God vs Logic
Ahnimus
Posts: 10,560
I am a big fan of logic, it explains a lot.
Just a recap on the ID logic
"A watch is complicated therefore it must have been created [by humans]"
"So therefore since humans are so complicated they must have been created [by god]"
"So therefore god is so complicated it must have been created..."
I read a really good logic arguement the other day about god being perfect.
If god was perfect why did it create an imperfect reality, with imperfect inhabitants and imperfect habitats?
If god is perfect, why did it create anything? That implies a desire or longing, which implies a void or imperfection.
Based on that, I can only assume that if their is such an entity it must be imperfect. There must also be alternate dimensions for it to reside and where are it's parents (following the ID logic)?
Just a recap on the ID logic
"A watch is complicated therefore it must have been created [by humans]"
"So therefore since humans are so complicated they must have been created [by god]"
"So therefore god is so complicated it must have been created..."
I read a really good logic arguement the other day about god being perfect.
If god was perfect why did it create an imperfect reality, with imperfect inhabitants and imperfect habitats?
If god is perfect, why did it create anything? That implies a desire or longing, which implies a void or imperfection.
Based on that, I can only assume that if their is such an entity it must be imperfect. There must also be alternate dimensions for it to reside and where are it's parents (following the ID logic)?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
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I'm sure that cats or dogs try to understand the logic of humans and can't quite get it either.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
It may be weak, but in my mind it's no weaker than essentially saying if human's can't understand it, it must not exist.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Bingo! That's all I'm really saying. I'm not arguing either side as much as trying to point out the contradiction of placing inordinate relevance to one or the other.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Cats and Dogs don't likely preach to each other about what Humans expect of them and why.
The logic of god is beyond our logic as humans. In the common definition of god all that is god and god's actions and motives is beyond our comprehension. God defies everything we understand with our reasoned and logical thoughts. Hence god does not exist in any form within our understanding physically or logically.
So, I have the choice to believe something that makes literally no sense to me or anyone else exists, or put it in the same catagory as the Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot.
Does that sound about right?
He argued that god is perfect and created man perfect in his image. However man chose to make an imperfect decision. To me that implies neither god nor man are perfect. However his interpretation is that men can be created perfect and not make perfect decisions. Because god's idea of a perfect being is one that can make mistakes.
He actually got really upset I think and he was quite offended by my inquiry into this logic. He also stated that archealogists have uncovered hard physical evidence of god's existance. This turned out to be hebrew texts, so I mentioned the Sumerian texts that date back to 3000 B.C. many years before the hebrew ones and with very different beliefs. That made him more upset and attempted to locate online evidence of other findings to prove himself right.
What astonishes me the most about it is that I am not sure if a god exists or not, due to lack of evidence and understanding. The history of religion leads me to suspect it was created by man and there is no such supreme entity. However, I continue to ask the questions and seak further knowledge, while this individual would not accept my logic or refutation of physical evidence and he actually became very offended.
Okay, this is what doesn't make sense to me....
Why would God put us in a position to choose our destiny for all of eternity based on something we cannot even comprehend? We are not talking about a stroll in the park here, we're talking eternal damnation in a fiery pit! That is some pretty heavy shit....
I just don't get it. Why would God take it personal and damn somebody to hell becuase they didn't believe in him..... becuase there is pretty much nothing to prove his existense? It's like we're all just supposed to have "faith". Doesn't make sense.
Furthermore, it upsets me that God has chosen who he will burden with this choice. Hundreds of millions of people walked the earth before Jesus came. What happened to those people? Why were they not faced with this delima, yet all of us are? Where their lives not as valuable?
LOL, exactly! It's like he gave us the ability to study, learn and experiment to realize what is true and what is false. Yet, when it comes to him, we are supposed to throw all that out the window and say "hey man, there is no possible way to even hint that God exist - but nevermind, put your complete destiny in his hands anyways."
That's just fucked up logic.
That is another example of cognitive dissonance. Battling thoughts between the existance of god and hence an explanation for our existance and the existance of the universe. It also gives people a great level of comfort in times of stress.
The alternative to that belief is not as comforting. The belief that we exist purely by random events and when we die, we stop existing. Pain and suffering are just and fair in the reality without god, because there is no all-seeing fair and balanced judge of all existance.
So, when those two thoughts conflict with each other in the human mind. Many choose to believe in the more comforting option. That's not logic though, that's just personal comfort.
People don't claim to understand God. they obey his orders as presented in the Bible.
God's power is love
God is not perfect... only in comparison to us.. but perfection is not something God brags about nor does he spend much time at all talking about himself..
He is our creator - and has some rules he'd like us to follow.
How did you come to this conclusion?
So are you saying that because you believe that to be true that it is the most conforting method for you? What is your logic is wrong? What is what you define as logic is not the same for another? Does that make there logic which some call faith wrong? You must first disprove.
you can't see the wind either
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
I don't consider logic a personal opinion. It's something that we all have, some choose to ignore it. In computer networking we have what we call a logical network and a physical network. The physical network is the way in which the various devices are physically connected and that can be known simply by looking at the network. A logical network is the way the devices behave with each other through the configuration. It may appear one way physically but behave a completely different way logically. No amount of personal opinon can change either the physical or logical processes of the network.
Reality works the same way. Physically we are all products of our ancestors which includes our parents, grandparents etc.. that can be observed by our names and relatives which we openly associate ourselves with. Logically speaking [evolution] we are all decendants of the amoeba or a similar single-celled organism and that can be determined by looking at our configurations (DNA).
God, exists in neither physical or logical realities. Until someone can provide reasoning to support the logical claim of god's existance, and logic that stands up to scrutiny as well as DNA. Physical evidence should be produced to prove god's existance in the physical reality, as irrefutable as our own existances.
actually I don't defend this as a fact. However that is what the bible says. That is what some of our ancestors have encourages us to have faith in, and many do.
We can feel the wind and even more, we can measure it!
That was before we knew about the dinosaurs and before we knew the world was flat. It was actually right after humankind chose to worship multiple gods. We had gods for everything and we very strongly believed it as real.
You will also have to conform to your own definition of logic and provide reasoning to support the claim of logical thinking. Let em remind you I am very open minded and I do not abide by or live by terms of God but I am not close minded to in the extent that I cannot accept it as a possibility and use what some like to call logic as a way to dismiss it either. I hope you get what I am explaining here. If not then your logic would prove to fail you.
I understand you, I think we are on the same page. But logically speaking, if there is absolutely noothing to support something's existance, then logically it doesn't exist. It may still exist and we may uncover some truth. But until that is apparent pigs can't fly.
Logic is a basis of thought or argument and a state of thought in reality but then we could debate reality as well. IN essence the idea behind logic is more theory of thought without resounding fact to what it defines..
Logic (from ancient Greek λόγος (logos), originally meaning the word, or what is spoken, but coming to mean thought or reason) is most often said to be the study of arguments, although the exact definition of logic is a matter of controversy amongst philosophers. However the subject is grounded, the task of the logician is the same: to advance an account of valid and fallacious inference to allow one to distinguish good from bad arguments.
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from postings such as this one, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.
1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual cleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
I don't think that the educated thinkers of the time were so sure they were real - if they were - they wouldn't have written so much that allows them to be real - and yet do absolutely nothing.
The bible is the wisdom of the years packaged to sell.
You bring up some good points - and it is a tougher and tougher sell as time passes.
Faith is a personal thing. You don't have to believe every word of the bible to be fact in order to have faith. You don't even have to read the bible. God can be a handy guy to have around to talk to. And comforting to know he has the power to help and to protect and give you eternal life.
--God either exists, or He does not exist.
--You either believe in God, or you do no believe in Him.
If you DO NOT Believe in God and God DOES exist...
then you are in big trouble and go to Hell. Score, -1
If you DO NOT Believe in God and God DOES NOT exist...
then you are right... big deal. It's a wash, score +0
Total points = -1
OR
If you DO Believe in God and God Does exist...
then you are right and are rewarded with Heaven. Score, +1
If you DO Believe in God and God DOES NOT exist...
but, maybe the belief in God has helped you through some tough times. Score, +1/2
Total points = +1 1/2
-1 is less than +1.5...
Therefore it is better, logically, to believe in God.
...
He couldn't answer my response that using that logic, your belief in God is a 'Just in case' or 'Covering your ass' reason to believe... and God, all seeing and all knowing, would know this was your reason. Would He be okay with this? And what kind of half-ass God would He be if He did?
Hail, Hail!!!
I've asked that same question so many times and have never gotten a clear response.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I don't think my cats try to figure anything out... other than how to get the cat nip out of that plastic container.
I also don't think they know they are going to die and worry about behaving a certain way in order to get to cat heaven. They may understand death as it comes to them... which explains why they want to be in your arms when they die... but, i just don't think they believe in anything other than thing that exist in their physical Universe.
And cats and dogs react to us... they only know that they will get beat is they crap on our pillows but, I don't think they worry about us condemning them to an eternity of torment in some metaphysical realm of being.
Hail, Hail!!!
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/anselm/