Interesting thought I had.

Ahnimus

onelongsong wrote:

changing horses again? first you say there isn't a God; now you say there's billions. there's one God with many different names.

There are billions of people in the world with different percepts of what God is, hence there are billions of different Gods, but you must be referring to your God, which is different than Jlew24asu's God, and if I ask Jlew24asu which God is the only God, he will say the same thing you've said "There is only one God" which inevitably is your individual, personalized, concept of God.

PJammin'

scw156 wrote:

actually, please point me to where you discussed your background... I looked through this thread and can't seem to find it. Although this thread has ballooned to many pages by now I may have overlooked it.

post #381

you are avoiding the point I was making... you say the Bible is the way it is for a reason... and you seem to agree HUMANS wrote it(who are flawed) but you also say you believe God is perfect and the Bible is his EXACT words... is it me or doesn't that make sense? If I gather all that you said, you're saying God is perfect... let humans write his EXACT words (which we know becomes imperfect then because humans have flaws) so essentially the Bible is flawed but God wanted it that way because the Bible is the way it is for a reason... soooo then, God intentionally wanted his EXACT words to be portrayed incorrectly...(so essentially you are saying in a round about way they aren't his exact words??!?) I look forward to you trying to explain all this to me but I suspect it will be more verses from the Bible or more "It is His way and I... blah blah)

i'm not avoiding any point you're making, mr. scw156. firstly, you say rightly that i believe God is perfect. His words are pure words, like silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. the men who wrote the Bible were entrusted with the word of God by HIM. God deemed these people's hearts worthy of coming to them. look at the prophets and the word they were given, the prophecies that were fulfilled. the bible was written over a span of 1500 years and the harmony of the books testifies to it's supernatural origin. paul had a meeting with Jesus on his way to damascus to persecute the followers of Christ. God deemed him worthy of spreading His word to the gentiles. furthermore, you came to the conclusion that the Bible is flawed, but it is not. God's word is just as it should be in the Bible. the Bible is a historical document, reporting events that actually happened in space and time. archaeology can and has provided information which supports the trustworthiness of the Bible as a true historical document. the words written down are written down as they should be. just like God gave exact specifications for the building of the ark of the covenant. Your mind can't even fathom His perfection, so don't be a fool and try to disprove His ways.

scw156

PJammin' wrote:

post #381




i'm not avoiding any point you're making, mr. scw156. firstly, you say rightly that i believe God is perfect. His words are pure words, like silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. the men who wrote the Bible were entrusted with the word of God by HIM. God deemed these people's hearts worthy of coming to them. look at the prophets and the word they were given, the prophecies that were fulfilled. the bible was written over a span of 1500 years and the harmony of the books testifies to it's supernatural origin. paul had a meeting with Jesus on his way to damascus to persecute the followers of Christ. God deemed him worthy of spreading His word to the gentiles. furthermore, you came to the conclusion that the Bible is flawed, but it is not. God's word is just as it should be in the Bible. the Bible is a historical document, reporting events that actually happened in space and time. archaeology can and has provided information which supports the trustworthiness of the Bible as a true historical document. the words written down are written down as they should be. just like God gave exact specifications for the building of the ark of the covenant. Your mind can't even fathom His perfection, so don't be a fool and try to disprove His ways.

what timing, I happen to roll up to the computer just minutes after you post.
Alas, it is late where I'm at so a better reply will have to wait until morning unless I can't sleep tonight.



goodnight

edit: one quick thing though... i dislike people, you being one of them, who say things like "your mind can't even fathom".. so you're so much better than me? I'm mentally challenged in a way since I don't "believe" or think like you? So obviously since you believe the Bible and His word, that YOUR brain is advanced enough to fathom? I don't think God likes people who are high and mighty. of course you will say you aren't... but you spoke the words... and thats exactly how it sounded to me. SO if I just up and decide to hang on to the Bibles every word tonight, them magically I can "fathom" something. Arrogance.

It comes off to me as disrespectful and arrogant. You say people are going to hell... (God says it and YOU believe it, therefore you THINK that, so yes, you are saying people will go to hell), you also say people can't "fathom" or people can't understand something like its above us because we dont share the same opinion/belief as you... and you follow the word of God? I'm sure it says somewhere in the bible about accepting people etc...

I may not "believe" in God and what have you but I have never said to you or anyone here that I think you're going to a bad place or imply you're doomed or act in a way that makes me sound like i think your understanding is inferior. I'm not "bent out of shape" that you think I'll go to hell... because I dont believe in hell... i get "bent out of shape" because no matter what I believe, you MEAN it in a negative way and hide behind bible talk and God. I've said to you i believe differently or not at all, I've questioned how/why you believe like you do, I've never implied that "bad" things will happen to you or implied my mind and therefore belief system in superior.


I might as well reply to you post while i'm at it. I come from a Catholic background too, probably similar to your background... but thats all post 381 says about your background, no wonder i missed it. You don't like the way the church rolls so you followed the path you think is correct. Good. I still think you blindly hang on every word a book says and continue to vomit its verses out like you're a robot. Its like you have no personality, no feelings of your own... its all God this, God that. I have a feeling if there was typo or something in the Bible that said "Tacos, $1.99 on Friday!" you would randomly spout things about Tacos being cheap on Fridays in debates just because its in the Bible.


BWAH

somebodyelsessky2020

easier to find the weapons of mass destruction in iraq..than to ever finish this argument.

catefrances

somebodyelse'ssky wrote:

easier to find the weapons of mass destruction in iraq..than to ever finish this argument.

or even that the two sides will acknowledge the other has a viable opinion.

PJammin'

Ahnimus wrote:

Ben Libet was a neuroscientists that performed experiments on conscious awareness and decision making. His experiments showed that consicousness has no part in the will of a human being, but he still believed that consciousness provided free-won't. Unfortunately for Libet that argument doesn't hold any water under scrutiny.

Never-the-less Libet disproved free-will and proved that consciousness has no part in decision making, consciousness is only an awareness of prior events.

Actually if you look up free-will on wikipedia it gives all the arguments from both sides and it becomes obviosuly apparent that free-will does not exist. You can, if you are as interested as I am, go a lot deeper into physics, neuroscience and philosophy and validate this lack of free-will even further.

Ben Libet could've performed experiments until he didn't know anymore whether he was concious or unconcious, it doesn't matter to ME. you can spew out all of your scientific methods, but it's very simple to me.

free-will: free and independent choice; voluntary decision.

to believe in God or not to believe in God? it's MY voluntary decision to believe in God. that's all i really need to know.

have fun going back and forth with the others.

Rats of Multa

somebodyelse'ssky wrote:

easier to find the weapons of mass destruction in iraq..than to ever finish this argument.

at least we can leave this argument

somebodyelsessky2020

it's all really so plain and simple if you sit back... think about the world and how balanced and interconnected it is with everything from the smallest microbe to the largest beast. how every living thing has a purpose for being and the means to survive the answer is so simple. does anyone really think this is just coincidence? so many billions and billions of living things just happen to align themselves in a perfectly running systematic order? of course there has to be a higher being that created all this. does he, she or it go by the title god? that much i don't know and nobody else on this earth knows the answer to this for certain. so religious arguments are really a long never ending story.

Ahnimus

somebodyelse'ssky wrote:

it's all really so plain and simple if you sit back... think about the world and how balanced and interconnected it is with everything from the smallest microbe to the largest beast. how every living thing has a purpose for being and the means to survive the answer is so simple. does anyone really think this is just coincidence? so many billions and billions of living things just happen to align themselves in a perfectly running systematic order? of course there has to be a higher being that created all this. does he, she or it go by the title god? that much i don't know and nobody else on this earth knows the answer to this for certain. so religious arguments are really a long never ending story.

Didn't we already talk about the turtle problem?

soulsinging

PJammin' wrote:

i'm not avoiding any point you're making, mr. scw156. firstly, you say rightly that i believe God is perfect. His words are pure words, like silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. the men who wrote the Bible were entrusted with the word of God by HIM. God deemed these people's hearts worthy of coming to them. look at the prophets and the word they were given, the prophecies that were fulfilled. the bible was written over a span of 1500 years and the harmony of the books testifies to it's supernatural origin. paul had a meeting with Jesus on his way to damascus to persecute the followers of Christ. God deemed him worthy of spreading His word to the gentiles. furthermore, you came to the conclusion that the Bible is flawed, but it is not. God's word is just as it should be in the Bible. the Bible is a historical document, reporting events that actually happened in space and time. archaeology can and has provided information which supports the trustworthiness of the Bible as a true historical document. the words written down are written down as they should be. just like God gave exact specifications for the building of the ark of the covenant. Your mind can't even fathom His perfection, so don't be a fool and try to disprove His ways.

you're pentecostal aren't you? or maybe southern baptist?

Scubascott

somebodyelse'ssky wrote:

it's all really so plain and simple if you sit back... think about the world and how balanced and interconnected it is with everything from the smallest microbe to the largest beast. how every living thing has a purpose for being and the means to survive the answer is so simple. does anyone really think this is just coincidence? so many billions and billions of living things just happen to align themselves in a perfectly running systematic order? of course there has to be a higher being that created all this. does he, she or it go by the title god? that much i don't know and nobody else on this earth knows the answer to this for certain. so religious arguments are really a long never ending story.

What perfectly running systematic order? Ecosystems aren't beautiful perfect harmonic systems where everything has a place and everything runs smoothly. They're battle grounds, with every living thing struggling to survive and pass on its genes to the next generation. They're places of constant change. There are no assigned places for living things, no roles designed specially for them. They just exist and adapt to exploit whatever niche they can. Have you ever actually sat and looked at any kind of ecosystem in action? Even the lawn in your back yard will be full of millions of organisms locked in deadly conflict with each other. It is wonderful to behold, certainly, but I see no reason whatsoever to assume its complexity is evidence of a creator. There is certainly little perfection or harmony to found if you actually look closely.

somebodyelsessky2020

Ahnimus wrote:

Didn't we already talk about the turtle problem?

THE TURTLE PROBLEM?

Ahnimus

The original hebrew texts read Yam Suph, translated to english is "Sea of Reeds" . Some how this became "Red Sea" in the King James version. Never-the-less archaelogists found a 4 spoke chariot wheel deep within the red sea. One has to wonder were the old texts wrong? Or is it possible that a chariot wheel made it's way from Yam Suph - marshy area just north - to the red sea. Chariots will get bogged down in marshy terrain, so perhaps "The sea opened up" is simply metaphorical, and when they say it swallowed the chariots, they simply got bogged down. Then it's not really all that miraculous is it? The way I see it either the old texts were wrong, or there was no miracle, either way it's hardly evidence of God. One way you have a flawed word of God, the other way there is no miracle. But if you are saying that the hebrew texts and english texts are all the perfect word of God, well that just can't be true.

Ahnimus

somebodyelse'ssky wrote:

THE TURTLE PROBLEM?

Yea, apparently it's an old hindu thing. They thought the earth rested on the back of an elephant, and the elephant on the back of a turtle. They had to explain what the turtle stood on, so they said it's turtles all the way down, eventually the idea of a super turtle came up. That's what happens if you go chasing down causality, you get infinity, which is hard to comprehend, so we think of a super turtle. You are never going to know. You can only guess. It's unattainable knowledge. We are insignificant. We can only operate within our limits, they are expanding, but we aren't likely to ever discover a first cause. It's still a good idea to think in terms of causality, because it's pretty apparent things work that way. But I'm saying as far as significance or purpose goes, I doubt there is anything, it's all a guess. People believe that stuff because it gives them comfort, because reality is quite counter-intuitive and uncomfortable. That's why there are 6,000 religions in the world.

PJammin'

scw156 wrote:

edit: one quick thing though... i dislike people, you being one of them, who say things like "your mind can't even fathom".. so you're so much better than me? I'm mentally challenged in a way since I don't "believe" or think like you? So obviously since you believe the Bible and His word, that YOUR brain is advanced enough to fathom? I don't think God likes people who are high and mighty. of course you will say you aren't... but you spoke the words... and thats exactly how it sounded to me. SO if I just up and decide to hang on to the Bibles every word tonight, them magically I can "fathom" something. Arrogance.

you can dislike me. i still like you. by saying, "your mind can't even fathom," i'm not excluding myself from that statement. i personally can't fathom the mind of God either. once again, you're assuming and putting words in my mouth. i NEVER claimed to be better than anyone. i'm not high and mighty, but you can think of me that way if you want to. i'm not offended.

It comes off to me as disrespectful and arrogant. You say people are going to hell... (God says it and YOU believe it, therefore you THINK that, so yes, you are saying people will go to hell), you also say people can't "fathom" or people can't understand something like its above us because we dont share the same opinion/belief as you... and you follow the word of God? I'm sure it says somewhere in the bible about accepting people etc...

for once you speak some kind of truth. God says it and i DO believe it. He DOES say some people will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. is that MY fault? i don't wish harm on ANYONE, and i wish EVERYONE could be in heaven, but it's not my choice in what people decide to believe. i'm not one of those radicals who tries to change someone's beliefs by force. if you don't believe in any of it, what's it matter what "I" believe. go about your life and don't get so bent out of shape. i accept people just fine. going back to the first post in this thread, i treat someone who is homosexual just like the way i would want to be treated. does that mean i agree with the lifestyle? no. they live their life and i live mine. we can still be peaceful with one another.

I may not "believe" in God and what have you but I have never said to you or anyone here that I think you're going to a bad place or imply you're doomed or act in a way that makes me sound like i think your understanding is inferior. I'm not "bent out of shape" that you think I'll go to hell... because I dont believe in hell... i get "bent out of shape" because no matter what I believe, you MEAN it in a negative way and hide behind bible talk and God. I've said to you i believe differently or not at all, I've questioned how/why you believe like you do, I've never implied that "bad" things will happen to you or implied my mind and therefore belief system in superior.

i never said to anyone that they are going to a bad place either because i'm not the final judge on their life; but if you keep disobeying God's word, yes, people WILL go to a bad place. that's what "I" believe. if in any way you feel your understanding is inferior, that's your own fault. i don't see mr. ahnimus feeling inferior about his beliefs. take a page out of his book. listen, i don't hide behind Bible talk. it's not some book to me, it's God's Word and i'll defend it to the end. dislike me all you want. i expect to get attacked by certain people. it doesn't change the fact that i like you and i wouldn't want anything bad to happen to you.

I might as well reply to you post while i'm at it. I come from a Catholic background too, probably similar to your background... but thats all post 381 says about your background, no wonder i missed it. You don't like the way the church rolls so you followed the path you think is correct. Good. I still think you blindly hang on every word a book says and continue to vomit its verses out like you're a robot. Its like you have no personality, no feelings of your own... its all God this, God that. I have a feeling if there was typo or something in the Bible that said "Tacos, $1.99 on Friday!" you would randomly spout things about Tacos being cheap on Fridays in debates just because its in the Bible.

i don't follow a path i think is correct. i follow a path i know in my heart is correct. i'll continue to follow the Bible and "vomit" out verses because that's my truth. call me a robot, call me whatever you want. at least i feel content with being a robot for God. by the way, Jesus LOVES $1.99 tacos on any day.

PJammin'

soulsinging wrote:

you're pentecostal aren't you? or maybe southern baptist?

i'm not put in a box. i follow Christ.

Ahnimus

PJammin' wrote:

if you don't believe in any of it, what's it matter what "I" believe. go about your life and don't get so bent out of shape. i accept people just fine. going back to the first post in this thread, i treat someone who is homosexual just like the way i would want to be treated. does that mean i agree with the lifestyle? no. they live their life and i live mine. we can still be peaceful with one another.

The question is when you encounter a homosexual do you feel differently towards them? Does your religious belief cause you to distrust them or feel threatened by them? I personally live in a city with a large homosexual population. I'm quite comfortable with it, and actually that's more girls for me.

I think a lot of simple minded people take their religions too far.

i never said to anyone that they are going to a bad place either because i'm not the final judge on their life; but if you keep disobeying God's word, yes, people WILL go to a bad place. that's what "I" believe. if in any way you feel your understanding is inferior, that's your own fault. i don't see mr. ahnimus feeling inferior about his beliefs. take a page out of his book. listen, i don't hide behind Bible talk. it's not some book to me, it's God's Word and i'll defend it to the end. dislike me all you want. i expect to get attacked by certain people. it doesn't change the fact that i like you and i wouldn't want anything bad to happen to you.

i don't follow a path i think is correct. i follow a path i know in my heart is correct. i'll continue to follow the Bible and "vomit" out verses because that's my truth. call me a robot, call me whatever you want. at least i feel content with being a robot for God. by the way, Jesus LOVES $1.99 tacos on any day.

Right on! I think it's important to have strong arguments, put a lot of thought into it and express it firmly. On the other hand, things aren't always as they seem. I used to think reality was just an illusion. Then I realized than "I" am an illusion. I am just a brain and a body.

By the way the slang term is bot. Sounds cool when you say "S'up bot?" or "that bot's got super shiny metal".

PJammin'

Ahnimus wrote:

Chariots will get bogged down in marshy terrain, so perhaps "The sea opened up" is simply metaphorical, and when they say it swallowed the chariots, they simply got bogged down. Then it's not really all that miraculous is it?

i'd say it's miraculous:

but the children of isreal had walked on DRY land in the midst of the sea, and the waters were a WALL to them on their right hand and on their left.

and as far as getting bogged down:

then the waters returned and COVERED the chariots, the horsemen, and all the army of pharaoh that came into the sea after them. not so much as ONE of them remained.

PJammin'

Ahnimus wrote:

The question is when you encounter a homosexual do you feel differently towards them? Does your religious belief cause you to distrust them or feel threatened by them? I personally live in a city with a large homosexual population. I'm quite comfortable with it, and actually that's more girls for me.

i live in los angeles so i'm around homosexuals in different places. i get along with them just fine. in fact, some of them are the funniest and nicest people i've met. it also amuses me that they usually keep company with pretty women.

Right on! I think it's important to have strong arguments, put a lot of thought into it and express it firmly.

so then what's stopping you?

By the way the slang term is bot. Sounds cool when you say "S'up bot?" or "that bot's got super shiny metal".

i'm not hip to the slang of bots. i'm still trying to figure out the slang of hip hop.

Ahnimus

PJammin' wrote:

i'd say it's miraculous:

but the children of isreal had walked on DRY land in the midst of the sea, and the waters were a WALL to them on their right hand and on their left.

and as far as getting bogged down:

then the waters returned and COVERED the chariots, the horsemen, and all the army of pharaoh that came into the sea after them. not so much as ONE of them remained.

You basically just ignored everything I said and quoted scripture. Scripture that I just said was falsifiable.