God vs Logic

Ahnimus
Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
edited August 2006 in A Moving Train
I am a big fan of logic, it explains a lot.

Just a recap on the ID logic
"A watch is complicated therefore it must have been created [by humans]"
"So therefore since humans are so complicated they must have been created [by god]"
"So therefore god is so complicated it must have been created..."

I read a really good logic arguement the other day about god being perfect.
If god was perfect why did it create an imperfect reality, with imperfect inhabitants and imperfect habitats?
If god is perfect, why did it create anything? That implies a desire or longing, which implies a void or imperfection.

Based on that, I can only assume that if their is such an entity it must be imperfect. There must also be alternate dimensions for it to reside and where are it's parents (following the ID logic)?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
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Comments

  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    The problem with your logic is that its boundaries are our extremely limited human knowledge and therefore can only understand things in those terms.

    I'm sure that cats or dogs try to understand the logic of humans and can't quite get it either.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    chiefojibwa wrote:
    what a weak argument...."our minds cannot simply fathom the concept of god"

    in other words, shut up and eat yer beans.

    It may be weak, but in my mind it's no weaker than essentially saying if human's can't understand it, it must not exist.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    chiefojibwa wrote:
    but, hey, as long as we both agree we don't really KNOW shit, then we're on the same page here.

    Bingo! That's all I'm really saying. I'm not arguing either side as much as trying to point out the contradiction of placing inordinate relevance to one or the other.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Abuskedti
    Abuskedti Posts: 1,917
    know1 wrote:
    The problem with your logic is that its boundaries are our extremely limited human knowledge and therefore can only understand things in those terms.

    I'm sure that cats or dogs try to understand the logic of humans and can't quite get it either.

    Cats and Dogs don't likely preach to each other about what Humans expect of them and why.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Ok, so logically speaking.

    The logic of god is beyond our logic as humans. In the common definition of god all that is god and god's actions and motives is beyond our comprehension. God defies everything we understand with our reasoned and logical thoughts. Hence god does not exist in any form within our understanding physically or logically.

    So, I have the choice to believe something that makes literally no sense to me or anyone else exists, or put it in the same catagory as the Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot.

    Does that sound about right?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Ok, so logically speaking.

    The logic of god is beyond our logic as humans. In the common definition of god all that is god and god's actions and motives is beyond our comprehension. God defies everything we understand with our reasoned and logical thoughts. Hence god does not exist in any form within our understanding physically or logically.

    So, I have the choice to believe something that makes literally no sense to me or anyone else exists, or put it in the same catagory as the Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot.

    Does that sound about right?
    Close ... you forgot to mention that you are not only to believe in it, but also do what it says!
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    I had a conversation with a highly religious fellow last week and I brought up these points.

    He argued that god is perfect and created man perfect in his image. However man chose to make an imperfect decision. To me that implies neither god nor man are perfect. However his interpretation is that men can be created perfect and not make perfect decisions. Because god's idea of a perfect being is one that can make mistakes.

    He actually got really upset I think and he was quite offended by my inquiry into this logic. He also stated that archealogists have uncovered hard physical evidence of god's existance. This turned out to be hebrew texts, so I mentioned the Sumerian texts that date back to 3000 B.C. many years before the hebrew ones and with very different beliefs. That made him more upset and attempted to locate online evidence of other findings to prove himself right.

    What astonishes me the most about it is that I am not sure if a god exists or not, due to lack of evidence and understanding. The history of religion leads me to suspect it was created by man and there is no such supreme entity. However, I continue to ask the questions and seak further knowledge, while this individual would not accept my logic or refutation of physical evidence and he actually became very offended.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • NCfan
    NCfan Posts: 945
    know1 wrote:
    It may be weak, but in my mind it's no weaker than essentially saying if human's can't understand it, it must not exist.

    Okay, this is what doesn't make sense to me....

    Why would God put us in a position to choose our destiny for all of eternity based on something we cannot even comprehend? We are not talking about a stroll in the park here, we're talking eternal damnation in a fiery pit! That is some pretty heavy shit....

    I just don't get it. Why would God take it personal and damn somebody to hell becuase they didn't believe in him..... becuase there is pretty much nothing to prove his existense? It's like we're all just supposed to have "faith". Doesn't make sense.

    Furthermore, it upsets me that God has chosen who he will burden with this choice. Hundreds of millions of people walked the earth before Jesus came. What happened to those people? Why were they not faced with this delima, yet all of us are? Where their lives not as valuable?
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    NCfan wrote:
    Okay, this is what doesn't make sense to me....

    Why would God put us in a position to choose our destiny for all of eternity based on something we cannot even comprehend? We are not talking about a stroll in the park here, we're talking eternal damnation in a fiery pit! That is some pretty heavy shit....

    I just don't get it. Why would God take it personal and damn somebody to hell becuase they didn't believe in him..... becuase there is pretty much nothing to prove his existense? It's like we're all just supposed to have "faith". Doesn't make sense.

    Furthermore, it upsets me that God has chosen who he will burden with this choice. Hundreds of millions of people walked the earth before Jesus came. What happened to those people? Why were they not faced with this delima, yet all of us are? Where their lives not as valuable?
    It irks me that god supposedly gave us these wonderful brains, then demanded that we not use them. Stay away from that apple of knowledge! Here, chew on this plum of ignorance instead.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • JohnBriggs
    JohnBriggs Posts: 101
    For some people God = Logic so what would be the logic in saying God Vs. Logic? Just curious. I am agnostic so it makes no mind to me but when thinking logic there are so many variables to what one thinks is logical.
  • NCfan
    NCfan Posts: 945
    hippiemom wrote:
    It irks me that god supposedly gave us these wonderful brains, then demanded that we not use them. Stay away from that apple of knowledge! Here, chew on this plum of ignorance instead.

    LOL, exactly! It's like he gave us the ability to study, learn and experiment to realize what is true and what is false. Yet, when it comes to him, we are supposed to throw all that out the window and say "hey man, there is no possible way to even hint that God exist - but nevermind, put your complete destiny in his hands anyways."

    That's just fucked up logic.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    PJAmerica wrote:
    For some people God = Logic so what would be the logic in saying God Vs. Logic? Just curious. I am agnostic so it makes no mind to me but when thinking logic there are so many variables to what one thinks is logical.

    That is another example of cognitive dissonance. Battling thoughts between the existance of god and hence an explanation for our existance and the existance of the universe. It also gives people a great level of comfort in times of stress.

    The alternative to that belief is not as comforting. The belief that we exist purely by random events and when we die, we stop existing. Pain and suffering are just and fair in the reality without god, because there is no all-seeing fair and balanced judge of all existance.

    So, when those two thoughts conflict with each other in the human mind. Many choose to believe in the more comforting option. That's not logic though, that's just personal comfort.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Abuskedti
    Abuskedti Posts: 1,917
    ok I am going to switch sides.

    People don't claim to understand God. they obey his orders as presented in the Bible.

    God's power is love

    God is not perfect... only in comparison to us.. but perfection is not something God brags about nor does he spend much time at all talking about himself..

    He is our creator - and has some rules he'd like us to follow.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Abuskedti wrote:
    He is our creator - and has some rules he'd like us to follow.

    How did you come to this conclusion?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • JohnBriggs
    JohnBriggs Posts: 101
    Ahnimus wrote:
    That is another example of cognitive dissonance. Battling thoughts between the existance of god and hence an explanation for our existance and the existance of the universe. It also gives people a great level of comfort in times of stress.

    The alternative to that belief is not as comforting. The belief that we exist purely by random events and when we die, we stop existing. Pain and suffering are just and fair in the reality without god, because there is no all-seeing fair and balanced judge of all existance.

    So, when those two thoughts conflict with each other in the human mind. Many choose to believe in the more comforting option. That's not logic though, that's just personal comfort.


    So are you saying that because you believe that to be true that it is the most conforting method for you? What is your logic is wrong? What is what you define as logic is not the same for another? Does that make there logic which some call faith wrong? You must first disprove.
  • brainofPJ
    brainofPJ Posts: 2,361
    chiefojibwa wrote:
    i'm not saying i can't understand it.

    i'm saying, i don't see it, therefore it's not there.

    but, hey, as long as we both agree we don't really KNOW shit, then we're on the same page here.


    you can't see the wind either


    Esther's here and she's sick?

    hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    PJAmerica wrote:
    So are you saying that because you believe that to be true that it is the most conforting method for you? What is your logic is wrong? What is what you define as logic is not the same for another? Does that make there logic which some call faith wrong? You must first disprove.

    I don't consider logic a personal opinion. It's something that we all have, some choose to ignore it. In computer networking we have what we call a logical network and a physical network. The physical network is the way in which the various devices are physically connected and that can be known simply by looking at the network. A logical network is the way the devices behave with each other through the configuration. It may appear one way physically but behave a completely different way logically. No amount of personal opinon can change either the physical or logical processes of the network.

    Reality works the same way. Physically we are all products of our ancestors which includes our parents, grandparents etc.. that can be observed by our names and relatives which we openly associate ourselves with. Logically speaking [evolution] we are all decendants of the amoeba or a similar single-celled organism and that can be determined by looking at our configurations (DNA).

    God, exists in neither physical or logical realities. Until someone can provide reasoning to support the logical claim of god's existance, and logic that stands up to scrutiny as well as DNA. Physical evidence should be produced to prove god's existance in the physical reality, as irrefutable as our own existances.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Abuskedti
    Abuskedti Posts: 1,917
    Ahnimus wrote:
    How did you come to this conclusion?

    actually I don't defend this as a fact. However that is what the bible says. That is what some of our ancestors have encourages us to have faith in, and many do.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    brainofPJ wrote:
    you can't see the wind either

    We can feel the wind and even more, we can measure it!
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Abuskedti wrote:
    actually I don't defend this as a fact. However that is what the bible says. That is what some of our ancestors have encourages us to have faith in, and many do.

    That was before we knew about the dinosaurs and before we knew the world was flat. It was actually right after humankind chose to worship multiple gods. We had gods for everything and we very strongly believed it as real.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire

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