one of the few times a movie quote seemed appropriate to me. for you ahnimus:
"So if I asked you about art you could give me the skinny on every art book ever written...Michelangelo? You know a lot about him I bet. Life's work, criticisms, political aspirations. But you couldn't tell me what it smells like in the Sistine Chapel. You've never stood there and looked up at that beautiful ceiling. And if I asked you about women I'm sure you could give me a syllabus of your personal favorites, and maybe you've been laid a few times too. But you couldn't tell me how it feels to wake up next to a woman and be truly happy. If I asked you about war you could refer me to a bevy of fictional and non-fictional material, but you've never been in one. You've never held your best friend's head in your lap and watched him draw his last breath, looking to you for help. And if I asked you about love I'd get a sonnet, but you've never looked at a woman and been truly vulnerable. Known that someone could kill you with a look. That someone could rescue you from grief. That God had put an angel on Earth just for you. And you wouldn't know how it felt to be her angel. To have the love be there for her forever. Through anything, through cancer. You wouldn't know about sleeping sitting up in a hospital room for two months holding her hand and not leaving because the doctors could see in your eyes that the term "visiting hours" didn't apply to you. And you wouldn't know about real loss, because that only occurs when you lose something you love more than yourself, and you've never dared to love anything that much."
this is how your knowledge operates. you think you know becos you've read it. but there is a world of difference between knowing and understanding or feeling. and simply knowing how something might have come to feel the way it does does not mean you understand the feeling.
That's a fairly accurate description of every human being that's ever existed and ever will exist. Yourself included.
There are certain types of people who objectify others, and there are ones who are heightened in their subjective awareness and strive to understand individuals in their separate contexts. In my case, I'm consciously aware of my own blindspots and biases, and I'm fully welcoming when others bring new ones to my attention so that I can learn. Many people are this way. Many are not.
You are saying subjective experience cannot be understood and shutting yourself down to anything beyond that filter.
It can be somewhat understood, and yet in order to understand one has to TRY to understand. And one must get feedback on whether one is hearing correctly what the other person is saying. And then, one is only forming a mental map that helps them understand--a map that is NOT the same as the actual territory. I spend countless hours of my life heightening awareness of subjectivity. And also increasing my empathy. I'm the first person to say this is a highly valid endeavor. It cannot be done by objectifying others, however. And when we assume our objective "objectification" is a substitute for understanding, then we do our own selves a huge disservice by keeping our awareness shut down.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
one of the few times a movie quote seemed appropriate to me. for you ahnimus:
"So if I asked you about art you could give me the skinny on every art book ever written...Michelangelo? You know a lot about him I bet. Life's work, criticisms, political aspirations. But you couldn't tell me what it smells like in the Sistine Chapel. You've never stood there and looked up at that beautiful ceiling. And if I asked you about women I'm sure you could give me a syllabus of your personal favorites, and maybe you've been laid a few times too. But you couldn't tell me how it feels to wake up next to a woman and be truly happy. If I asked you about war you could refer me to a bevy of fictional and non-fictional material, but you've never been in one. You've never held your best friend's head in your lap and watched him draw his last breath, looking to you for help. And if I asked you about love I'd get a sonnet, but you've never looked at a woman and been truly vulnerable. Known that someone could kill you with a look. That someone could rescue you from grief. That God had put an angel on Earth just for you. And you wouldn't know how it felt to be her angel. To have the love be there for her forever. Through anything, through cancer. You wouldn't know about sleeping sitting up in a hospital room for two months holding her hand and not leaving because the doctors could see in your eyes that the term "visiting hours" didn't apply to you. And you wouldn't know about real loss, because that only occurs when you lose something you love more than yourself, and you've never dared to love anything that much."
this is how your knowledge operates. you think you know becos you've read it. but there is a world of difference between knowing and understanding or feeling. and simply knowing how something might have come to feel the way it does does not mean you understand the feeling.
I think that is pretty self-pitiful and ignorant.
I could say since you've never been jumped and kicked in the head by 5 guys you have no idea what it feels like. But I wouldn't. If you've ever taken a blunt object to the head, you know what it feels like. Just multiply that by 5, take a social experience that sucked and there you go. Voila, that's what it feels like.
I could say if you've never been hit by a truck as a kid, you don't know what it feels like. But I won't. I'll tell you, nothing. You black out, totally unconscious and you can't remember the next few years of your life or anything that happened before it. That's what it feels like.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
It can be somewhat understood, and yet in order to understand one has to TRY to understand. And one must get feedback on whether one is hearing correctly what the other person is saying. And then, one is only forming a mental map that helps them understand--a map that is NOT the same as the actual territory. I spend countless hours of my life heightening awareness of subjectivity. And also increasing my empathy. I'm the first person to say this is a highly valid endeavor. It cannot be done by objectifying others, however. And when we assume our objective "objectification" is a substitute for understanding, then we do our own selves a huge disservice by keeping our awareness shut down.
Wrap your brain around this. Trust, like that for a friend or family member, is related to oxytocin and some other chemicals. Love also includes oxytocin, by inference I know what oxytocin feels like because I've experienced it in different circumstances where not all other chemicals are present. It feels like trust. Amazing isn't it?
Sex feels an aweful lot like dopamine and testosterone combined. Making love feels like those w/ Oxytocin.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I could say since you've never been jumped and kicked in the head by 5 guys you have no idea what it feels like. But I wouldn't. If you've ever taken a blunt object to the head, you know what it feels like. Just multiply that by 5, take a social experience that sucked and there you go. Voila, that's what it feels like.
I could say if you've never been hit by a truck as a kid, you don't know what it feels like. But I won't. I'll tell you, nothing. You black out, totally unconscious and you can't remember the next few years of your life or anything that happened before it. That's what it feels like.
no, becos the difference between us is i would say i have no idea what either of those feels like and wouldnt begin to presume to know. but above all, i would never tell you that the fear or whatever other emotion you felt didnt exist and was simply a chemical cocktail in your brain and that if you'd had the right drugs beforehand, you wouldnt have been scared.
Wrap your brain around this. Trust, like that for a friend or family member, is related to oxytocin and some other chemicals. Love also includes oxytocin, by inference I know what oxytocin feels like because I've experienced it in different circumstances where not all other chemicals are present. It feels like trust. Amazing isn't it?
Sex feels an aweful lot like dopamine and testosterone combined. Making love feels like those w/ Oxytocin.
im sure that your loved ones take great comfort in knowing that all it would take is a depletion of your oxytocin and you would no longer love them.
no, becos the difference between us is i would say i have no idea what either of those feels like and wouldnt begin to presume to know. but above all, i would never tell you that the fear or whatever other emotion you felt didnt exist and was simply a chemical cocktail in your brain and that if you'd had the right drugs beforehand, you wouldnt have been scared.
Actually, funny you say that, there is a specific neurological dysfunction where subjects don't fear. I can't remember what it's called or the specific brain region that is not functioning, but I'll look it up for you. They can think about fear and become afraid that way, but they are never afraid of fear triggers. Or something to that effect.
There is a neurological disorder for everything you can think of. Every subjective experience you've ever had is connected to the brain, and there are people with deficits for it.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Wrap your brain around this. Trust, like that for a friend or family member, is related to oxytocin and some other chemicals. Love also includes oxytocin, by inference I know what oxytocin feels like because I've experienced it in different circumstances where not all other chemicals are present. It feels like trust. Amazing isn't it?
Sex feels an aweful lot like dopamine and testosterone combined. Making love feels like those w/ Oxytocin.
The difference between you and I is that you are willing to trust what you project on someone else. Approximate is not the same as the same. Approximate is great as a guess, but to act like it's the truth is something different. I'm guessing when you've been alive for another 20 years or so, you'll have learned by life experience why objectifying others is not good for you. Maybe you'll figure out that in the gap between your approximation of what others feel and the reality, there's a lot of room to distort, stigmatize and bias your own awareness. Crippled awareness is crippled awareness.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Actually, funny you say that, there is a specific neurological dysfunction where subjects don't fear. I can't remember what it's called or the specific brain region that is not functioning, but I'll look it up for you. They can think about fear and become afraid that way, but they are never afraid of fear triggers. Or something to that effect.
There is a neurological disorder for everything you can think of. Every subjective experience you've ever had is connected to the brain, and there are people with deficits for it.
then why are you ever scared? cant you just tell yourself it's only chemicals and it's not real and there's no reason to be afraid?
There is a neurological disorder for everything you can think of. Every subjective experience you've ever had is connected to the brain, and there are people with deficits for it.
I guess it's just called "Fear Recognition" impairment, deficit or dysfunction. Caused by damage to the amygdala. The case I know about was from birth though. Must have been a teratogen or mutation that affected amygdala functionality.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Wrap your brain around this. Trust, like that for a friend or family member, is related to oxytocin and some other chemicals. Love also includes oxytocin, by inference I know what oxytocin feels like because I've experienced it in different circumstances where not all other chemicals are present. It feels like trust. Amazing isn't it?
Sex feels an aweful lot like dopamine and testosterone combined. Making love feels like those w/ Oxytocin.
Then why does sex feel different every time?
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
then why are you ever scared? cant you just tell yourself it's only chemicals and it's not real and there's no reason to be afraid?
Shhhhhhh....Ahnimus hasn't yet figured out that science lacks the ability to assess the value to the information he has has. Value is subjective. One must rely on their personal value system in order to determine value.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Shhhhhhh....Ahnimus hasn't yet figured out that science lacks the ability to assess the value to the information he has has. Value is subjective. One must rely on their personal value system in order to determine value.
The difference between you and I is that you are willing to trust what you project on someone else. Approximate is not the same as the same. Approximate is great as a guess, but to act like it's the truth is something different. I'm guessing when you've been alive for another 20 years or so, you'll have learned by life experience why objectifying others is not good for you. Maybe you'll figure out that in the gap between your approximation of what others feel and the reality, there's a lot of room to distort, stigmatize and bias your own awareness. Crippled awareness is crippled awareness.
It's accurate (somewhat) to say that the brain "gives rise" to consciousness. It makes it sound like transcending, but it's not. Consciousness is kind of embedded in the brain. Existing within it.
A person has a thought; where did it come from? The brain. The brain is objective. Brain -> Thought, Object -> Subject.
As an example. If you watch Christof Koch's lectures. He as much says so. He's an expert on the visual cognitive system. He explains this as the process; Photon simutuli -> Retina -> Visual Cortex -> V1, V2/Pareital Lobe -> Frontal Lobe. A person has a Retinal deficit; they can't see, but can visual objects subjectively. A person has damage to the visual cortex; can't see, but can visualize subjectively. A person has damage to specific neurons in V1, V2; can't see, can't visualize subjectively. Some people can't perceive motion, the rest of the visual system works, but they can't visualize it. It's called the Neural Correlates of Consciousness. Prof. Koch is careful to directly link V1 and V2 to conscious awareness, but stongly implies it anyway.
Let's claim that the frontal lobe is where "logic" occurs and the pareital lobe plays no part in this hypothesis. If V1 and V2 are where conscious visual awareness occurs and the logic occurs afterwards. What does that mean? Our subjective opinions are subject to logic? No. Because we don't make opinions about sight with sight. We use a logic. If there is no logic in what "gives rise" to our awareness, then what is there? When we have a memory, neurons fire electrical signals down their axons or dendrites to make chemical synapses with another neuron causing them to fire. This happens all the time. It's very logical. Two associated memories through, a commonality will fire together, when one of them is being recalled. Synaptic plasticity, Hebbian theory. More logic that controls our memory <-> emotion connection.
Some field theories make an attempt to explain the Subjective <-> Objective interaction, but they fall short. Conscious Electromagnetic Information (CEMI) field theory, says that the electrical synapses in the brain cause an electromagnetic field, I don't dispute that at all. CEMI field theory claims that this field has the ability to interact with junctions before they close. This falls short in a few ways. The EM field doesn't last very long and is extremely low voltage insufficient to stimulate the junction. The other way, I think it falls short is that stimulating the junction a second time will only produce the same effect it did the first time. The EM field, K+ and NA+ are just natural cause and effect of the universe. If we could just constantly reuse energy we would never have to eat to resupply it. The used energy dissolves into tiny electrons. The same way we use energy when we walk or run. They probably travel through our cranium and escape into the universe to become hydrogen or something.
So, I don't really see how anything subjective could be entirely beyond explanation. We are talking about consciousness. It's a difficult thing. There is only one logical explanation for where it comes from and everything about it is logical. Love is clearly explained through several chemical interactions and olfactory receptions over time. I'm not mathematician but you can imagine when you add seratonin, vasopressin, testosterone, estrogen, oxytocin, oestregen, norepinephrine and dopamine together, one tiny variation in any level can produce a different feeling. However, it's all very logical, it will be simulated on a computer if not being done already.
You will find this underlying order or logic with any emotion or subjective thought. It's the nature of the universe... or just my twisted opinion..
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Comments
"So if I asked you about art you could give me the skinny on every art book ever written...Michelangelo? You know a lot about him I bet. Life's work, criticisms, political aspirations. But you couldn't tell me what it smells like in the Sistine Chapel. You've never stood there and looked up at that beautiful ceiling. And if I asked you about women I'm sure you could give me a syllabus of your personal favorites, and maybe you've been laid a few times too. But you couldn't tell me how it feels to wake up next to a woman and be truly happy. If I asked you about war you could refer me to a bevy of fictional and non-fictional material, but you've never been in one. You've never held your best friend's head in your lap and watched him draw his last breath, looking to you for help. And if I asked you about love I'd get a sonnet, but you've never looked at a woman and been truly vulnerable. Known that someone could kill you with a look. That someone could rescue you from grief. That God had put an angel on Earth just for you. And you wouldn't know how it felt to be her angel. To have the love be there for her forever. Through anything, through cancer. You wouldn't know about sleeping sitting up in a hospital room for two months holding her hand and not leaving because the doctors could see in your eyes that the term "visiting hours" didn't apply to you. And you wouldn't know about real loss, because that only occurs when you lose something you love more than yourself, and you've never dared to love anything that much."
this is how your knowledge operates. you think you know becos you've read it. but there is a world of difference between knowing and understanding or feeling. and simply knowing how something might have come to feel the way it does does not mean you understand the feeling.
It can be somewhat understood, and yet in order to understand one has to TRY to understand. And one must get feedback on whether one is hearing correctly what the other person is saying. And then, one is only forming a mental map that helps them understand--a map that is NOT the same as the actual territory. I spend countless hours of my life heightening awareness of subjectivity. And also increasing my empathy. I'm the first person to say this is a highly valid endeavor. It cannot be done by objectifying others, however. And when we assume our objective "objectification" is a substitute for understanding, then we do our own selves a huge disservice by keeping our awareness shut down.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I think that is pretty self-pitiful and ignorant.
I could say since you've never been jumped and kicked in the head by 5 guys you have no idea what it feels like. But I wouldn't. If you've ever taken a blunt object to the head, you know what it feels like. Just multiply that by 5, take a social experience that sucked and there you go. Voila, that's what it feels like.
I could say if you've never been hit by a truck as a kid, you don't know what it feels like. But I won't. I'll tell you, nothing. You black out, totally unconscious and you can't remember the next few years of your life or anything that happened before it. That's what it feels like.
Wrap your brain around this. Trust, like that for a friend or family member, is related to oxytocin and some other chemicals. Love also includes oxytocin, by inference I know what oxytocin feels like because I've experienced it in different circumstances where not all other chemicals are present. It feels like trust. Amazing isn't it?
Sex feels an aweful lot like dopamine and testosterone combined. Making love feels like those w/ Oxytocin.
no, becos the difference between us is i would say i have no idea what either of those feels like and wouldnt begin to presume to know. but above all, i would never tell you that the fear or whatever other emotion you felt didnt exist and was simply a chemical cocktail in your brain and that if you'd had the right drugs beforehand, you wouldnt have been scared.
im sure that your loved ones take great comfort in knowing that all it would take is a depletion of your oxytocin and you would no longer love them.
Actually, funny you say that, there is a specific neurological dysfunction where subjects don't fear. I can't remember what it's called or the specific brain region that is not functioning, but I'll look it up for you. They can think about fear and become afraid that way, but they are never afraid of fear triggers. Or something to that effect.
There is a neurological disorder for everything you can think of. Every subjective experience you've ever had is connected to the brain, and there are people with deficits for it.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
then why are you ever scared? cant you just tell yourself it's only chemicals and it's not real and there's no reason to be afraid?
I guess it's just called "Fear Recognition" impairment, deficit or dysfunction. Caused by damage to the amygdala. The case I know about was from birth though. Must have been a teratogen or mutation that affected amygdala functionality.
Shhhhhhh....Ahnimus hasn't yet figured out that science lacks the ability to assess the value to the information he has has. Value is subjective. One must rely on their personal value system in order to determine value.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
angelica writes beautifully and is beautiful
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
yes i am, but its only allowing my true feelings to come out
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
then i'm your man
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
plus, i'm listening to "gtf" so i'm in a really good mood right now.
he's...
flyin'....
whoaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...
get me back to hawaii, asap.
You don't stop by MYspace anymore, though!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
noted.
i'll be by your myspace in minutes
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
ditto.
would you two cut this love affair out of the bbs? i swear, there's enough oxytocin in this thread for even ahnimus to feel a little affectionate.
hey, i've got some oxycontin for you too. they are pills with oxygen in them, coach gave them to me so i wouldn't get incontinent.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
It's accurate (somewhat) to say that the brain "gives rise" to consciousness. It makes it sound like transcending, but it's not. Consciousness is kind of embedded in the brain. Existing within it.
A person has a thought; where did it come from? The brain. The brain is objective. Brain -> Thought, Object -> Subject.
As an example. If you watch Christof Koch's lectures. He as much says so. He's an expert on the visual cognitive system. He explains this as the process; Photon simutuli -> Retina -> Visual Cortex -> V1, V2/Pareital Lobe -> Frontal Lobe. A person has a Retinal deficit; they can't see, but can visual objects subjectively. A person has damage to the visual cortex; can't see, but can visualize subjectively. A person has damage to specific neurons in V1, V2; can't see, can't visualize subjectively. Some people can't perceive motion, the rest of the visual system works, but they can't visualize it. It's called the Neural Correlates of Consciousness. Prof. Koch is careful to directly link V1 and V2 to conscious awareness, but stongly implies it anyway.
Let's claim that the frontal lobe is where "logic" occurs and the pareital lobe plays no part in this hypothesis. If V1 and V2 are where conscious visual awareness occurs and the logic occurs afterwards. What does that mean? Our subjective opinions are subject to logic? No. Because we don't make opinions about sight with sight. We use a logic. If there is no logic in what "gives rise" to our awareness, then what is there? When we have a memory, neurons fire electrical signals down their axons or dendrites to make chemical synapses with another neuron causing them to fire. This happens all the time. It's very logical. Two associated memories through, a commonality will fire together, when one of them is being recalled. Synaptic plasticity, Hebbian theory. More logic that controls our memory <-> emotion connection.
Some field theories make an attempt to explain the Subjective <-> Objective interaction, but they fall short. Conscious Electromagnetic Information (CEMI) field theory, says that the electrical synapses in the brain cause an electromagnetic field, I don't dispute that at all. CEMI field theory claims that this field has the ability to interact with junctions before they close. This falls short in a few ways. The EM field doesn't last very long and is extremely low voltage insufficient to stimulate the junction. The other way, I think it falls short is that stimulating the junction a second time will only produce the same effect it did the first time. The EM field, K+ and NA+ are just natural cause and effect of the universe. If we could just constantly reuse energy we would never have to eat to resupply it. The used energy dissolves into tiny electrons. The same way we use energy when we walk or run. They probably travel through our cranium and escape into the universe to become hydrogen or something.
So, I don't really see how anything subjective could be entirely beyond explanation. We are talking about consciousness. It's a difficult thing. There is only one logical explanation for where it comes from and everything about it is logical. Love is clearly explained through several chemical interactions and olfactory receptions over time. I'm not mathematician but you can imagine when you add seratonin, vasopressin, testosterone, estrogen, oxytocin, oestregen, norepinephrine and dopamine together, one tiny variation in any level can produce a different feeling. However, it's all very logical, it will be simulated on a computer if not being done already.
You will find this underlying order or logic with any emotion or subjective thought. It's the nature of the universe... or just my twisted opinion..