances."
    ~ Gandhi



    "The principle of nonviolent resistance seeks to reconcile the truths of two opposites - acquiescence and violence - while avoiding the extremes and immoralities of both. The nonviolent resister agress with the person who acquisces that one should not be physically agressive toward his opponent; but he balances the equation by agreeing with the person of violence that evil must be resisted. He avoids the nonresistance of the former and the violent resistance of the latter. With nonviolent resistance, no invidual or group need to submit to any wrong, nor need anyone resort to violence in order to right a wrong."
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.



    "Peace is not merely a distant goal that we seek, but a means by which we arrive at that goal."
    ~ Martin Luther King Jr.



    "Nonviolence doesn't always work - but violence never does."
    ~ Madge Michaels-Cyrus



    "Peace is not the absence of conflict, but the ability to cope with it”



    "There is no such thing as defeat in non-violence".
    ~ Cesar Chavez


    great quotes and all... but how has that worked out for the slaughtered in darfur?


    maybe you can go teach these to the janjaweed militia that is murdering children

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