i'm sorry but that's the way it is. at least for the bible that's the way it is, i mean, deny it all you want. but see in the garden of eden when man sinned we gave our powers to the devil. so the devil had taken control of our minds and ultimately our lives. God couldn't take it back because there had to be a ransom. again the wages of sin is death. we had to die. that's the way it was going to be. because that is the nature of sin, it vanishes. it is destined to nonexistence. God couldn't absolve sin and make it disappear because our minds didn't allow him to. so it was important that a man had to accomplish a perfect life to bring man back to it's primary purpose. the deaht of Christ is very important in a christian life because it was the only way to rescue us from death. Yes God would've been able to take sin. Like in the case when God banished adam and eve from the garden he said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. HE MUST NOT BE ALLOWED TO REACH OUT HIS HAND AND TAKE ALSO FROM THE TREE OF LIFE AND EAT, AND LIVE FOREVER."23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden..." which means that if he would've stayed there he would've lived forever but would not have access to God's glory. in the same way if God were to absolve our sins right here and now, which he can, we still wouldn't receive God's purpose for us to share in his glory. This would mean that we would live forever but would still be held captives to the devil.
this is a circular theological argument... you're attempting to use biblical tradition to prove the tradition is right.
now here you are misunderstanding me. first of all, believing in Christ accomplishes your act of worship. now secondly and most importantly i was making reference to humanity's misunderstnading of the scriptures. but i've explained this so many times and yet no one has been able to explain how God's love is conditional. it's like your saying God's love is conditional because it is.
God loves us undoubtedly because we are his creation. So in that case he has prepared so many means for us to defeat death, becuase death is an unatural course that we have taken.
we have explained endlessly how god's love is conditional. you have been unable to rebut that assertion. even going back to original sin, god's love was conditioned. he could have forgiven and forgotten, or simply stripped them of whatever it was they are. he could have banished the devil. he could ahve done any number of things. but he did not. instead, he made his providence dependent upon abject obedience to his whims. that is conditional. everything about christianity is conditional. if his love was unconditional, there would be no need for hell. if his was unconditional, you could get to heaven on your actions and contact with god... you wouldn't have to run through the bureacratic red tape he set up with the bible and jesus to weed out people.
not at all, becos if god loves you so much, why is he so unwilling to pull some strings to get you out? and what if you're not sinning... what if your only sin is you were born in a pigmy tribe and worship nature, or born in rural india where all you know is hinduism, or are born in iraq and learn aboubout allah? you're not rejecting god in any of those instances... you're embracing him in a different manner. again, why is jesus a condition? god is all-powerful and almighty, surely he can get you into heaven without jesus if your life is not sinful. if the only sin you commit is that you were born in a culture where you were unaware of jesus or don't understand what he supposedly represents, that's too much for god to forgive? why? otherwise it's like going to hell on a technicality.
touché
The Sentence Below Is True
The Sentence Above Is False
i dont see how the two are separable. if you love them unconditionally, why would you deny them entry into your paradise? if you give me the sin nonsense, we've already covered how god could easily do away with any such requirement of his own volition, or forgive the sins. if you say becos we rejected him, we're again getting back to conditions on his love... only if you love him first.
no, we did not cover how god could do away with sin of his own volition. you did, maybe, but i didn't really agree with you on that part. sin is something that is there and will remain there because we allow it to remain. so in the case of God doing away with sin, technically, he already has at the cross. but it is us who remain in it. so no this doesn't quite clear up the idea that his love is conditional. i really don't know why you are so caught up with the idea that God hates us. that is a vain argument and doesn't avail anything
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
no, we did not cover how god could do away with sin of his own volition. you did, maybe, but i didn't really agree with you on that part. sin is something that is there and will remain there because we allow it to remain. so in the case of God doing away with sin, technically, he already has at the cross. but it is us who remain in it. so no this doesn't quite clear up the idea that his love is conditional. i really don't know why you are so caught up with the idea that God hates us. that is a vain argument and doesn't avail anything
i don't think he hates us, i think your god is very arbitrary and petty. i discussed how anything is possible for god, including absolving people of their sins without having to do the whole jesus magic thing. if god wanted to forgive sins, it could just be done. otherwise, you're placing arbitrary limits on god. perhaps we remain in it, but he has the power to remove it from us after we die. and he has the power to do that independent of jesus. thus, making jesus some arbitrary gatekeeper/hoop to jump through to have your sins forgiven is on its face placing conditions on god's love for us. he only loves us unconditionally if we jump through the jesus hoop. otherwise, maybe he loves us, but a little bit less than the jesus people, becos he lets them into heaven but refuses to absolve us of our sins just becos we didn't adhere to the red tape and file our jesus paperwork for absolution.
we have explained endlessly how god's love is conditional. you have been unable to rebut that assertion. even going back to original sin, god's love was conditioned. he could have forgiven and forgotten, or simply stripped them of whatever it was they are. he could have banished the devil. he could ahve done any number of things. but he did not. instead, he made his providence dependent upon abject obedience to his whims. that is conditional. everything about christianity is conditional. if his love was unconditional, there would be no need for hell. if his was unconditional, you could get to heaven on your actions and contact with god... you wouldn't have to run through the bureacratic red tape he set up with the bible and jesus to weed out people.
well if you have endlessly explained how god's love is conditional i too have endlessly explained why it's not. you're only basing your argument because of hell. but as i've said before sin is the opposite of life... when we speak of hell we speak of the second death. if sin is the opposite of life that what happens to those who reap corruptible acts, it vanishes, it dies, it goes to hell. if God were to change this it would be unfair. what of the bad that has happened in life?? where is justice? for many of us hell sounds like a bad place when it's actually a good place. it is a form of justice. it is God's wrath against the unjustices caused in our lives. put however you want to put it this is really what it means. it's not an argument. it's a story. a story that the bible speaks of. a story which i believe. if i have gone back and forth even going back to original sin it is important to do so when we are speaking of this topic. and i have more than effectively rebutted the assertion, you're just not following. of course he could have stripped them of whatever it was they were but humanity chose not to follow that route. they went on doing the very same thing of living in sin again. of course he could've banished the devil and he already did at the cross. so it is important for hell to be there, so there could be justice against sin. and he certainly can forgive and forget but how is that possible if we don't believe? he will not do that if we are not accepting and convicted that we have sinned.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
Good answer, also, religions have a tendency to derogate anyone who does not share their beliefs. HOmosexuals, on the other hand, are more likely to be happy to live and let live.
just thankful to not be stoned by hateful people and strung up on a fence somewhere.
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using biblical tradition to prove the tradition is right? i'm not following...
you're saying the biblical account of god is accurate becos it's in the bible. that's circular. you say "i know this is god's nature becos that's how he is in the bible, and we know the bible is an accurate description of god becos the bible says so." you're saying we should believe in the bible, becos if we believe in the bible then we will see that the bible is right about god. that's like saying you should like pearl jam, becos if you like pearl jam then you will realize how good they are. it's not a freestanding argument, it only prevails if you already subscribe to the premise that the bible is true.
it just seems to me like you're placing a lot of limits on what god can and cannot do. my god has no limits or boundaries.
you're saying the biblical account of god is accurate becos it's in the bible. that's circular. you say "i know this is god's nature becos that's how he is in the bible, and we know the bible is an accurate description of god becos the bible says so." you're saying we should believe in the bible, becos if we believe in the bible then we will see that the bible is right about god. that's like saying you should like pearl jam, becos if you like pearl jam then you will realize how good they are. it's not a freestanding argument, it only prevails if you already subscribe to the premise that the bible is true.
it just seems to me like you're placing a lot of limits on what god can and cannot do. my god has no limits or boundaries.
what the hell??? i think you're mistaking me for someone else. i'm not forcing you to believe in this... where'd you come up with that? what i was saying in regards to the post you replied on was that that is what the bible says. okay fine it's a mythical book filled with a bunch of errors but a error at that it is what it is.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
well if you have endlessly explained how god's love is conditional i too have endlessly explained why it's not. you're only basing your argument because of hell. but as i've said before sin is the opposite of life... when we speak of hell we speak of the second death. if sin is the opposite of life that what happens to those who reap corruptible acts, it vanishes, it dies, it goes to hell. if God were to change this it would be unfair. what of the bad that has happened in life?? where is justice? for many of us hell sounds like a bad place when it's actually a good place. it is a form of justice. it is God's wrath against the unjustices caused in our lives. put however you want to put it this is really what it means. it's not an argument. it's a story. a story that the bible speaks of. a story which i believe. if i have gone back and forth even going back to original sin it is important to do so when we are speaking of this topic. and i have more than effectively rebutted the assertion, you're just not following. of course he could have stripped them of whatever it was they were but humanity chose not to follow that route. they went on doing the very same thing of living in sin again. of course he could've banished the devil and he already did at the cross. so it is important for hell to be there, so there could be justice against sin. and he certainly can forgive and forget but how is that possible if we don't believe? he will not do that if we are not accepting and convicted that we have sinned.
this is my entire point though. how is it justice to condemn and punish a man like ghandi, or a pygmy who never heard the name jesus, for all of eternity simply becos their only sin was not knowing jesus in the way christian thought demands? there's no justice in that. where is the justice in granting a murderer access to heaven becos he thought he was murdering in the name of jesus and honestly asks forgiveness through jesus? why does god need this magic gate of jesus to forgive sin? that, to me, is not a just god. it is a petty god that would deny an honest and righteous human who loves god and his neighbor, but doesn't know he has to file his jesus papers to get to heaven and so he is condemned to hell for all eternity? how is that just? jesus will get you a free past no matter what works you did, and no amount of good works or blameless living will get you into heaven if you don't know enough to bow down and worship and beg jesus to forgive you for it.
i don't think he hates us, i think your god is very arbitrary and petty.
I respect your opinion.
i discussed how anything is possible for god, including absolving people of their sins without having to do the whole jesus magic thing.
and i explained how i agreed with you on that but that's not gonna happen because of our unbelief.
if god wanted to forgive sins, it could just be done. otherwise, you're placing arbitrary limits on god. perhaps we remain in it, but he has the power to remove it from us after we die. and he has the power to do that independent of jesus. thus, making jesus some arbitrary gatekeeper/hoop to jump through to have your sins forgiven is on its face placing conditions on god's love for us. he only loves us unconditionally if we jump through the jesus hoop. otherwise, maybe he loves us, but a little bit less than the jesus people, becos he lets them into heaven but refuses to absolve us of our sins just becos we didn't adhere to the red tape and file our jesus paperwork for absolution.
again... i explained this. the devil had taken our rights away to live as eternal beings. because of the lie that we believed in. we gave our rights away to him as it says, 14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
flesh and blood are all vainly things. since we shared in that when we took of the tree of knowledge of good and evil we inherited a corruptible and vain life. because the devil had this power God had to take it back and it had to be done through the death of innocent blood. why? because that's what was due to sin. so you say God is powerful and could've gained this back by his miraculous power. he could've destroyed the devil and would've made it all better. in other words just start the whole process all over. or just rid us of our sins... and just get rid of the devil completely. i mean, it sounds good to me but that's not how it goes. it sounds like you want to invent an entire knew God or something... i don't know. the thing is if that is so then that would make God sound more like an obsessive God and more dictating. just think about it. it's like a God that's like saying, " you're going to believe in me whether you like it or not. i'm going to get rid of the devil and there will be no more of this. all of you will learn to love me and learn that I am what you really need." instead of showing us willingly who he really is. i don't know.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
this is my entire point though. how is it justice to condemn and punish a man like ghandi, or a pygmy who never heard the name jesus, for all of eternity simply becos their only sin was not knowing jesus in the way christian thought demands? there's no justice in that. where is the justice in granting a murderer access to heaven becos he thought he was murdering in the name of jesus and honestly asks forgiveness through jesus? why does god need this magic gate of jesus to forgive sin? that, to me, is not a just god. it is a petty god that would deny an honest and righteous human who loves god and his neighbor, but doesn't know he has to file his jesus papers to get to heaven and so he is condemned to hell for all eternity? how is that just? jesus will get you a free past no matter what works you did, and no amount of good works or blameless living will get you into heaven if you don't know enough to bow down and worship and beg jesus to forgive you for it.
yes i udnerstand you completely.... but sorry that's just the way the bible says it is. the only way out is through Jesus Christ. but in the case of the murderer who believe he was murdering in the name of jesus, well, i guess he's going to hell for sure... i would certainly send him there.... j/k now in the case of someone who murdered for other reasons... now i don't know about that. cause that's a pretty touchy subject. have you seen documentaries on people on deathrow who were truly sorry for what they had committed? now if you are a vengeful person you would say that the man deserves to die. ok but what if you don't believe in the deathrow... well what if the murderer kills a close and loving relative of yours?? can you honestly committ to yourself that he shouldn't be sentenced to death? forgiveness would seem so far away at this point. these are extreme situations... my economics professor once would attend executions here in texas. he said it was the most vile experience he had ever been through. not only was the face of the convict so depricating but also the look on the victim's families. he said that while the person was being executed the victims families had these hideous looks with violent grims and grinding their teeth. they were saying i hope you burn in hell. or you disgust me. they looked completely blinded by hatred and vengeance. he said he wishes he'd never been through that experience. in situations like these it is only between God and the murderer. for even if the murderer deserves to go to hell if i were to see the look on those peoples faces i wouldn't doubt one second that they are slowly pacing their way to that same route.
so what of the murderer who accepts jesus??? if he truly finds repentance in his heart then certainly God's mercies would extend to such great lengths. what if Ghandi didn't accept Jesus although he were a good and honorable man? i'm sure his good deeds were recompensed to him in this life but good deeds don't get you into heaven. the truth is we have inherited the nature of sin, so it is part of our nature to sin. and if our nature is in the laws of sin then we are not partakers of the gifts of God. we need to die to sin and live for the spirit. that's just how the story goes... i guess. i'm sure you'll disagree albeit i'm sure there are billions who do.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
this is my entire point though. how is it justice to condemn and punish a man like ghandi, or a pygmy who never heard the name jesus, for all of eternity simply becos their only sin was not knowing jesus in the way christian thought demands? there's no justice in that. where is the justice in granting a murderer access to heaven becos he thought he was murdering in the name of jesus and honestly asks forgiveness through jesus? why does god need this magic gate of jesus to forgive sin? that, to me, is not a just god. it is a petty god that would deny an honest and righteous human who loves god and his neighbor, but doesn't know he has to file his jesus papers to get to heaven and so he is condemned to hell for all eternity? how is that just? jesus will get you a free past no matter what works you did, and no amount of good works or blameless living will get you into heaven if you don't know enough to bow down and worship and beg jesus to forgive you for it.
by the way soulsinging, i love you even though you are going to hell.... hahaha j/k
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
yes i udnerstand you completely.... but sorry that's just the way the bible says it is. the only way out is through Jesus Christ. but in the case of the murderer who believe he was murdering in the name of jesus, well, i guess he's going to hell for sure... i would certainly send him there.... j/k now in the case of someone who murdered for other reasons... now i don't know about that. cause that's a pretty touchy subject. have you seen documentaries on people on deathrow who were truly sorry for what they had committed? now if you are a vengeful person you would say that the man deserves to die. ok but what if you don't believe in the deathrow... well what if the murderer kills a close and loving relative of yours?? can you honestly committ to yourself that he shouldn't be sentenced to death? forgiveness would seem so far away at this point. these are extreme situations... my economics professor once would attend executions here in texas. he said it was the most vile experience he had ever been through. not only was the face of the convict so depricating but also the look on the victim's families. he said that while the person was being executed the victims families had these hideous looks with violent grims and grinding their teeth. they were saying i hope you burn in hell. or you disgust me. they looked completely blinded by hatred and vengeance. he said he wishes he'd never been through that experience. in situations like these it is only between God and the murderer. for even if the murderer deserves to go to hell if i were to see the look on those peoples faces i wouldn't doubt one second that they are slowly pacing their way to that same route.
so what of the murderer who accepts jesus??? if he truly finds repentance in his heart then certainly God's mercies would extend to such great lengths. what if Ghandi didn't accept Jesus although he were a good and honorable man? i'm sure his good deeds were recompensed to him in this life but good deeds don't get you into heaven. the truth is we have inherited the nature of sin, so it is part of our nature to sin. and if our nature is in the laws of sin then we are not partakers of the gifts of God. we need to die to sin and live for the spirit. that's just how the story goes... i guess. i'm sure you'll disagree albeit i'm sure there are billions who do.
and this is why i am not christian. i find such a belief system to be pretty twisted and i cannot conscionably accept a god who is so cruel. i dont believe in the devil of any of this magical hocus pocus. i dont believe in the fall. these are all post hoc rationalizations for why god cannot or does not do what he ought to be capable of. it sounds like a creative story invented for the sole purpose of countering the argument i've been making: god cannot be loving and send good people to hell just for picking the wrong religion. so they invent this great story about devils and falls and all sorts of great mythology to justify damning good people just becos they didn't pick jesus. i cannot agree with it. it is that very belief that is at the core of every corruption, distortion, and abuse of the message of christianity: the belief that our way is the only way and those who do not accept jesus are all damned sinners. some christians adopt a smug pity, others use it to wage war or propagate hatred. but the result is NEVER a good thing nore a value system i want any part of. the god i know is not so narrow-minded or limited. the god i know simply is, and does not dangle heaven as a carrot or damn good people becos they didnt jump through the proper hoops. i personally find that to be a pretty sick and arrogant worldview and cannot take part of it. and that is why i often speak out vocally and passionately whenever i perceive christianity to be engaging in this kind of judgmental behavior (eg. homos are sinners)... becos i see it as a very dangerous way of thinking.
and this is why i am not christian. i find such a belief system to be pretty twisted and i cannot conscionably accept a god who is so cruel. i dont believe in the devil of any of this magical hocus pocus. i dont believe in the fall. these are all post hoc rationalizations for why god cannot or does not do what he ought to be capable of. it sounds like a creative story invented for the sole purpose of countering the argument i've been making: god cannot be loving and send good people to hell just for picking the wrong religion. so they invent this great story about devils and falls and all sorts of great mythology to justify damning good people just becos they didn't pick jesus. i cannot agree with it. it is that very belief that is at the core of every corruption, distortion, and abuse of the message of christianity: the belief that our way is the only way and those who do not accept jesus are all damned sinners. some christians adopt a smug pity, others use it to wage war or propagate hatred. but the result is NEVER a good thing nore a value system i want any part of. the god i know is not so narrow-minded or limited. the god i know simply is, and does not dangle heaven as a carrot or damn good people becos they didnt jump through the proper hoops. i personally find that to be a pretty sick and arrogant worldview and cannot take part of it. and that is why i often speak out vocally and passionately whenever i perceive christianity to be engaging in this kind of judgmental behavior (eg. homos are sinners)... becos i see it as a very dangerous way of thinking.
ok sounds good...
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
what about if while translating the bible from its original language to whatever, thou shalt not kill became thou shalt not murder because the translator thought it meant the same thing?
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what about if while translating the bible from its original language to whatever, thou shalt not kill became thou shalt not murder because the translator thought it meant the same thing?
are you saying that it makes it okay to send people to the deathrow? but yes you're absolutely right... it meant to say thou shalt not murder but like most people who are for the death penalty they use this argument to their advantage. i don't believe in the death penatly. it's not healthy.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
are you saying that it makes it okay to send people to the deathrow? but yes you're absolutely right... it meant to say thou shalt not murder but like most people who are for the death penalty they use this argument to their advantage. i don't believe in the death penatly. it's not healthy.
i am a pacifist.
i do not agree with the illogic of state sanctioned murder. so in answer to your question, no i do not think it's okay to send people to death row.
hear my name
take a good look
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i admit that the odds of my beliefs being right are no better than anyone else's, but that does not mean i believe them any less fervently.
i understand that you can be just as fervent with your personal beliefs. i hope you're 100% convinced. if not, then there's a problem.
and the point of this was, that your religion IS asking too much when it asks to accept certain very strange ideas.
what strange ideas are you referring to?
when each spiritual system has pretty much equal odds of truth, why would i pick one of the weirdest ones possible without some very compelling reason. i was asking for that reason. the fact that you believe you're right is not a very compelling reason.
there are many compelling reasons to believe in Jesus, but if you're not willing to seek Him out the answers won't come.
I died. I died and you just stood there. I died and you watched. I died and you walked by and said no. I'm dead.
???? i don't get it. it's not love because the bible is open to interpretation? it's not the impression of a benevolent god because it's not specific?? i'm not understanding what you're saying. maybe we sort of deviated from the original conversation.
i'm mean really, all your doing is condradicting the scriptures and finding reasons why it wouldn't make sense to you. i mean it doens't make sense to me but if it makes sense for you then go ahead. i've explained to you how the God of the Bible does not set conditional standards of love. you're saying why you don't believe it but in all honesty you're not making any sense to me. but i'm sure it does for you so i'll respect that.
Fuck, this is infuriating, not you disagreeing with me but failing to understand: ITS NOT LOVE BECAUDE GOD THREATHENS TO CUT YOU OFF FOR ETERNITY IF YOU SIN, BECAUSE THE RPENTENCE OPITION HAS A TIME FRAME
~*~*~*~*PROUD EVENFLOW PSYCHO #0026~*~*~*~*
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and this still leaves of with the dilemma that if god is going to condemn me to hell becos i am a bit skeptical when it comes to basing my entire life on one out of thousands of ancient texts that purport to tell the truth about god, then i'd just as soon be in hell than be with such an unforgiving and petty creator.
well, looking it from your angle, if hell happens to be in fact a real place, and God does turn out to exist in the end, you'll be burning in a hotter hell than those poor people did in the wtc. i'm personally not willing to push God's book into the disney pile.
many grow up in society's where they have never even heard the name jesus. does god love these people less becos they "turned their backs on his suffering" by having the misfortune of being born in sub-saharan africa? are white europeans more important to god than native pygmies?
every person who is willing to accept God is His own:
Matthew 12:50
I died. I died and you just stood there. I died and you watched. I died and you walked by and said no. I'm dead.
Fuck, this is infuriating, not you disagreeing with me but failing to understand: ITS NOT LOVE BECAUDE GOD THREATHENS TO CUT YOU OFF FOR ETERNITY IF YOU SIN, BECAUSE THE RPENTENCE OPITION HAS A TIME FRAME
i already gave the explaination. you're not God's if you're following something else. you're THEIR child. what about THEIR love? blame them.
I died. I died and you just stood there. I died and you watched. I died and you walked by and said no. I'm dead.
so is the iliad. do you also believe zeus rules the world from atop mt. olympus? that achilles was also a god, just like jesus? that apollo helped sway the war for the greeks?
i'll stack my findings of the Bible up against any of them.
I died. I died and you just stood there. I died and you watched. I died and you walked by and said no. I'm dead.
so you dismiss zues and pals but you accept the jesusgod. how does that work?
cate, i was going to leave you alone, but i see you came back for more. i dismiss zues, etc., because they are not the ones who died for me. i personally have MY OWN PROOF of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. i'm not going to share EVERYTHING on this board, some people will only cheapen it. i think i have enough sense after reading 700 plus posts in this thread. it's ok to say, "f--- God," as was said, but treat the homosexual with the utmost care. i'm not giving what is holy to the dogs.
I died. I died and you just stood there. I died and you watched. I died and you walked by and said no. I'm dead.
Comments
this is a circular theological argument... you're attempting to use biblical tradition to prove the tradition is right.
we have explained endlessly how god's love is conditional. you have been unable to rebut that assertion. even going back to original sin, god's love was conditioned. he could have forgiven and forgotten, or simply stripped them of whatever it was they are. he could have banished the devil. he could ahve done any number of things. but he did not. instead, he made his providence dependent upon abject obedience to his whims. that is conditional. everything about christianity is conditional. if his love was unconditional, there would be no need for hell. if his was unconditional, you could get to heaven on your actions and contact with god... you wouldn't have to run through the bureacratic red tape he set up with the bible and jesus to weed out people.
touché
The Sentence Above Is False
i don't think he hates us, i think your god is very arbitrary and petty. i discussed how anything is possible for god, including absolving people of their sins without having to do the whole jesus magic thing. if god wanted to forgive sins, it could just be done. otherwise, you're placing arbitrary limits on god. perhaps we remain in it, but he has the power to remove it from us after we die. and he has the power to do that independent of jesus. thus, making jesus some arbitrary gatekeeper/hoop to jump through to have your sins forgiven is on its face placing conditions on god's love for us. he only loves us unconditionally if we jump through the jesus hoop. otherwise, maybe he loves us, but a little bit less than the jesus people, becos he lets them into heaven but refuses to absolve us of our sins just becos we didn't adhere to the red tape and file our jesus paperwork for absolution.
just thankful to not be stoned by hateful people and strung up on a fence somewhere.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
you're saying the biblical account of god is accurate becos it's in the bible. that's circular. you say "i know this is god's nature becos that's how he is in the bible, and we know the bible is an accurate description of god becos the bible says so." you're saying we should believe in the bible, becos if we believe in the bible then we will see that the bible is right about god. that's like saying you should like pearl jam, becos if you like pearl jam then you will realize how good they are. it's not a freestanding argument, it only prevails if you already subscribe to the premise that the bible is true.
it just seems to me like you're placing a lot of limits on what god can and cannot do. my god has no limits or boundaries.
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what the hell??? i think you're mistaking me for someone else. i'm not forcing you to believe in this... where'd you come up with that? what i was saying in regards to the post you replied on was that that is what the bible says. okay fine it's a mythical book filled with a bunch of errors but a error at that it is what it is.
this is my entire point though. how is it justice to condemn and punish a man like ghandi, or a pygmy who never heard the name jesus, for all of eternity simply becos their only sin was not knowing jesus in the way christian thought demands? there's no justice in that. where is the justice in granting a murderer access to heaven becos he thought he was murdering in the name of jesus and honestly asks forgiveness through jesus? why does god need this magic gate of jesus to forgive sin? that, to me, is not a just god. it is a petty god that would deny an honest and righteous human who loves god and his neighbor, but doesn't know he has to file his jesus papers to get to heaven and so he is condemned to hell for all eternity? how is that just? jesus will get you a free past no matter what works you did, and no amount of good works or blameless living will get you into heaven if you don't know enough to bow down and worship and beg jesus to forgive you for it.
flesh and blood are all vainly things. since we shared in that when we took of the tree of knowledge of good and evil we inherited a corruptible and vain life. because the devil had this power God had to take it back and it had to be done through the death of innocent blood. why? because that's what was due to sin. so you say God is powerful and could've gained this back by his miraculous power. he could've destroyed the devil and would've made it all better. in other words just start the whole process all over. or just rid us of our sins... and just get rid of the devil completely. i mean, it sounds good to me but that's not how it goes. it sounds like you want to invent an entire knew God or something... i don't know. the thing is if that is so then that would make God sound more like an obsessive God and more dictating. just think about it. it's like a God that's like saying, " you're going to believe in me whether you like it or not. i'm going to get rid of the devil and there will be no more of this. all of you will learn to love me and learn that I am what you really need." instead of showing us willingly who he really is. i don't know.
so what of the murderer who accepts jesus??? if he truly finds repentance in his heart then certainly God's mercies would extend to such great lengths. what if Ghandi didn't accept Jesus although he were a good and honorable man? i'm sure his good deeds were recompensed to him in this life but good deeds don't get you into heaven. the truth is we have inherited the nature of sin, so it is part of our nature to sin. and if our nature is in the laws of sin then we are not partakers of the gifts of God. we need to die to sin and live for the spirit. that's just how the story goes... i guess. i'm sure you'll disagree albeit i'm sure there are billions who do.
and this is why i am not christian. i find such a belief system to be pretty twisted and i cannot conscionably accept a god who is so cruel. i dont believe in the devil of any of this magical hocus pocus. i dont believe in the fall. these are all post hoc rationalizations for why god cannot or does not do what he ought to be capable of. it sounds like a creative story invented for the sole purpose of countering the argument i've been making: god cannot be loving and send good people to hell just for picking the wrong religion. so they invent this great story about devils and falls and all sorts of great mythology to justify damning good people just becos they didn't pick jesus. i cannot agree with it. it is that very belief that is at the core of every corruption, distortion, and abuse of the message of christianity: the belief that our way is the only way and those who do not accept jesus are all damned sinners. some christians adopt a smug pity, others use it to wage war or propagate hatred. but the result is NEVER a good thing nore a value system i want any part of. the god i know is not so narrow-minded or limited. the god i know simply is, and does not dangle heaven as a carrot or damn good people becos they didnt jump through the proper hoops. i personally find that to be a pretty sick and arrogant worldview and cannot take part of it. and that is why i often speak out vocally and passionately whenever i perceive christianity to be engaging in this kind of judgmental behavior (eg. homos are sinners)... becos i see it as a very dangerous way of thinking.
take a good look
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i am a pacifist.
i do not agree with the illogic of state sanctioned murder. so in answer to your question, no i do not think it's okay to send people to death row.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
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your reason is not God's reason, mr. ahnimus.
God exists because it's obvious that the universe can't create itself.
i understand that you can be just as fervent with your personal beliefs. i hope you're 100% convinced. if not, then there's a problem.
what strange ideas are you referring to?
there are many compelling reasons to believe in Jesus, but if you're not willing to seek Him out the answers won't come.
ITS NOT LOVE BECAUDE GOD THREATHENS TO CUT YOU OFF FOR ETERNITY IF YOU SIN, BECAUSE THE RPENTENCE OPITION HAS A TIME FRAME
*^*^*^*^*^*^*^RED MOSQUITO #2^*^*^*^*^*^*^*
Dublin 08/06
Katowice 06/07 London 06/07 Dusseldorf 06/07 Nijgemen 06/07
well, looking it from your angle, if hell happens to be in fact a real place, and God does turn out to exist in the end, you'll be burning in a hotter hell than those poor people did in the wtc. i'm personally not willing to push God's book into the disney pile.
every person who is willing to accept God is His own:
Matthew 12:50
i already gave the explaination. you're not God's if you're following something else. you're THEIR child. what about THEIR love? blame them.
i'll stack my findings of the Bible up against any of them.
so you dismiss zues and pals but you accept the jesusgod. how does that work?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
my other words make sense too. they make perfect sense to me.
we are ALL born into sin. ALL OF US. Jesus is the only one who can make us God's child again. you could've saved that edit.
cate, i was going to leave you alone, but i see you came back for more. i dismiss zues, etc., because they are not the ones who died for me. i personally have MY OWN PROOF of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. i'm not going to share EVERYTHING on this board, some people will only cheapen it. i think i have enough sense after reading 700 plus posts in this thread. it's ok to say, "f--- God," as was said, but treat the homosexual with the utmost care. i'm not giving what is holy to the dogs.