logic vs feeling

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

You definitely don't know what it's like to be me, Ahnimus! You can't possibly understand the variables in my interactions with sweet adeline.

Ah, but there are variables. With enough information, I can possibly understand.

I can understand Adolf Hitler, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart or anyone that I learn enough about.

I don't see why the idea isn't more accepted. First of all, why block people from trying to understand? Don't better relationships come from sharing information and developing a mutual understanding?

Remember we totally agree in principle, we just don't see eye-to-eye on the structure of most things. Unless you have forgotten. :cool:

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

Ah, but there are variables. With enough information, I can possibly understand.

I can understand Adolf Hitler, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart or anyone that I learn enough about.

I don't see why the idea isn't more accepted. First of all, why block people from trying to understand? Don't better relationships come from sharing information and developing a mutual understanding?

Remember we totally agree in principle, we just don't see eye-to-eye on the structure of most things. Unless you have forgotten. :cool:

I agree that we agree in principle. Then we have the structure. You are looking at the structure from the outside, in mono-logic. I am experiencing it in multiple integrated dimensions from the inside and outside! When/if you come to integrate your logic and emotion, you'll know just what I mean. Oh, and you're abusive and disrespectful, further illustrating your lack of emotional intelligence.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

I agree that we agree in principle. Then we have the structure. You are looking at the structure from the outside, in mono-logic. I am experiencing it in multiple integrated dimensions from the inside and outside! When/if you come to integrate your logic and emotion, you'll know just what I mean. Oh, and you're abusive and disrespectful, further illustrating your lack of emotional intelligence.

Abusive and disrespectful?
This is news to me.

I don't exactly agree with your interpretation of subjective/objective harmony. I don't doubt that you utilize as much as you can. I just think we interpret our input differently on all levels.

I live my life as if feelings and emotions are the key factor. Taking the time to look at my responses retrospectively and promote better engrams, enables me to react better emotionally in the majority of my interactions. I just think when discussing serious topics we need to look at it very objectively. Normal social interactions are completely different. It's all series of emotional states.

Don't think of me as a logic machine totally devoid of anything else. I'm not a robot. If you feel hurt by what I think you mean by abusive and disrespectful and require an apology, then accept it. If we need to have that level of relationship to discuss topics like this, it's going to be very difficult. I'm not as emotionally sensitive as you are. I don't always react that way. I don't hold grudges or expect any apologies. I interact on a level of understanding that all people are people and react similarly. Most things go without saying. If I am sympathetic to Charles Manson, imagine how I feel about you.

soulsinging

Ahnimus wrote:

Abusive and disrespectful?
This is news to me.

I don't exactly agree with your interpretation of subjective/objective harmony. I don't doubt that you utilize as much as you can. I just think we interpret our input differently on all levels.

I live my life as if feelings and emotions are the key factor. Taking the time to look at my responses retrospectively and promote better engrams, enables me to react better emotionally in the majority of my interactions. I just think when discussing serious topics we need to look at it very objectively. Normal social interactions are completely different. It's all series of emotional states.

Don't think of me as a logic machine totally devoid of anything else. I'm not a robot. If you feel hurt by what I think you mean by abusive and disrespectful and require an apology, then accept it. If we need to have that level of relationship to discuss topics like this, it's going to be very difficult. I'm not as emotionally sensitive as you are. I don't always react that way. I don't hold grudges or expect any apologies. I interact on a level of understanding that all people are people and react similarly. Most things go without saying. If I am sympathetic to Charles Manson, imagine how I feel about you.

wow, you're a real hero. a regular jesus christ. weren't you the one that claimed you told a gf (upon being asked if you loved her) that it didnt matter but you probably didnt? to deny the existence of emotion makes you a logic machine. to refuse to acknowledge or feel love shows how scared you are of truly coming to terms with your emotions. you're terrified of having to accept something you dont have control over, so you attempt to rationalize and quantify it as chemicals and treat them as if they don't exist.

the sistine chapel may have smelled like paint. it may have also smelled like dust and many other things. but the point is, you were never there and you cannot tell what it smelled like to you. you can't say how impressive it was to stand there and soak in the sheer magnitude of his ambition and work.

i hope im never sitting next to you at a pearl jam concert. it'd be a total buzzkill.

chopitdown

soulsinging wrote:

the sistine chapel may have smelled like paint. it may have also smelled like dust and many other things. but the point is, you were never there and you cannot tell what it smelled like to you. you can't say how impressive it was to stand there and soak in the sheer magnitude of his ambition and work.

i hope im never sitting next to you at a pearl jam concert. it'd be a total buzzkill.

i kept going back to this scene while reading this thread and other threads.

"So if I asked you about art, you'd probably give me the skinny on every art book ever written. Michelangelo, you know a lot about him. Life's work, political aspirations, him and the pope, sexual orientations, the whole works, right? But I'll bet you can't tell me what it smells like in the Sistine Chapel. You've never actually stood there and looked up at that beautiful ceiling; seen that. If I ask you about women, you'd probably give me a syllabus about your personal favorites. You may have even been laid a few times. But you can't tell me what it feels like to wake up next to a woman and feel truly happy. You're a tough kid. And I'd ask you about war, you'd probably throw Shakespeare at me, right, "once more unto the breach dear friends." But you've never been near one. You've never held your best friend's head in your lap, watch him gasp his last breath looking to you for help. I'd ask you about love, you'd probably quote me a sonnet. But you've never looked at a woman and been totally vulnerable. Known someone that could level you with her eyes, feeling like God put an angel on earth just for you. Who could rescue you from the depths of hell. And you wouldn't know what it's like to be her angel, to have that love for her, be there forever, through anything, through cancer. And you wouldn't know about sleeping sitting up in the hospital room for two months, holding her hand, because the doctors could see in your eyes, that the terms "visiting hours" don't apply to you. You don't know about real loss, 'cause it only occurs when you've loved something more than you love yourself. And I doubt you've ever dared to love anybody that much...

soulsinging

chopitdown wrote:

i kept going back to this scene while reading this thread and other threads.

"So if I asked you about art, you'd probably give me the skinny on every art book ever written. Michelangelo, you know a lot about him. Life's work, political aspirations, him and the pope, sexual orientations, the whole works, right? But I'll bet you can't tell me what it smells like in the Sistine Chapel. You've never actually stood there and looked up at that beautiful ceiling; seen that. If I ask you about women, you'd probably give me a syllabus about your personal favorites. You may have even been laid a few times. But you can't tell me what it feels like to wake up next to a woman and feel truly happy. You're a tough kid. And I'd ask you about war, you'd probably throw Shakespeare at me, right, "once more unto the breach dear friends." But you've never been near one. You've never held your best friend's head in your lap, watch him gasp his last breath looking to you for help. I'd ask you about love, you'd probably quote me a sonnet. But you've never looked at a woman and been totally vulnerable. Known someone that could level you with her eyes, feeling like God put an angel on earth just for you. Who could rescue you from the depths of hell. And you wouldn't know what it's like to be her angel, to have that love for her, be there forever, through anything, through cancer. And you wouldn't know about sleeping sitting up in the hospital room for two months, holding her hand, because the doctors could see in your eyes, that the terms "visiting hours" don't apply to you. You don't know about real loss, 'cause it only occurs when you've loved something more than you love yourself. And I doubt you've ever dared to love anybody that much...

yeah, i quoted that one myself about one page back. shockingly, he didnt get it.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

I live my life as if feelings and emotions are the key factor. Taking the time to look at my responses retrospectively and promote better engrams, enables me to react better emotionally in the majority of my interactions. I just think when discussing serious topics we need to look at it very objectively. Normal social interactions are completely different. It's all series of emotional states.

You say "when discussing serious topics we need to look at it very objectively". If you practised what you preach, that would be a different story. If you were to do so, you would stick to the subject matter and avoid insults, derogatory comments and low blows. When you move to degradation, it's clear you are coming from your own dysfunctional emotional issues rather than reason.

If you feel hurt by what I think you mean by abusive and disrespectful and require an apology, then accept it.

I'm well aware that your need to demean and your derogatory tendencies are about yourself, and your inability to logically address the subject matter. Your choices are not a reflection of myself. I don't accept or own them, much less ask or expect anything from you. You are who you are. I've said before you represent for you. That's your own consequence. How you portray yourself reflects right back to you.

If we need to have that level of relationship to discuss topics like this, it's going to be very difficult. I'm not as emotionally sensitive as you are. I don't always react that way. I don't hold grudges or expect any apologies. I interact on a level of understanding that all people are people and react similarly. Most things go without saying. If I am sympathetic to Charles Manson, imagine how I feel about you.

What your behaviour shows me is that you are unable to interact on a mature, adult level. I respond accordingly. For example, due to your responses and actions since I've "met" you, I don't trust you, I don't particularly like you and I don't enjoy interacting with you most of the time. And for those who act respectful and interact on an intelligent level--and there are many out here--I look forward to hanging out with and growing in interaction with them. It is what it is.

baraka

Very interesting thread. This thread and another (the one about determinism) got me thinking about the quest for 'The Theory of Everything'. Many scientist believe such a theory is possible. But if it is, couldn't the theory become constrained by the requirements of mathematical consistency. There could be only one unified system of physics, with laws fixed by logical necessity. Science is no longer an empirical matter, but an off-shoot of deductive logic. The properties of the world would be deducible by reason alone. I'm reminded of Descartes that believed physics should be rooted in reason alone rather than empirical observation. So much for theoretical physics................. Personally, I don't know about all that! It seems to me that the greatest human accomplishments, whether in the the field of mathematics, science, music, art, etc, did NOT proceed through logic & reasoning alone. As a matter of fact, it seems to me that such a rigid mindset would only limit an individual's creativity. So now I'm going to drop some Einstein quotes. Why? Because, who's going to argue with Einstein? He he. No, I just find truth in the following quotes:

" The intellect has little to do on the road to discovery. There comes a leap in consciousness, call it intuition or what you will, the solution comes to you and you don't know how or why"

"Imagination is more inportant that knowledge, Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."

hippiemom

baraka wrote:

" The intellect has little to do on the road to discovery. There comes a leap in consciousness, call it intuition or what you will, the solution comes to you and you don't know how or why"

"Imagination is more inportant that knowledge, Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."

Yup, there's a reason the name "Einstein" has become synonymous with "genius." Great quotes

baraka

hippiemom wrote:

Yup, there's a reason the name "Einstein" has become synonymous with "genius." Great quotes

Indeed! Einstein did wonders for our understanding of the physical universe, but he also seemed to have an uncanny insight on the human condition. Another one of my favs from him:

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a persistent one"

angelica

hippiemom wrote:

Yup, there's a reason the name "Einstein" has become synonymous with "genius." Great quotes

I agree! Your quotes speak volumes, baraka!

angelica

baraka wrote:

Indeed! Einstein did wonders for our understanding of the physical universe, but he also seemed to have an uncanny insight on the human condition. Another one of my favs from him:

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a persistent one"

I'm currently reading another holographic universe book that is talking about this "persistent" illusion. It's talking about how much logical gymnastics we must use in order to uphold our current physics ideas. And how it goes against a true sense of reality. Fascinating stuff. Apparently it takes us so much energy operating within such gymnastics that as the Eastern religions tell us, we are totally out of touch with the experience of reality!

El_Kabong

angelica wrote:

I'm currently reading another holographic universe book that is talking about this "persistent" illusion. It's talking about how much logical gymnastics we must use in order to uphold our current physics ideas. And how it goes against a true sense of reality. Fascinating stuff. Apparently it takes us so much energy operating within such gymnastics that as the Eastern religions tell us, we are totally out of touch with the experience of reality!

our reality consists of jingles and bad marketing

Abookamongstthemany

baraka wrote:

. So now I'm going to drop some Einstein quotes. Why? Because, who's going to argue with Einstein? He he. No, I just find truth in the following quotes:

" The intellect has little to do on the road to discovery. There comes a leap in consciousness, call it intuition or what you will, the solution comes to you and you don't know how or why"

"Imagination is more inportant that knowledge, Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."

Lovely quotes, baraka. I'm addicted to quotes. If only I could come off sounding so profound and wise.

"There can be no knowledge without emotion. We may be aware of a truth, yet until we have felt its force, it is not ours. To the cognition of the brain must be added the experience of the soul.” - Arnold Bennett

angelica

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Lovely quotes, baraka. I'm addicted to quotes. If only I could come off sounding so profound and wise.

"There can be no knowledge without emotion. We may be aware of a truth, yet until we have felt its force, it is not ours. To the cognition of the brain must be added the experience of the soul.” - Arnold Bennett

Very nice, Abook! I love that one.

It's not shocking that since for hundreds of years we've been downplaying the evolutionary validity of emotion that many of us are dissociated from our emotions to sometimes scary degrees. And that's "normal". Thank heavens this has been in the process of changing for some time. Even when we dissociate from our emotions, they are still faithfully there, woven into all our processes, as your quote implies.

El_Kabong

interesting reasearch:

Neuroscientist Antonio Damasio studied people who had received brain injuries that had had one specific effect: to damage that part of the brain where emotions are generated. In all other respects they seemed normal - they just lost the ability to feel emotions.

The interesting thing he found was that their ability to make decisions was seriously impaired. They could logically describe what they should be doing, in practice they found it very difficult to make decisions about where to live, what to eat, etc.

In particular, many decisions have pros and cons on both sides. Shall I have the fish or the beef? With no rational way to decide, they were unable to make the decision.

Ahnimus

" The intellect has little to do on the road to discovery. There comes a leap in consciousness, call it intuition or what you will, the solution comes to you and you don't know how or why"

Exactly and now we know how and why. Did you all forget Einstein didn't buy into free-will?

"Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect as well as the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper." - Albert Einstein

"I do not at all believe in human freedom in the philosophical sense. Everybody acts not only under external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity. Schopenhauer's saying, 'A man can do what he wants, but not want what he wants,' has been a real inspiration to me since my youth." - Albert Einstein

Ahnimus

El_Kabong wrote:

interesting reasearch:

Neuroscientist Antonio Damasio studied people who had received brain injuries that had had one specific effect: to damage that part of the brain where emotions are generated. In all other respects they seemed normal - they just lost the ability to feel emotions.

The interesting thing he found was that their ability to make decisions was seriously impaired. They could logically describe what they should be doing, in practice they found it very difficult to make decisions about where to live, what to eat, etc.

In particular, many decisions have pros and cons on both sides. Shall I have the fish or the beef? With no rational way to decide, they were unable to make the decision.

What part of the brain did it say? The hypothalamus?

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

What your behaviour shows me is that you are unable to interact on a mature, adult level. I respond accordingly. For example, due to your responses and actions since I've "met" you, I don't trust you, I don't particularly like you and I don't enjoy interacting with you most of the time. And for those who act respectful and interact on an intelligent level--and there are many out here--I look forward to hanging out with and growing in interaction with them. It is what it is.

I would suggest letting it go Angelica. There is no need for this kind of bullshit on this forum.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

" The intellect has little to do on the road to discovery. There comes a leap in consciousness, call it intuition or what you will, the solution comes to you and you don't know how or why"

Exactly and now we know how and why. Did you all forget Einstein didn't buy into free-will?

I think you have your threads confused. This is the feelings vs logic thread. Discerning information is different than lumping it altogether indiscriminately.

Because Einstein made quotes on free will does not minimize the validity of the quotes he made regarding imagination and reality.