logic vs feeling

soulsinging · December 2006

one of the few times a movie quote seemed appropriate to me. for you ahnimus:

"So if I asked you about art you could give me the skinny on every art book ever written...Michelangelo? You know a lot about him I bet. Life's work, criticisms, political aspirations. But you couldn't tell me what it smells like in the Sistine Chapel. You've never stood there and looked up at that beautiful ceiling. And if I asked you about women I'm sure you could give me a syllabus of your personal favorites, and maybe you've been laid a few times too. But you couldn't tell me how it feels to wake up next to a woman and be truly happy. If I asked you about war you could refer me to a bevy of fictional and non-fictional material, but you've never been in one. You've never held your best friend's head in your lap and watched him draw his last breath, looking to you for help. And if I asked you about love I'd get a sonnet, but you've never looked at a woman and been truly vulnerable. Known that someone could kill you with a look. That someone could rescue you from grief. That God had put an angel on Earth just for you. And you wouldn't know how it felt to be her angel. To have the love be there for her forever. Through anything, through cancer. You wouldn't know about sleeping sitting up in a hospital room for two months holding her hand and not leaving because the doctors could see in your eyes that the term "visiting hours" didn't apply to you. And you wouldn't know about real loss, because that only occurs when you lose something you love more than yourself, and you've never dared to love anything that much."

this is how your knowledge operates. you think you know becos you've read it. but there is a world of difference between knowing and understanding or feeling. and simply knowing how something might have come to feel the way it does does not mean you understand the feeling.

angelica · December 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

That's a fairly accurate description of every human being that's ever existed and ever will exist. Yourself included.

There are certain types of people who objectify others, and there are ones who are heightened in their subjective awareness and strive to understand individuals in their separate contexts. In my case, I'm consciously aware of my own blindspots and biases, and I'm fully welcoming when others bring new ones to my attention so that I can learn. Many people are this way. Many are not.

You are saying subjective experience cannot be understood and shutting yourself down to anything beyond that filter.

It can be somewhat understood, and yet in order to understand one has to TRY to understand. And one must get feedback on whether one is hearing correctly what the other person is saying. And then, one is only forming a mental map that helps them understand--a map that is NOT the same as the actual territory. I spend countless hours of my life heightening awareness of subjectivity. And also increasing my empathy. I'm the first person to say this is a highly valid endeavor. It cannot be done by objectifying others, however. And when we assume our objective "objectification" is a substitute for understanding, then we do our own selves a huge disservice by keeping our awareness shut down.

Ahnimus · December 2006

soulsinging wrote:

one of the few times a movie quote seemed appropriate to me. for you ahnimus:

"So if I asked you about art you could give me the skinny on every art book ever written...Michelangelo? You know a lot about him I bet. Life's work, criticisms, political aspirations. But you couldn't tell me what it smells like in the Sistine Chapel. You've never stood there and looked up at that beautiful ceiling. And if I asked you about women I'm sure you could give me a syllabus of your personal favorites, and maybe you've been laid a few times too. But you couldn't tell me how it feels to wake up next to a woman and be truly happy. If I asked you about war you could refer me to a bevy of fictional and non-fictional material, but you've never been in one. You've never held your best friend's head in your lap and watched him draw his last breath, looking to you for help. And if I asked you about love I'd get a sonnet, but you've never looked at a woman and been truly vulnerable. Known that someone could kill you with a look. That someone could rescue you from grief. That God had put an angel on Earth just for you. And you wouldn't know how it felt to be her angel. To have the love be there for her forever. Through anything, through cancer. You wouldn't know about sleeping sitting up in a hospital room for two months holding her hand and not leaving because the doctors could see in your eyes that the term "visiting hours" didn't apply to you. And you wouldn't know about real loss, because that only occurs when you lose something you love more than yourself, and you've never dared to love anything that much."

this is how your knowledge operates. you think you know becos you've read it. but there is a world of difference between knowing and understanding or feeling. and simply knowing how something might have come to feel the way it does does not mean you understand the feeling.

I think that is pretty self-pitiful and ignorant.

I could say since you've never been jumped and kicked in the head by 5 guys you have no idea what it feels like. But I wouldn't. If you've ever taken a blunt object to the head, you know what it feels like. Just multiply that by 5, take a social experience that sucked and there you go. Voila, that's what it feels like.

I could say if you've never been hit by a truck as a kid, you don't know what it feels like. But I won't. I'll tell you, nothing. You black out, totally unconscious and you can't remember the next few years of your life or anything that happened before it. That's what it feels like.

Ahnimus · December 2006

angelica wrote:

It can be somewhat understood, and yet in order to understand one has to TRY to understand. And one must get feedback on whether one is hearing correctly what the other person is saying. And then, one is only forming a mental map that helps them understand--a map that is NOT the same as the actual territory. I spend countless hours of my life heightening awareness of subjectivity. And also increasing my empathy. I'm the first person to say this is a highly valid endeavor. It cannot be done by objectifying others, however. And when we assume our objective "objectification" is a substitute for understanding, then we do our own selves a huge disservice by keeping our awareness shut down.

Wrap your brain around this. Trust, like that for a friend or family member, is related to oxytocin and some other chemicals. Love also includes oxytocin, by inference I know what oxytocin feels like because I've experienced it in different circumstances where not all other chemicals are present. It feels like trust. Amazing isn't it?

Sex feels an aweful lot like dopamine and testosterone combined. Making love feels like those w/ Oxytocin.

hippiemom · December 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

I think that is pretty self-pitiful and ignorant.

Interesting interpretation. The speaker was not self-pitying at all. Quite the contrary, in fact.

soulsinging · December 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

I think that is pretty self-pitiful and ignorant.

I could say since you've never been jumped and kicked in the head by 5 guys you have no idea what it feels like. But I wouldn't. If you've ever taken a blunt object to the head, you know what it feels like. Just multiply that by 5, take a social experience that sucked and there you go. Voila, that's what it feels like.

I could say if you've never been hit by a truck as a kid, you don't know what it feels like. But I won't. I'll tell you, nothing. You black out, totally unconscious and you can't remember the next few years of your life or anything that happened before it. That's what it feels like.

no, becos the difference between us is i would say i have no idea what either of those feels like and wouldnt begin to presume to know. but above all, i would never tell you that the fear or whatever other emotion you felt didnt exist and was simply a chemical cocktail in your brain and that if you'd had the right drugs beforehand, you wouldnt have been scared.

soulsinging · December 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

Wrap your brain around this. Trust, like that for a friend or family member, is related to oxytocin and some other chemicals. Love also includes oxytocin, by inference I know what oxytocin feels like because I've experienced it in different circumstances where not all other chemicals are present. It feels like trust. Amazing isn't it?

Sex feels an aweful lot like dopamine and testosterone combined. Making love feels like those w/ Oxytocin.

im sure that your loved ones take great comfort in knowing that all it would take is a depletion of your oxytocin and you would no longer love them.

Ahnimus · December 2006

soulsinging wrote:

no, becos the difference between us is i would say i have no idea what either of those feels like and wouldnt begin to presume to know. but above all, i would never tell you that the fear or whatever other emotion you felt didnt exist and was simply a chemical cocktail in your brain and that if you'd had the right drugs beforehand, you wouldnt have been scared.

Actually, funny you say that, there is a specific neurological dysfunction where subjects don't fear. I can't remember what it's called or the specific brain region that is not functioning, but I'll look it up for you. They can think about fear and become afraid that way, but they are never afraid of fear triggers. Or something to that effect.

There is a neurological disorder for everything you can think of. Every subjective experience you've ever had is connected to the brain, and there are people with deficits for it.

angelica · December 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

Wrap your brain around this. Trust, like that for a friend or family member, is related to oxytocin and some other chemicals. Love also includes oxytocin, by inference I know what oxytocin feels like because I've experienced it in different circumstances where not all other chemicals are present. It feels like trust. Amazing isn't it?

Sex feels an aweful lot like dopamine and testosterone combined. Making love feels like those w/ Oxytocin.

The difference between you and I is that you are willing to trust what you project on someone else. Approximate is not the same as the same. Approximate is great as a guess, but to act like it's the truth is something different. I'm guessing when you've been alive for another 20 years or so, you'll have learned by life experience why objectifying others is not good for you. Maybe you'll figure out that in the gap between your approximation of what others feel and the reality, there's a lot of room to distort, stigmatize and bias your own awareness. Crippled awareness is crippled awareness.

soulsinging · December 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

Actually, funny you say that, there is a specific neurological dysfunction where subjects don't fear. I can't remember what it's called or the specific brain region that is not functioning, but I'll look it up for you. They can think about fear and become afraid that way, but they are never afraid of fear triggers. Or something to that effect.

There is a neurological disorder for everything you can think of. Every subjective experience you've ever had is connected to the brain, and there are people with deficits for it.

then why are you ever scared? cant you just tell yourself it's only chemicals and it's not real and there's no reason to be afraid?

Ahnimus · December 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

There is a neurological disorder for everything you can think of. Every subjective experience you've ever had is connected to the brain, and there are people with deficits for it.

I guess it's just called "Fear Recognition" impairment, deficit or dysfunction. Caused by damage to the amygdala. The case I know about was from birth though. Must have been a teratogen or mutation that affected amygdala functionality.

hippiemom · December 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

Wrap your brain around this. Trust, like that for a friend or family member, is related to oxytocin and some other chemicals. Love also includes oxytocin, by inference I know what oxytocin feels like because I've experienced it in different circumstances where not all other chemicals are present. It feels like trust. Amazing isn't it?

Sex feels an aweful lot like dopamine and testosterone combined. Making love feels like those w/ Oxytocin.

Then why does sex feel different every time?

angelica · December 2006

soulsinging wrote:

then why are you ever scared? cant you just tell yourself it's only chemicals and it's not real and there's no reason to be afraid?

Shhhhhhh....Ahnimus hasn't yet figured out that science lacks the ability to assess the value to the information he has has. Value is subjective. One must rely on their personal value system in order to determine value.

sweet adeline · December 2006

angelica wrote:

Shhhhhhh....Ahnimus hasn't yet figured out that science lacks the ability to assess the value to the information he has has. Value is subjective. One must rely on their personal value system in order to determine value.

angelica writes beautifully and is beautiful

angelica · December 2006

sweet adeline wrote:

angelica writes beautifully and is beautiful

Wow, that is so sweet!

Thanks! (are you drinking??

)

sweet adeline · December 2006

angelica wrote:

Wow, that is so sweet! Thanks! (are you drinking?? )

yes i am, but its only allowing my true feelings to come out

angelica · December 2006

sweet adeline wrote:

yes i am, but its only allowing my true feelings to come out

That's cool, 'cause I'm partial to affectionate drinkers.

sweet adeline · December 2006

angelica wrote:

That's cool, 'cause I'm partial to affectionate drinkers.

then i'm your man

angelica · December 2006

sweet adeline wrote:

then i'm your man

sweet adeline · December 2006

angelica wrote:

plus, i'm listening to "gtf" so i'm in a really good mood right now.

he's...

flyin'....

whoaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...

get me back to hawaii, asap.

logic vs feeling

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