Interesting thought I had.
Comments
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onelongsong wrote:i have faith in what i believe. i thought we established that. i gave examples of free will but here's another.
many years ago i searched my entire apartment for enough change to buy a pack of cigarettes. i went to the corner gas station and while standing in line; the person in front of me dropped a $20 bill on the floor as they pulled their hand out of their pocket. no one saw it and it was before all these security cameras became popular. i picked up the bill and still no one noticed. i could have easily stepped to the counter and paid for my cigarettes with the $20. instead; i said excuse me; you dropped this. you'll never know how badly i needed that $20 but i chose to return it. OF MY OWN FREE WILL.
I've made the same choices, but this is not evidence of free-will, this is merely evidence of will. As you initially stated, you have "Faith" in your belief, and faith is a belief in something that has no evidence. So you've fully admitted that you cannot provide evidence for your belief. Then you are only looking to invalidate mine, because my view challenges yours, the view you are comfortable with, because it paints a nice ideal picture of reality, and if you are forced to abandon your belief in free-will, then the very foundation of your other beliefs are challenged and that is uncomfortable to you. But none of that matters, because it doesn't change reality, reality is, you don't have free-will. You choose to deny it, and it's not your free-will that causes you to make that choice, but rather your comfort levels with the two concepts. Because as you've said, I have evidence and you do not, your belief is absolute speculation and an ingorance of known truths. Now you will move on to say that nothing is absolute and attempt to invalidate all of reality in order to rationalize your beliefs.I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire0 -
yes chances are really good in fact...thanks for the lesson i'll shut up now.Ahnimus wrote:
Any chance that you are just being a fucking prick?Oh dear dad
Can you see me now
I am myself
Like you somehow
I'll ride the wave
Where it takes me
I'll hold the pain
Release me0 -
we don’t know just where our bones will rest,
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..0 -
Rats of Multa wrote:again youre generalizing from specific examples, while the issues under review here are more universal. the fact that forces exist which exert [effect] influence upon whatever choices exist for whatever "beings" [consciousness?] that exist neither proves determinism nor disproves "FREE-will", but merely demonstrates that levels of determination do surround most events of life.
but how about the fact of precedents? is the US Constitution a product of determinism? by your logic there should never be revolutions, never anyone who steps aside from the past and creates change(s), because, based on previous causes, everyone prior was determined to behave in a certain way--but that is not the reality of life. changes occur daily, and while you might say Nature is determined to do so, you cannot claim that ALL of the means through which She changes are predetermined, because variables exist, anomolies occur, and new causes are created from old effects.
i think youre a brick wall still, and that is not a compliment.
The field of socio-biology explores the darwinian evolution of society and has picked up a lot of momentum. It tests a theory that variation occurs in society, a person will have a thought, due to other causes and if that thought is benneficial to society it will be selected for. Nothing amazing or mysterious about it really, it's the same basic mechanism that drives everything else.
Now you acknowledge determinism to a degree and you don't deny the evidence is there, but you still haven't provided real evidence for free-will, that is still speculation, in the absence of speculation all there is, is determinism.I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire0 -
Rats of Multa wrote:so is yours.
I have explained it, and you can go back to Democritus, long before Christianity or any concept of free-will and find explanations. Currently there are hundreds of authored explanations of determinism. Many attempt at free-will, but in the process, simply describe other determinants.I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire0 -
somebodyelse'ssky wrote:yes chances are really good in fact...thanks for the lesson i'll shut up now.
this is starting to get like the weather channel with the same old presenter.
please provide an ad break occassionally to keep us all from nodding off.
NOPE!!!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift0 -
AAAHHH!!! What is the point of arguing over this?! If somebody doesn't believe something, quit trying to make them believe it by arguing!! What's the point???
God cannot be proved by science, it just isn't going to happen. Some people can't understand having faith in something they can't see, and some people can't understand in NOT believing that there is a God. But it's wrong to try to argue somebody into believing something, not to mention stupid.
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Rant over.When life gives you lemons, throw them at somebody.0 -
I've been reading the last few pages and I'd just like to say this. I read another thread that ended in a free-will debate with ffg who gave a philosophical explanation of why we have free-will, I didn't understand everything. But I do think we have free-will. On a scientific basis for example. I firmly trust (let's even say, believe in) darwinian evolution. It's basic principle is based on luck and randomness. Punctual mutations are accidents wich happen all the time in a randomn fashion. At least there have been no studies to state otherwise.
And if there is luck that leaves a place for free-will.
I also believe our universe is infinite. And (I'm not really a pro on cosmology), if a universe is infinite it is not determnistic, I think.0 -
Ahnimus wrote:The field of socio-biology explores the darwinian evolution of society and has picked up a lot of momentum. It tests a theory that variation occurs in society, a person will have a thought, due to other causes and if that thought is benneficial to society it will be selected for. Nothing amazing or mysterious about it really, it's the same basic mechanism that drives everything else.
Now you acknowledge determinism to a degree and you don't deny the evidence is there, but you still haven't provided real evidence for free-will, that is still speculation, in the absence of speculation all there is, is determinism.
where is the absence of speculation?
speculation is perhaps the most powerful determinant in Nature--perhaps creating consciousness where previously only instinct existed/dominated/"determined" as the nature of animation.
i acknowledge determinants, but i refute determinism. not because i wish, but because i can will.we don’t know just where our bones will rest,
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..0 -
Kann wrote:I've been reading the last few pages and I'd just like to say this. I read another thread that ended in a free-will debate with ffg who gave a philosophical explanation of why we have free-will, I didn't understand everything. But I do think we have free-will. On a scientific basis for example. I firmly trust (let's even say, believe in) darwinian evolution. It's basic principle is based on luck and randomness. Punctual mutations are accidents wich happen all the time in a randomn fashion. At least there have been no studies to state otherwise.
And if there is luck that leaves a place for free-will.
I also believe our universe is infinite. And (I'm not really a pro on cosmology), if a universe is infinite it is not determnistic, I think.
That makes no sense to me. How does the randomness of a coin toss mean the coin has free-will?I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire0 -
Rats of Multa wrote:where is the absence of speculation?
speculation is perhaps the most powerful determinant in Nature--perhaps creating consciousness where previously only instinct existed/dominated/"determined" as the nature of animation.
i acknowledge determinants, but i refute determinism. not because i wish, but because i can will.
Speculation is only a function of organic life, it's part of causality inference, but it's not what allows for a solid understanding, empirical observation is responsible for the ultimate understanding. The universe does not speculate.I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire0 -
ForestBrain wrote:AAAHHH!!! What is the point of arguing over this?! If somebody doesn't believe something, quit trying to make them believe it by arguing!! What's the point???
God cannot be proved by science, it just isn't going to happen. Some people can't understand having faith in something they can't see, and some people can't understand in NOT believing that there is a God. But it's wrong to try to argue somebody into believing something, not to mention stupid.
.
.
.
.
Rant over.
Because your delusional belief in this God entity and this ridiculous old book causes you to be perjudice against homosexuality. The point of view I discuss requires a mutual understanding of everyone regardless of their predispositions.I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire0 -
Ahnimus wrote:I've made the same choices, but this is not evidence of free-will, this is merely evidence of will. As you initially stated, you have "Faith" in your belief, and faith is a belief in something that has no evidence. So you've fully admitted that you cannot provide evidence for your belief. Then you are only looking to invalidate mine, because my view challenges yours, the view you are comfortable with, because it paints a nice ideal picture of reality, and if you are forced to abandon your belief in free-will, then the very foundation of your other beliefs are challenged and that is uncomfortable to you. But none of that matters, because it doesn't change reality, reality is, you don't have free-will. You choose to deny it, and it's not your free-will that causes you to make that choice, but rather your comfort levels with the two concepts. Because as you've said, I have evidence and you do not, your belief is absolute speculation and an ingorance of known truths. Now you will move on to say that nothing is absolute and attempt to invalidate all of reality in order to rationalize your beliefs.
so you figured that out sherlock? i was under the impression that we understood that days ago when this started. as i recall; you were trying to prove that my views were wrong. personally; i don't care what you believe. i've sat here and listened to your lip service for days now and i don't hear any real proof. when you get close you come up with it works because it's suppose to or something like that. well; that doesn't sound very scientific to me. neither does it's too complicated for us as humans. that response alone leads to God as the answer. i'm also sure i can go back and find 1 dodged question for every page in this thread.
yes sir; you are under the microscope here. you're the preacher trying to jam crap down our throats that we don't believe. of course you will be hit with questions that try to undermine your position. you won't change my faith so we're not debating. you are trying to prove something to the board and we are trying to tell you why we don't believe it. it's not a personal attack. not at all. we agreed that man is flawed yet you present the opinions of flawed men as evidence. then you throw in outdated greek mythology.
had you convinced anyone else here i may have a different opinion or at least look at it differently; but you've completely struck out here.0 -
Ahnimus wrote:That makes no sense to me. How does the randomness of a coin toss mean the coin has free-will?
I'm not talking of a coin toss. I'm talking of randomn mutations. The basic event in darwinian evolution. Happens every second, all the time, every where in every living organism. If the mutations are random, their positions are not determined by anything. You should also check out random transpositions in our genes.0 -
this is a paid advertisement / not sponsored by nor do it's views represent this network in any way all claims are the responsibility of the advertiser.Jeanie wrote:this is starting to get like the weather channel with the same old presenter.
please provide an ad break occassionally to keep us all from nodding off.
WAS JESUS GAY ? WHAT DOES JESUS REALLY THINK ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY ? FIND OUT EVERYTHING YOU ALWAYS WANTED TO ASK JESUS IN THIS SPECIAL EDITION 7,000 PAGE GUIDE TO UNDERSTANDING RELIGION. ORDER NOW AND WE'LL THROW IN THE WORLD RENOWNED, "WILL I GET INTO HEAVEN AND WHAT I NEED TO KNOW WHEN I ARRIVE" ABSOLUTELY FREE ? INCLUDES EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT GETTING IN TO HEAVEN AND WILL LET YOU KNOW IN ADVANCE WHETHER OR NOT YOUR IN OR NOT. A MUST HAVE FOR EVERY COLLECTION. ALL THIS IS YOURS FOR TWO LOW PAYMENTS OF 19.99 PLUS SHIPPING AND HANDLING.Oh dear dad
Can you see me now
I am myself
Like you somehow
I'll ride the wave
Where it takes me
I'll hold the pain
Release me0 -
Kann wrote:I'm not talking of a coin toss. I'm talking of randomn mutations. The basic event in darwinian evolution. Happens every second, all the time, every where in every living organism. If the mutations are random, their positions are not determined by anything. You should also check out random transpositions in our genes.
They appear random. But many things appear random with limited knowledge, such as the coin-toss. I apologize for not being 2-dimensional.I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire0 -
onelongsong wrote:so you figured that out sherlock? i was under the impression that we understood that days ago when this started. as i recall; you were trying to prove that my views were wrong. personally; i don't care what you believe. i've sat here and listened to your lip service for days now and i don't hear any real proof. when you get close you come up with it works because it's suppose to or something like that. well; that doesn't sound very scientific to me. neither does it's too complicated for us as humans. that response alone leads to God as the answer. i'm also sure i can go back and find 1 dodged question for every page in this thread.
yes sir; you are under the microscope here. you're the preacher trying to jam crap down our throats that we don't believe. of course you will be hit with questions that try to undermine your position. you won't change my faith so we're not debating. you are trying to prove something to the board and we are trying to tell you why we don't believe it. it's not a personal attack. not at all. we agreed that man is flawed yet you present the opinions of flawed men as evidence. then you throw in outdated greek mythology.
had you convinced anyone else here i may have a different opinion or at least look at it differently; but you've completely struck out here.
Well then, you shouldn't debate any issues of morality, because your entire viewpoint is based on faith. I personally don't give a fuck what a person who bases all their beliefs on faith has to say about anything. And I have provided you with evidence, but as you said "I don't believe the evidence." and you aren't going to, because you are determined to have faith. You find comfort in it, it's quite childish and ignorant to me, but that's who you are and you can't change it.I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire0 -
Ahnimus wrote:They appear random. But many things appear random with limited knowledge, such as the coin-toss. I apologize for not being 2-dimensional.
They also are named "random" by the same scientists you claim to be deterministics. In fact every principle in genetics is based on chance and random occurances. It's a basic principle, the first thing you learn when you study genetics. The origin of life also, the construction of the first dna molecule is believed to be an incredibly lucky strike. Can't be explained otherwise (right now). The links you keep on providing only state interpretations and predictions, no facts. If randomness is at the origin of the diversity of life then I fail to see the determinisim behind our presence. And I'll keep my free will.
Apologies accepted, though I didn't understand that part, sorry!0 -
somebodyelse'ssky wrote:this is a paid advertisement / not sponsored by nor do it's views represent this network in any way all claims are the responsibility of the advertiser.
WAS JESUS GAY ? WHAT DOES JESUS REALLY THINK ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY ? FIND OUT EVERYTHING YOU ALWAYS WANTED TO ASK JESUS IN THIS SPECIAL EDITION 7,000 PAGE GUIDE TO UNDERSTANDING RELIGION. ORDER NOW AND WE'LL THROW IN THE WORLD RENOWNED, "WILL I GET INTO HEAVEN AND WHAT I NEED TO KNOW WHEN I ARRIVE" ABSOLUTELY FREE ? INCLUDES EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT GETTING IN TO HEAVEN AND WILL LET YOU KNOW IN ADVANCE WHETHER OR NOT YOUR IN OR NOT. A MUST HAVE FOR EVERY COLLECTION. ALL THIS IS YOURS FOR TWO LOW PAYMENTS OF 19.99 PLUS SHIPPING AND HANDLING.
LMAO!!!!
Phew!!! I really needed to go to the loo and get a cuppa!! Thanks for that!
I appreciate you making it louder too! Helped stir me from where my head had fallen forward onto the keyboard!!!
Let me just wipe up this drool!!!
Now, where's my credit card? You got a 1800 number for me? NOPE!!!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift0 -
Kann wrote:They also are named "random" by the same scientists you claim to be deterministics. In fact every principle in genetics is based on chance and random occurances. It's a basic principle, the first thing you learn when you study genetics. The origin of life also, the construction of the first dna molecule is believed to be an incredibly lucky strike. Can't be explained otherwise (right now). The links you keep on providing only state interpretations and predictions, no facts. If randomness is at the origin of the diversity of life then I fail to see the determinisim behind our presence. And I'll keep my free will.
Apologies accepted, though I didn't understand that part, sorry!
If you read up on randomness, you find out what random really means, it doesn't mean that things are indeterminant. For decades mathmaticians have tried to come up with something truly random and found it to be impossible. The closes anyone has come is Rule 30 automaton and it's far from being indeterminant. All "random" means is that from our macro perspective we cannot predict the outcome. A coin-toss is not indeterminant, but it is random. Quantum mechanics is random but not indeterminant. Quantum mechanics is just like the coin-toss example. Inertia alone explains the determinancy of any thing. A coin spinning cannot gain momentum by it's self, it loses momentum through inertia causing it to eventually stop at heads or tails, quantum particles do the same thing. They call it quantum indeterminacy because we can't predict which side the coin is going to land on. You've taken a poor social understanding of scientific terms and misrepresented phsyics.I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire0
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