how do you measure these? why do some kids get beat by their parents and grow up to be serial killers and others rise above it and become crusaders against abuse?
Bullshit. Feelings are mixtures of brain chemicals that EVERYONE has in a normal brain. You can't tell me that oxytocin feels differently to you than it does to me, that's just ridiculous.
I definitely will tell you exactly that. Adamantly. You are objectifying people. As I said earlier in this thread, you obviously don't understand "subjective". You are way overboard in seeing objective in everything that you are not able to see the balance of the two.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Oh, I think I mentioned in that thread that I've found Ahnimus more repulsive than anyone I've ever been up against on this board. Or, maybe I said "repelling". I'm well aware he has issues. I completely understand why you were/would-be frustrated with him. He was repelling from our first conversations.
so you were more incensed that i insulted autistic people by comparing them to ahnimus than the other way round
Uh, wrong again pal. I was close to a girl that died.
She was my "girlfriend' but we had a strong liking for each other. I know what that felt like, and I can imagine how that would feel to my bro, since I've had friends and family die.
You know how YOU felt when a particular girl died. I imagine you felt somewhat different when other people you know have died, based on your relationship with them, your general state of mind at the time, and other variables. Since no one else in the world shares in the relationship between your brother and his girlfriend, and no one else in the world shares his genetic makeup, and no one else has had all of his experiences, no one can know exactly how he feels.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
you can't honestly tell me you believe everyone has the exact same response to things???
Not exactly, but it's not as if everyone has a unique feeling, there would be no point in having words to describe them. A slight difference in chemical reaction isn't going to make the word unusable and therefor not impossible to imagine.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I definitely will tell you exactly that. Adamantly. You are objectifying people. As I said earlier in this thread, you obviously don't understand "subjective". You are way overboard in seeing objective in everything that you are not able to see the balance of the two.
I am a fucking person.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
You know how YOU felt when a particular girl died. I imagine you felt somewhat different when other people you know have died, based on your relationship with them, your general state of mind at the time, and other variables. Since no one else in the world shares in the relationship between your brother and his girlfriend, and no one else in the world shares his genetic makeup, and no one else has had all of his experiences, no one can know exactly how he feels.
I felt the same when all of them died. It's the same feeling.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I am not a robot, I know what subjective means, I know what emotions and feelings are, but I know how they come about and how they work within the brain. You assume they are some mystical, mysterious, unimaginable thing that exists outside of reality.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
how do you measure these? why do some kids get beat by their parents and grow up to be serial killers and others rise above it and become crusaders against abuse?
Environmental influences. You are thinking in terms of linear cause and effect.
I could have very easily been a serial killer if not for one person, or maybe two persons.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I felt the same when all of them died. It's the same feeling.
You had the exact same feelings when your grandma died, as when your girlfriend died, as when your co-worker died??? (Those are just examples, obviously). Ahnimus, that is not normal.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
You had the exact same feelings when your grandma died, as when your girlfriend died, as when your co-worker died??? (Those are just examples, obviously). Ahnimus, that is not normal.
Yes it is, it's the same feeling, with different memories attached.
You are all going to have to wait for my rebuttal, I have to go now, be back in a bit.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I am not a robot, I know what subjective means, I know what emotions and feelings are, but I know how they come about and how they work within the brain. You assume they are some mystical, mysterious, unimaginable thing that exists outside of reality.
You ASSUME that I think that--you IMAGINE that's what I think. You put words and thoughts into my head because you "objectify" me. You need to fill in the blanks for what you can't undertand that I'm saying. You continually show that you don't comprehend what I'm actually saying. In the meantime, you gloss over what subjective experience is. It can only be understood individually. That's why it's NOT OBJECTIVE experience!
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I am not a robot, I know what subjective means, I know what emotions and feelings are, but I know how they come about and how they work within the brain. You assume they are some mystical, mysterious, unimaginable thing that exists outside of reality.
I don't think they're mysterious or outside of reality. I do think they're subjective and not quantifiable. There is certainly more to them than a chemical reaction.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
You ASSUME that I think that--you IMAGINE that's what I think. You put words and thoughts into my head because you "objectify" me. You need to fill in the blanks for what you can't undertand that I'm saying. You continually show that you don't comprehend what I'm actually saying. In the meantime, you gloss over what subjective experience is. It can only be understood individually. That's why it's NOT OBJECTIVE experience!
Calm down, you get so excited! Maybe you should lay off the subjective emotional experience a bit.
I know what you are saying, it doesn't mean that the underlying processes and basis for those emotions and experiences doesn't follow a logical system that can be understood.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I don't think they're mysterious or outside of reality. I do think they're subjective and not quantifiable. There is certainly more to them than a chemical reaction.
I'm going to go on hiatus and let hippiemom speak for me.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I don't think they're mysterious or outside of reality. I do think they're subjective and not quantifiable. There is certainly more to them than a chemical reaction.
You are talking about "Qualia". It's very explainable and quantifiable.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Calm down, you get so excited! Maybe you should lay off the subjective emotional experience a bit.
I know what you are saying, it doesn't mean that the underlying processes and basis for those emotions and experiences doesn't follow a logical system that can be understood.
Ahnimus, saying you get something, and showing it are two different things. If you say one thing and act out another--like when you act out complete non-understanding of subjectivity, I see what your actions are saying. I hear you loud and clear.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
You are talking about "Qualia". It's very explainable and quantifiable.
Look at what we were talking about in the other thread. I have been pregnant, so I could say that I know how it feels. I would say that it is a thoroughly unpleasant experience, but that is only how it felt to me. To my step-sister, it was her most wonderful experience in life. I was miserable, she was joyous. Same biological process going on, two drastically different responses.
Regarding mourning, I had a very close friend who was shot and killed during a time in my life where I was dealing with multiple other traumas. Years later, when my life was settled, my grandmother died after a long illness. My feelings about losing these two people that I loved were as different as night and day. The way they died, my relationship with each of them, other things in my life at the time ... all of these things and others affected how I felt. No one else on earth knows exactly how I felt. You know how YOU feel when people close to you have died. You have no way of knowing if that is the same feeling someone else is experiencing.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
The way they died, my relationship with each of them, other things in my life at the time ... all of these things and others affected how I felt.
And then some. That's the point, you just quantified your own feeling. Other people could experience the same thing.
My belief regarding pregnancy is that it's related to past experience. My ex-gf had a lot of bad experiences, I think she learned with me not to be so judgmental and that carried over, now she is seeing the quality of life with having a child. Pregnant women getting very emotionally attached to their unborn children. I think it's an eye-opener for her. Your eyes may already have been opened, so relatively speaking, being pregnant sucked.
Einstein's theory of special relativity explains all of this.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Listen, I spend more time reading about this stuff then I spend sleeping every day. I've devoted a lot of my time to understanding emotion, consciousness and the like. I spend far more time doing that than anything else, including work and listening to music.
I can't write you a soundbyte or a short paragraph that's going to cause everyone on this board to have a paradigm shift. I can't invoke on you all my experiences that underly the basis for my interest. The interest that brought me to study it. It's something each and every individual has to do themselves.
I would say the percent population that agrees with me is probably below 5%. That's how rare my point of view is, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. This is the beginning of a revolution. A revolution that will take 100 to 1000 years to permeate the planet.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Environmental influences. You are thinking in terms of linear cause and effect.
I could have very easily been a serial killer if not for one person, or maybe two persons.
but you're saying that emotions are eminently predictable by linear cause and effect. you have X experience and Y chemicals are released and you inevitably have Z response. you're the one claiming human behavior is perfectly predictable. that implies a linear cause and effect. just like physics or any other science.
but you're saying that emotions are eminently predictable by linear cause and effect. you have X experience and Y chemicals are released and you inevitably have Z response. you're the one claiming human behavior is perfectly predictable. that implies a linear cause and effect. just like physics or any other science.
That's still too linear for my liking. You could use the whole alphabet a dozen times and it would still be too linear. But you can get a general idea from just a few variables. Knowing all the variables would grant one the ability to make completely accurate predictions, but is not required to make good predictions.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Listen, I spend more time reading about this stuff then I spend sleeping every day. I've devoted a lot of my time to understanding emotion, consciousness and the like. I spend far more time doing that than anything else, including work and listening to music.
I can't write you a soundbyte or a short paragraph that's going to cause everyone on this board to have a paradigm shift. I can't invoke on you all my experiences that underly the basis for my interest. The interest that brought me to study it. It's something each and every individual has to do themselves.
I would say the percent population that agrees with me is probably below 5%. That's how rare my point of view is, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. This is the beginning of a revolution. A revolution that will take 100 to 1000 years to permeate the planet.
or 10 to be dismissed as a crackpot notion with no practical value or evidentiary basis.
you've devoted your life to "understanding" emotion, but you cannot learn emotion from a textbook.
And then some. That's the point, you just quantified your own feeling. Other people could experience the same thing.
But how would we ever know? I could write a 20-page thesis on all of my emotions regarding their deaths, but when reading it, you would still filter it through all of your own experience. A detailed explanation of my feelings won't enable you to know what it felt like to be me at that time.
My belief regarding pregnancy is that it's related to past experience. My ex-gf had a lot of bad experiences, I think she learned with me not to be so judgmental and that carried over, now she is seeing the quality of life with having a child. Pregnant women getting very emotionally attached to their unborn children. I think it's an eye-opener for her. Your eyes may already have been opened, so relatively speaking, being pregnant sucked.
Our feelings about everything are related to past experience. They're also related to current reality, our genetic makeup, our brain chemistry, our learned patterns of behavior, our philosophies, and countless other things. Because those things will never be the same for any two people, we can never know how someone else feels. We can empathize with someone who has lost a loved one, because we know that losing a loved one is not a pleasant experience, we remember that we felt bad when it happened to us, but we have no way of knowing if another person feels bad in the same way that we do.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
then why do you not have the same feeling when you read about a death in the paper? or see a funeral announcement?
Essentially I do, but I have no memory of those people, so the feeling doesn't linger as I recall everything I've been through with them.
An individual is connected to experiences I've shared with them. These engrams formulate a "feeling" about them. When I am in contact with the individual these "feelings" are present. When I hear about them, they are present. When they die they are present.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Listen, I spend more time reading about this stuff then I spend sleeping every day. I've devoted a lot of my time to understanding emotion, consciousness and the like. I spend far more time doing that than anything else, including work and listening to music.
I can't write you a soundbyte or a short paragraph that's going to cause everyone on this board to have a paradigm shift. I can't invoke on you all my experiences that underly the basis for my interest. The interest that brought me to study it. It's something each and every individual has to do themselves.
I would say the percent population that agrees with me is probably below 5%. That's how rare my point of view is, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. This is the beginning of a revolution. A revolution that will take 100 to 1000 years to permeate the planet.
The problems steps in when you objectify others and rather than learn and understand, you project your ideas on them and tell yourself that's the truth. I guess it's about being a young, left-handed (edit: I mean right-handed, assuming you are), predominantly left-brained-operating male. You're a product of your brain functioning, and yet you seem to not understand how your own filters distort incoming information into your own point of view which is subjective. More power to you, but when you shut down to anything beyond those filters, you live based on "scripts" that you create, rather than understanding more of the world. To each their own, I guess.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
But how would we ever know? I could write a 20-page thesis on all of my emotions regarding their deaths, but when reading it, you would still filter it through all of your own experience. A detailed explanation of my feelings won't enable you to know what it felt like to be me at that time.
Our feelings about everything are related to past experience. They're also related to current reality, our genetic makeup, our brain chemistry, our learned patterns of behavior, our philosophies, and countless other things. Because those things will never be the same for any two people, we can never know how someone else feels. We can empathize with someone who has lost a loved one, because we know that losing a loved one is not a pleasant experience, we remember that we felt bad when it happened to us, but we have no way of knowing if another person feels bad in the same way that we do.
That's exactly what I was saying in the "Free-will" thread. Funny how things work out that way.
It's defeatis to me to say we can't understand or feel what another person feels. We do it all the time, not exactly but sufficiently enough to be empathetic. Whenever we assume something is beyond our understanding we limit ourselves.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
The problems steps in when you objectify others and rather than learn and understand, you project your ideas on them and tell yourself that's the truth. I guess it's about being a young, left-handed (edit: I mean right-handed, assuming you are), predominantly left-brained-operating male. You're a product of your brain functioning, and yet you seem to not understand how your own filters distort incoming information into your own point of view which is subjective. More power to you, but when you shut down to anything beyond those filters, you live based on "scripts" that you create, rather than understanding more of the world. To each their own, I guess.
That's a fairly accurate description of every human being that's ever existed and ever will exist. Yourself included.
You are saying subjective experience cannot be understood and shutting yourself down to anything beyond that filter.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Comments
how do you measure these? why do some kids get beat by their parents and grow up to be serial killers and others rise above it and become crusaders against abuse?
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
so you were more incensed that i insulted autistic people by comparing them to ahnimus than the other way round
Not exactly, but it's not as if everyone has a unique feeling, there would be no point in having words to describe them. A slight difference in chemical reaction isn't going to make the word unusable and therefor not impossible to imagine.
I am a fucking person.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I felt the same when all of them died. It's the same feeling.
I am not a robot, I know what subjective means, I know what emotions and feelings are, but I know how they come about and how they work within the brain. You assume they are some mystical, mysterious, unimaginable thing that exists outside of reality.
Environmental influences. You are thinking in terms of linear cause and effect.
I could have very easily been a serial killer if not for one person, or maybe two persons.
Yes it is, it's the same feeling, with different memories attached.
You are all going to have to wait for my rebuttal, I have to go now, be back in a bit.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Calm down, you get so excited! Maybe you should lay off the subjective emotional experience a bit.
I know what you are saying, it doesn't mean that the underlying processes and basis for those emotions and experiences doesn't follow a logical system that can be understood.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
You are talking about "Qualia". It's very explainable and quantifiable.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Regarding mourning, I had a very close friend who was shot and killed during a time in my life where I was dealing with multiple other traumas. Years later, when my life was settled, my grandmother died after a long illness. My feelings about losing these two people that I loved were as different as night and day. The way they died, my relationship with each of them, other things in my life at the time ... all of these things and others affected how I felt. No one else on earth knows exactly how I felt. You know how YOU feel when people close to you have died. You have no way of knowing if that is the same feeling someone else is experiencing.
And then some. That's the point, you just quantified your own feeling. Other people could experience the same thing.
My belief regarding pregnancy is that it's related to past experience. My ex-gf had a lot of bad experiences, I think she learned with me not to be so judgmental and that carried over, now she is seeing the quality of life with having a child. Pregnant women getting very emotionally attached to their unborn children. I think it's an eye-opener for her. Your eyes may already have been opened, so relatively speaking, being pregnant sucked.
Einstein's theory of special relativity explains all of this.
I can't write you a soundbyte or a short paragraph that's going to cause everyone on this board to have a paradigm shift. I can't invoke on you all my experiences that underly the basis for my interest. The interest that brought me to study it. It's something each and every individual has to do themselves.
I would say the percent population that agrees with me is probably below 5%. That's how rare my point of view is, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. This is the beginning of a revolution. A revolution that will take 100 to 1000 years to permeate the planet.
but you're saying that emotions are eminently predictable by linear cause and effect. you have X experience and Y chemicals are released and you inevitably have Z response. you're the one claiming human behavior is perfectly predictable. that implies a linear cause and effect. just like physics or any other science.
then why do you not have the same feeling when you read about a death in the paper? or see a funeral announcement?
That's still too linear for my liking. You could use the whole alphabet a dozen times and it would still be too linear. But you can get a general idea from just a few variables. Knowing all the variables would grant one the ability to make completely accurate predictions, but is not required to make good predictions.
or 10 to be dismissed as a crackpot notion with no practical value or evidentiary basis.
you've devoted your life to "understanding" emotion, but you cannot learn emotion from a textbook.
Our feelings about everything are related to past experience. They're also related to current reality, our genetic makeup, our brain chemistry, our learned patterns of behavior, our philosophies, and countless other things. Because those things will never be the same for any two people, we can never know how someone else feels. We can empathize with someone who has lost a loved one, because we know that losing a loved one is not a pleasant experience, we remember that we felt bad when it happened to us, but we have no way of knowing if another person feels bad in the same way that we do.
Essentially I do, but I have no memory of those people, so the feeling doesn't linger as I recall everything I've been through with them.
An individual is connected to experiences I've shared with them. These engrams formulate a "feeling" about them. When I am in contact with the individual these "feelings" are present. When I hear about them, they are present. When they die they are present.
The problems steps in when you objectify others and rather than learn and understand, you project your ideas on them and tell yourself that's the truth. I guess it's about being a young, left-handed (edit: I mean right-handed, assuming you are), predominantly left-brained-operating male. You're a product of your brain functioning, and yet you seem to not understand how your own filters distort incoming information into your own point of view which is subjective. More power to you, but when you shut down to anything beyond those filters, you live based on "scripts" that you create, rather than understanding more of the world. To each their own, I guess.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
That's exactly what I was saying in the "Free-will" thread. Funny how things work out that way.
It's defeatis to me to say we can't understand or feel what another person feels. We do it all the time, not exactly but sufficiently enough to be empathetic. Whenever we assume something is beyond our understanding we limit ourselves.
That's a fairly accurate description of every human being that's ever existed and ever will exist. Yourself included.
You are saying subjective experience cannot be understood and shutting yourself down to anything beyond that filter.