How can Ed and others be so blind?

clark_kent wrote:

that's a fancy way of saying no comment.

It's very telling how you minimize the point I made to fit your agenda, rather than hear my point.

i think it is very telling that you are so eager to point out the "logical failings" of obama supporters' points of view, but stonewall regarding the logic underlying the original poster's point of view because you happen to agree with his political result. obama supporters are voting based on uninformed and uncritical fear, but the original poster is just expressing a point of view? come on. if that doesn't show an illogical, emotionally biased judgment call, i don't know what does.

Like everyone, I have my own agenda. And I'm okay with this. The logical fallacies are rampant...they are all over the place. I point to what leaps out at me alarmingly and I speak to that. Not to the fallacies you see, in support of you. Plus, when Obama supporters present their cases with sound logic, more power to them! When they choose with balance and clarity, that's what I love to see! When they (or anyone) chooses from unconscious issues, beyond their awareness, I see the illness cycles continue.

angelica wrote:

I see fear as a highly valid emotional response, along with the other so called "negative" emotions. I think it's immensely important to acknowledge, own and experience our own fear in order to get the very valid wisdom and emotional intelligence it ALWAYS contains. I can easily regularly see when people do not do this...they show it because they, in their own denial of emotion, project their own fear outward and think it comes from the world being scary and awful. Those who own, experience and feel their emotions see a very different worldview. They see their emotions as being about them, not about some demon "out there".

I totally respect your opinion and your reasons for voting for Obama. I respect and value all people's reasons for when they choose to vote Obama (or otherwise). Even if they are predominantly emotional! Whether from Love, hope or fear!!

Besides presenting principles that I see, what I tend to do is challenge logical distortions. And yet even if I prove a logical distortion with reason, I totally respect that it's up to the individual what they do with that, including if they choose to ignore it!

I have not come close to painting Obama as a candidate as being solely (or even remotely!) guided by fear!! I would not do this because it is so far from what I actually think!! People are assuming that because I use discernment with logical assertions, that it indicates what my general beliefs are. People are completely oblivious to that were I a politician, I would be very similar to Obama myself, given I'm very centrist in some very predominant ways! While people lump me in the Nader camp, no matter how much I protest, they overlook the reality!

but aren't you assuming that people are ignoring their emotions when it comes to decision making...?

correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying people need to separate their emotions from decision making and only them can they make a correct choice...

I contend that we are complex beings and too many variables are in play when making choices and decisions, thus I accept emotions are part of choices, therefore, I accept a persons choices if based on both facts, as they see them, and emotions as they feel them....

Isn't it a little conceded to say that Ed, Niel, Bruce and the millions of Obama supporters are wrong, and that people who don't support Obama are right?

Not only that but you are attacking Obama the same way Gore was attacked in 2000 and that proved inaccurate.

Isn't it possible you are falling pray to the anti-Obama Propaganda floating around on the internet?

I say watch the debates and then see how different McCain and Obama really are.

inmytree wrote:

but aren't you assuming that people are ignoring their emotions when it comes to decision making...?

I've been learning about healthy emotional responses indepthly for about 14 years. I'm assuming about as much as a mechanic assumes when he diagnoses the problem under the hood of your car.

edit: I have studied the basic psychological problems with humans all these years time, by information and personal experience. I tend to not judge people's views personally, because that is about me and my own filters. And yet, the trends and psychological dynamics in general that I study are beyond individual personal views. What I'm saying is, I can't see into your heart..or another's enough to judge. I can see a logical fallacy when it appears, though, and I call people on it. When they cannot logically justify it, it then stands to me as openly called out and proven as distorted. By that same token, at any time it is actually logically justified, then it stands as valid. There are many, many occasions on this board where individuals cannot muster the logical justification and therefore their own arguments fall flat due to imbalance.

correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying people need to separate their emotions from decision making and only them can they make a correct choice...

You are wrong.

I'm saying people need to integrate their emotions with their logic and decision-making, which is the exact opposite of separating them from our decision making. What people are already doing is doing the illusory process of separating their emotions (which is impossible). Doing this is what is creating the lack of healthy integrated intelligence necessary for realistic discernment. This separation is what causes the denial, and unconsciousness that politicians and the media manipulate. What I suggest, in terms of integration, is the antidote, or the 'heal' to the manipulation and unconsciousness. I also fully accept that people will only come to such change when they are ready, and when it coincides with their personal purposes, as it should be.

I contend that we are complex beings and too many variables are in play when making choices and decisions, thus I accept emotions are part of choices, therefore, I accept a persons choices if based on both facts, as they see them, and emotions as they feel them....

Again, I always support people doing the best they can with what they've got. I would not be so arrogant to assume that I have even the slightest idea of what is right for others, and I resent when others assume that for me.

And as the same time, I speak to distorted dynamics when they appear. People can listen, or not. This is my forte, and purpose, and I respond to my own inner integrated potential with honour and integrity.

_outlaw wrote:

I love responses like these. It shows that I just wasted my time writing an entire post.

lighten up, my friend...:)

a little humor is a good thing...not saying you don't have any, just take a minute and step back...

inmytree wrote:

cool...

I think I get...:)

cool.

decides2dream wrote:

certainly your opinion to hold...but in my eyes, far from the truth.

What I refer to is the general gist of psychology. The underlying problems with the human condition have been identified for those who choose to understand.

The problem is that the average person is using the same flawed program that is imbalanced emotionally, reactive, and unconscious, to assess whether they are reactive. Therefore their conclusions of this flawed program are lacking and will gravitate towards further evolution.

This is why I think it's important for people to learn to understand what has been 'objectively' discerned psychologically, through study, beyond opinion. Also, when people go outside their own flawed program, and find the objective information and then use it to inform their opinions, they can begin to alter the flawed programs. Again, people will only do so when ready.

And those who are not ready will continue to greet such suggestions with discord.

radiohead33 wrote:

people like me dont know about compromise. The musicians I listed NEVER compromised EVER. How do you reconcile that. You think Tom Waits compromises? Fugazi? Dylan? They do what the hell they want. They dont care about money, they care about art. Politicians only care about votes. To think obama is different in this respect is at the very least naive.

you dont get an end to a war with a candidate who promises more war. John Kerry was the same way. Why did people act like he was gonna end the war? He never said he was going to.

I'm assuming you listen to PJ or else you wouldn't post here. But it looks like they have compromised a lot over the years:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3007/2616524625_0fef98dbe8.jpg?v=0

Did you ever think a) you'd ever see this marquee and b) see it advertised on the pearl jam website as one of their tour photos?

my2hands wrote:

Solat13 presented by Verizon

Tickets available through Ticketmaster.

radiohead33 wrote:

I cant think of many people I respect more than Uncle Bruce, Uncle Neil, Dylan, Ed, Bright Eyes, etc...

They exhude class and integrity in a world of fake and lies.

Which makes their support of Obama all the more head scratching.

Matt Taibbi talked about the 2 possible options. Either Obama really is a person who will change things, or he is the epitome of the disturbing lenghts to which the system continues to reinvent and package itself as something it isnt.

Obama isnt radical. He is a centrist. He isnt even antiwar. He will continue to keep troops in the middle east. Every single person I listed above is for pulling ALL troops out of the war. Many were antiwar before the war even began. Uncle Bruce was saying "Impeach Bush" and "bring em home" in 2003.

These are all intelligent rockers, intelligent individuals, who, I think I am not alone in saying this, helped in some way to shape my outlook on politics and life in general.

Obama's wearing the "mellencamp and uncle bruce" rolled up shirts is laughable. Bruce speaks to me and to us.

All Obama and Mccain want is our votes. There isnt gold at the end of the Election 2008 rainbow. Obama is a liar, all politicians are.

What doesnt make sense is why people act like obama is something different? We have hundreds of years of history, and every single election have been let down. Politicians are liars, BY NATURE. Why is obama exempt?

The war wont end by voting politicians into office. Nothing has ever changed by that action. The real power lies in people getting pissed and doing something to stop the madness. I dont put trust in politicians.

I don't put trust in politicians either....so may the best candidate win! At this point - I'm still educating myself. I will still vote...but at this point....I'm at a complete loss! I don't like either.