I read a really good logic arguement the other day about god being perfect.
If god was perfect why did it create an imperfect reality, with imperfect inhabitants and imperfect habitats?
If god is perfect, why did it create anything? That implies a desire or longing, which implies a void or imperfection.
God can not be perfect. He created Man in his own image did he not?
as we all know, Man is far from perfect. therefore it is logical to say that God him/herself can not be perfect. right??
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Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from postings such as this one, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them. .
*Sigh* Okay friend, since you are so eager to learn, I have taken the time to try and answer the "questions" you have, or at least provide links for you to follow up on. I hope I will be of some help...
1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? .
Is there a real question here? Or are you just confused about the OT sacrificial system? Or maybe you're just trying to be funny, or both...
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual cleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. .
"The core ideas around which Leviticus develops are the holy character of God & the will of God for ISRAEL'S HOLINESS" (MacArthur). In other words, the laws were meant to ensure Israel's holiness and purity before a holy God.
The laws, such as the above law that you make light of, are served as basic sanitary guidelines to follow. What is shocking/peculiar about that?
4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? .
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? .
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) .
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
I think you need to study a little bit on your own, especially about whether or not Christians are under Mosaic Law. I would say we are under Grace (Rom. 6:14), not the law, which is clearly taught in the New Testament.. you know, the whole other half of the Bible you forgot to mention.
God can not be perfect. He created Man in his own image did he not?
as we all know, Man is far from perfect. therefore it is logical to say that God him/herself can not be perfect. right??
Wrong.
God did create man in his own image (Gen. 1:27), and also created Adam perfect and most importantly free of sin. It was his disobediance in the Garden of Eden that led to the imperfect, perhaps "depraved" state you see now.
Maybe someone could post it, there is no deffinate link to that section of the article and the rest of it seems to twist reality to prepare the mind for something absurd.
It is a conceptual truth (or, so to speak, true by definition) that God is a being than which none greater can be imagined (i.e., the greatest possible being that can be imagined).
God exists as an idea in the mind.
A being that exists as an idea in the mind and in reality is, other things being equal, greater than a being that exists only as an idea in the mind.
Thus, if God exists only as an idea in the mind, then we can imagine something that is greater than God (i.e., a greatest possible being that does exist).
But we cannot imagine something that is greater than God (for it is a contradiction to suppose that we can imagine a being greater than the greatest possible being that can be imagined.)
Wrong.
God did create man in his own image (Gen. 1:27), and also created Adam perfect and most importantly free of sin. It was his disobediance in the Garden of Eden that led to the imperfect, perhaps "depraved" state you see now.
Adam wasn't perfect. He was ignorant. So by that rationale God himself is ignorant. Or just vindictive. If God had been more compassionate, he would have explained things to Adam and perhaps the "depraved" state we now find ourselves in would not exist. Every parent knows that you can not just tell a child not to do something. They require an explanation as to why they are not allowed. Do as i say, not as i do, does not work.
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God can not be perfect. He created Man in his own image did he not?
as we all know, Man is far from perfect. therefore it is logical to say that God him/herself can not be perfect. right??
Yea, exactly. But even if god did not create man identical to him, the fact that he created anything, implies to me an imperfection. We created watches because we aren't perfect and don't always know what time it is unless we have a watch.
It's fascinating to think that intelligence in it's most perfect form and with ulitmate power of reality would aspire to create something so far from perfect with very little control over reality. Then say to them you must follow these rules, knowing completely that they would fail repeatedly through all time. Then sentence them to non-existence or hell for eternity. Meanwhile those that follow his rule spend eternity in heaven. Where? What? What exactly does a person do in heave for eternity? Is it an eternal orgasm? Does that get boring? Is there like little communities? Is it a collective like the borg? Do men get 72 virgins? What do the women get?
Also, if god is not perfect then we have to ask ourselves, how perfect is god? Is god lying to us? Does god really have ultimate control? Are there other gods? Is god just an alien lifeform taking advantage of an infant planet? What do we know about god that we can provide any evidence or insight outside of the historical accounts of the bible? If we put god on trial in a modern court, what happens?
I can agree to disagree. However, religion is a major obstacle that as a terrestrial race we need to overcome. It affects our politics and moral decision making. Affects our schools. We all know that a childs brain is like a sponge and anything we teach them will get soaked up. Our brains actually change according to our experiences, they remap themselves, and that gets more tightly wound with age. That's why older folks are always set in their ways, while youth are open to new ideas and perspectives. Science class is about exploring the unknown with an analytical forumla seperating fact from bullshit and looking at various perspectives that work. Evolution is a perspective that is supported by many facts and has always worked going forward. As with all scientific fact it's potentially fallable. In the case it doesn't work there is new evidence to support usually a slightly different perspective. Such is the case with pluto / planet problem. Creationism doesn't fit that formula, it has literally nothing logical or physical to support it, at all. It's an interesting belief, I'll say that, just don't laugh at people who believe aliens. Their belief has more logic and physical evidence supporting it.
Anyway, done for now. Friede, Liebe und kein Stress!
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Adam wasn't perfect. He was ignorant. So by that rationale God himself is ignorant. Or just vindictive. If God had been more compassionate, he would have explained things to Adam and perhaps the "depraved" state we now find ourselves in would not exist. Every parent knows that you can not just tell a child not to do something. They require an explanation as to why they are not allowed. Do as i say, not as i do, does not work.
God clearly warned Adam not to eat the fruit, but He and Eve did so anyway. How exactly do you think Adam was ignorant of a situation he was warned of?
It is a conceptual truth (or, so to speak, true by definition) that God is a being than which none greater can be imagined (i.e., the greatest possible being that can be imagined).
God exists as an idea in the mind.
A being that exists as an idea in the mind and in reality is, other things being equal, greater than a being that exists only as an idea in the mind.
Thus, if God exists only as an idea in the mind, then we can imagine something that is greater than God (i.e., a greatest possible being that does exist).
But we cannot imagine something that is greater than God (for it is a contradiction to suppose that we can imagine a being greater than the greatest possible being that can be imagined.)
Therefore, God exists.
Until your brain dies, then it doesn't matter what you can imagine. I agree, all of our realities exist only within our minds. Some people break down and get dementia. So therefore when our brains die, reality doesn't exist in our minds.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
God clearly warned Adam not to eat the fruit, but He and Eve did so anyway. How exactly do you think Adam was ignorant of a situation he was warned of?
He was ignorant in that he believed what he was told. God said do not eat from the tree of knowledge or even touch it, lest ye die. Adam's ignorance came in not knowing. Not knowing anything really. Not good. Not evil. Living blissfully in the Garden.
God surely had to know that the snake would tempt Eve and then Adam. So why did he allow the snake access to the Garden. or is it just that women are insidious creatures and man has no will or restraint of his own?
Adam blamed Eve for his eating the fruit and Eve in turn blamed the snake. Neither took responsibility for their actions.
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Yea, exactly. But even if god did not create man identical to him, the fact that he created anything, implies to me an imperfection. We created watches because we aren't perfect and don't always know what time it is unless we have a watch. !
God doesn't need us the same way we need watches. By that I mean God did not need us in order to function. Prove me wrong from scrpiture.
It's fascinating to think that intelligence in it's most perfect form and with ulitmate power of reality would aspire to create something so far from perfect with very little control over reality. Then say to them you must follow these rules, knowing completely that they would fail repeatedly through all time. Then sentence them to non-existence or hell for eternity.!
What is far from perfect? Explain. Why do I not have control over reality? In an earlier post I gave you an argument which has stood up for centuries, one which through reason alone justifies belief in a god
Meanwhile those that follow his rule spend eternity in heaven. Where? What? What exactly does a person do in heave for eternity? Is it an eternal orgasm? Does that get boring? Is there like little communities? Is it a collective like the borg? Do men get 72 virgins? What do the women get?
Do want a biblical response as to what we are going to do in heaven? I can give you one if you like...
Also, if god is not perfect then we have to ask ourselves, how perfect is god? Is god lying to us? Does god really have ultimate control? Are there other gods? Is god just an alien lifeform taking advantage of an infant planet? What do we know about god that we can provide any evidence or insight outside of the historical accounts of the bible? If we put god on trial in a modern court, what happens?
Uh, I think the argument all along is that God is perfect. If he was not I would probably have the same questions you just raised.
I can agree to disagree. However, religion is a major obstacle that as a terrestrial race we need to overcome. It affects our politics and moral decision making. Affects our schools. We all know that a childs brain is like a sponge and anything we teach them will get soaked up. Our brains actually change according to our experiences, they remap themselves, and that gets more tightly wound with age. That's why older folks are always set in their ways, while youth are open to new ideas and perspectives. Science class is about exploring the unknown with an analytical forumla seperating fact from bullshit and looking at various perspectives that work. Evolution is a perspective that is supported by many facts and has always worked going forward. As with all scientific fact it's potentially fallable. In the case it doesn't work there is new evidence to support usually a slightly different perspective. Such is the case with pluto / planet problem. Creationism doesn't fit that formula, it has literally nothing logical or physical to support it, at all. It's an interesting belief, I'll say that, just don't laugh at people who believe aliens. Their belief has more logic and physical evidence supporting it.
Yes, religion has played a major role in many areas, sometimes for the better, alot of times for the worse. But then again, some humanistic and completley secular worldviews haven't fared to well either, especially when it comes to politics (Stalin, Pol Pot, & so on).
Are you saying that since you created 4 lives (children, I assume) you therefore are perfect? Seems like imperfect logic to me.
no. but it sure makes me powerful in the knowledge that i can create life. knowing i can sustain,grow and nurture and give birth while shedding blood. yet when man sheds blood all he delivers is death.
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no. but it sure makes me powerful in the knowledge that i can create life. knowing i can sustain,grow and nurture and give birth while shedding blood. yet when man sheds blood all he delivers is death.
Until your brain dies, then it doesn't matter what you can imagine. I agree, all of our realities exist only within our minds. Some people break down and get dementia. So therefore when our brains die, reality doesn't exist in our minds.
No, the conclusion reached by the argument is that God must exist outside the mind.
both camps have very illogical ideas on their side as i will prove;
a) God created millions of people who never heard the gospel but will nonetheless be subjected to judgement based on their belief or otherwise on this offer.
b) This big bang occured billions of years ago, which somehow resulted in the amazing lifeforms we have today. There is no hard physical evidence to support (eg "missing links") this but we believe it to be true.
See neither camp is "logical"..........
The wind is blowing cold
Have we lost our way tonight?
Have we lost our hope to sorrow?
Feels like were all alone
Running further from what’s right
And there are no more heroes to follow
God doesn't need us the same way we need watches. By that I mean God did not need us in order to function. Prove me wrong from scrpiture.
Scripture means very little to me. I consider it an early attempt at recorded history. Similar to other ancient texts. At the time of the Assyrians and Sumerians in ancient Mesopotamia they believed in aliens and documented it on stones. Perhaps that is proof of alien life. The watch analogy is simple, we only create something because it serves us a purpose. Why would a perfect being be any different?
What is far from perfect? Explain. Why do I not have control over reality? In an earlier post I gave you an argument which has stood up for centuries, one which through reason alone justifies belief in a god
Everything is imperfect. The entire universe is ultimately going to change and destroy us. Poverty, abuse, natural disasters, crime. Those things aren't perfect. You do not have control over reality because you exist within it. Your level of control is 90% your ability to use your hands. That century old arguement, thinking something could possibly exist doesn't mean it does. A giant chicken could be floating through space five million kilometers away, heading for earth to eat us. It's not going to happen no matter how much I want it to.
Do want a biblical response as to what we are going to do in heaven? I can give you one if you like...
Please, I missed that part or forgot it maybe. I vaguely remember it being a war against evil. An eternal war? Hey not much different on earth.
Uh, I think the argument all along is that God is perfect. If he was not I would probably have the same questions you just raised.
Can't be perfect.
Yes, religion has played a major role in many areas, sometimes for the better, alot of times for the worse. But then again, some humanistic and completley secular worldviews haven't fared to well either, especially when it comes to politics (Stalin, Pol Pot, & so on).
It hasn't had as long to develope. It really has nothing to do with religion when you are talking about that kind of stuff. Politics and religion don't go good together, those same conclusions can be met through logic.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I wouldn't go so far as to say that Stalin and Pol pot were humanistic. Secular? yes. But, they were secular for the reason that religion has a tendency to inspire hope out of thin air, which can be a dangerous prospect for any dictatorship.
Humanism cannot be practiced without secularism, but secularism does not always involve humanism.
Why would God put us in a position to choose our destiny for all of eternity based on something we cannot even comprehend? We are not talking about a stroll in the park here, we're talking eternal damnation in a fiery pit! That is some pretty heavy shit....
I just don't get it. Why would God take it personal and damn somebody to hell becuase they didn't believe in him..... becuase there is pretty much nothing to prove his existense? It's like we're all just supposed to have "faith". Doesn't make sense.
Furthermore, it upsets me that God has chosen who he will burden with this choice. Hundreds of millions of people walked the earth before Jesus came. What happened to those people? Why were they not faced with this delima, yet all of us are? Where their lives not as valuable?
See...it has to be all or nothing with some of you. I never said that I feel God doesn't let us understand anything. What I'm saying is that it's conceivable to me that there are some items of God's "logic" that might be beyond our ability to understand or comprehend. That's only natural if there is a God. If God were just as smart or powerful as humans, there would be no need for God.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I don't consider logic a personal opinion. It's something that we all have, some choose to ignore it. In computer networking we have what we call a logical network and a physical network. The physical network is the way in which the various devices are physically connected and that can be known simply by looking at the network. A logical network is the way the devices behave with each other through the configuration. It may appear one way physically but behave a completely different way logically. No amount of personal opinon can change either the physical or logical processes of the network.
Reality works the same way. Physically we are all products of our ancestors which includes our parents, grandparents etc.. that can be observed by our names and relatives which we openly associate ourselves with. Logically speaking [evolution] we are all decendants of the amoeba or a similar single-celled organism and that can be determined by looking at our configurations (DNA).
God, exists in neither physical or logical realities. Until someone can provide reasoning to support the logical claim of god's existance, and logic that stands up to scrutiny as well as DNA. Physical evidence should be produced to prove god's existance in the physical reality, as irrefutable as our own existances.
This serves my point exactly. Here is someone that is blind to the fact that human's really don't know squat, and is calling for God to prove himself in means that we simple beings cannot refute.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
This serves my point exactly. Here is someone that is blind to the fact that human's really don't know squat, and is calling for God to prove himself in means that we simple beings cannot refute.
why is it that we humans are always simple beings and God's machinations are outside our realm of understanding and comprehension.
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This serves my point exactly. Here is someone that is blind to the fact that human's really don't know squat, and is calling for God to prove himself in means that we simple beings cannot refute.
why is it that we humans are always simple beings and God's machinations are outside our realm of understanding and comprehension.
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Scripture means very little to me. I consider it an early attempt at recorded history. Similar to other ancient texts. At the time of the Assyrians and Sumerians in ancient Mesopotamia they believed in aliens and documented it on stones. Perhaps that is proof of alien life. The watch analogy is simple, we only create something because it serves us a purpose. Why would a perfect being be any different?.
You implied in your earlier post that since God created us, it must be a sign of imperfection, the same way we humans need watches. I was pointing out that God does not need us the same way a human needs a watch.
As far as scripture goes, I assumed we were talking in the context of the Judeo-Christian God, in which case I was asking for an example from either the old or new testaments which would support your claim that God needs us the same way I need a watch.
Everything is imperfect. The entire universe is ultimately going to change and destroy us. Poverty, abuse, natural disasters, crime. Those things aren't perfect. You do not have control over reality because you exist within it. Your level of control is 90% your ability to use your hands. .
Yes, I would agree everything is imperfect, both man and earth (Is. 24:5-6). This is a result of the fall.
That century old arguement, thinking something could possibly exist doesn't mean it does. A giant chicken could be floating through space five million kilometers away, heading for earth to eat us. It's not going to happen no matter how much I want it to.
You mean the ontological argument? Given your response here I'm not sure you totally understand just what it says.
Please, I missed that part or forgot it maybe. I vaguely remember it being a war against evil. An eternal war? Hey not much different on earth.
Eternal war? The war I think the war you refer to was over before it began (Rev 20:7-10). As for what heaven will be like, Rev. 21 is a good place to start.
Politics and religion don't go good together, those same conclusions can be met through logic.
I would tend to agree, but at the same time it is ignorant to say people's belief systems, whether it centers around a God or not, do not influence their actions/ choices in politics.
God, exists in neither physical or logical realities. Until someone can provide reasoning to support the logical claim of god's existance, and logic that stands up to scrutiny as well as DNA. Physical evidence should be produced to prove god's existance in the physical reality, as irrefutable as our own existances.
What exactly is a "logical reality"? As far as the reasoning goes, I have given you one argument for the existence of God, the ontological argument.
Since when does something have to be backed up by DNA evidence to be logically possible? Case in point, it is logically possible for my dog sugar to evolve into those poor chipmunks she chases around in my yard. Why is this not a logical possibility? Although it is physically impossible, it is in no way logically impossible.
Now you can say that existence of God is physically impossible, but that would be an entirely different debate. The original post was about God & Logic...
This debate has always intrigued me. I'm all about science and logic, but I have to confess that I have always had a vague feeling that there is 'something' beyond the surface of reality. I think the the 'ultimate' questions lie beyond the scope of ogic.
What kind of logic or reasoning are we talking about exactly? Deductive? Inductive? Obviously, deductive reasoning (a cat is a cat and everything either is or isn't a cat) is only as good as the premise on which it is founded and it is generally agreed that logio-deductive reasoning is probably the most secure form of reasoning. However, this use of logic has been questioned or challenged by some, ie, quantum logic. The rule that something can't both be and not be something is thrown out the window. I'm thinking quantum physics would not be what it is today if scientists had confined themselves to rigid deductive reasoning. What about inductive reasoning? This type of reasoning starts out on set of given facts or assumptions, a process of generalizations. It is based on previous experience, ie the prediction that the sun will rise since it has risen on queue every day so far in our experience. But one has to concede that conclusions arrived at inductively are never absolutely secure in the logical manner of deductive conclusions, even though common sense is based on induction. I believe human intellectual endeavors have not always proceeded through deductive or inductive reasoning. I think great advances in science and humanity in general rests with free ranging imaginative leaps or inspiration. This is where I come to an impasse where logic is concerned. Is inspiration a consequence of of normal reasoning which takes place deep in the subconscious or do ideas have a sort of independant existence discovered by a receptive mind? (That question is for you Ahnimus). If the former is true, then how did such an ability evolve?
It is a fact that people hold beliefs that pertain to God that might be preceived as irrational. That they are held irrationally does not mean they are wrong. Maybe there is a route to knowledge that transcends human reasoning? Maybe due to the fact we are reasoning beings, we just perceive ourselves in an oasis of apparent rationality? Maybe the world is not rational, but if it is, what is the origin of that rationality?
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Logic can only take you as far as knowledge and knowledge is limited. Science is limited by knowledge as well, how many scientific theories have been proving wrong or absurd over the years?
So, logic is not the only answer to questions. Is philosphy a science? What about literature? But don't these areas teach us as well?
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no. but it sure makes me powerful in the knowledge that i can create life. knowing i can sustain,grow and nurture and give birth while shedding blood. yet when man sheds blood all he delivers is death.
Let me preface this by saying that i have three sons of my own. i was present throughout the conception, gestation, and birth of all three. Absolutely amazing. i have an immeasureable amount of respect for my wife (and women in general) for the role they play in propogating the species.
That being said, i must point out that you created nothing on your own, if in fact you created it at all. A man was necessary. Half of the DNA is his. You seem to imply that men are completely unneeded and unimportant in this process. i find that a tad ridiculous. i might also ask did you actually create anything? Or, did you just provide the material?
Again i don't mean to take away from what you have accomplished.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Comments
God can not be perfect. He created Man in his own image did he not?
as we all know, Man is far from perfect. therefore it is logical to say that God him/herself can not be perfect. right??
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
*Sigh* Okay friend, since you are so eager to learn, I have taken the time to try and answer the "questions" you have, or at least provide links for you to follow up on. I hope I will be of some help...
Is there a real question here? Or are you just confused about the OT sacrificial system? Or maybe you're just trying to be funny, or both...
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.html
I'm sure you will enjoy the read
"The core ideas around which Leviticus develops are the holy character of God & the will of God for ISRAEL'S HOLINESS" (MacArthur). In other words, the laws were meant to ensure Israel's holiness and purity before a holy God.
The laws, such as the above law that you make light of, are served as basic sanitary guidelines to follow. What is shocking/peculiar about that?
*See above article*
Another link for you:http://www.carm.org/diff/Exod20_8.htm
See my above remarks
I think you need to study a little bit on your own, especially about whether or not Christians are under Mosaic Law. I would say we are under Grace (Rom. 6:14), not the law, which is clearly taught in the New Testament.. you know, the whole other half of the Bible you forgot to mention.
Anyway, hope I have helped...
It's actually perfectly logical that people have different opinions about the unknown.
Wrong.
God did create man in his own image (Gen. 1:27), and also created Adam perfect and most importantly free of sin. It was his disobediance in the Garden of Eden that led to the imperfect, perhaps "depraved" state you see now.
Here it is, taken from here: http://www.iep.utm.edu/o/ont-arg.htm#H2
It is a conceptual truth (or, so to speak, true by definition) that God is a being than which none greater can be imagined (i.e., the greatest possible being that can be imagined).
God exists as an idea in the mind.
A being that exists as an idea in the mind and in reality is, other things being equal, greater than a being that exists only as an idea in the mind.
Thus, if God exists only as an idea in the mind, then we can imagine something that is greater than God (i.e., a greatest possible being that does exist).
But we cannot imagine something that is greater than God (for it is a contradiction to suppose that we can imagine a being greater than the greatest possible being that can be imagined.)
Therefore, God exists.
Adam wasn't perfect. He was ignorant. So by that rationale God himself is ignorant. Or just vindictive. If God had been more compassionate, he would have explained things to Adam and perhaps the "depraved" state we now find ourselves in would not exist. Every parent knows that you can not just tell a child not to do something. They require an explanation as to why they are not allowed. Do as i say, not as i do, does not work.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Yea, exactly. But even if god did not create man identical to him, the fact that he created anything, implies to me an imperfection. We created watches because we aren't perfect and don't always know what time it is unless we have a watch.
It's fascinating to think that intelligence in it's most perfect form and with ulitmate power of reality would aspire to create something so far from perfect with very little control over reality. Then say to them you must follow these rules, knowing completely that they would fail repeatedly through all time. Then sentence them to non-existence or hell for eternity. Meanwhile those that follow his rule spend eternity in heaven. Where? What? What exactly does a person do in heave for eternity? Is it an eternal orgasm? Does that get boring? Is there like little communities? Is it a collective like the borg? Do men get 72 virgins? What do the women get?
Also, if god is not perfect then we have to ask ourselves, how perfect is god? Is god lying to us? Does god really have ultimate control? Are there other gods? Is god just an alien lifeform taking advantage of an infant planet? What do we know about god that we can provide any evidence or insight outside of the historical accounts of the bible? If we put god on trial in a modern court, what happens?
I can agree to disagree. However, religion is a major obstacle that as a terrestrial race we need to overcome. It affects our politics and moral decision making. Affects our schools. We all know that a childs brain is like a sponge and anything we teach them will get soaked up. Our brains actually change according to our experiences, they remap themselves, and that gets more tightly wound with age. That's why older folks are always set in their ways, while youth are open to new ideas and perspectives. Science class is about exploring the unknown with an analytical forumla seperating fact from bullshit and looking at various perspectives that work. Evolution is a perspective that is supported by many facts and has always worked going forward. As with all scientific fact it's potentially fallable. In the case it doesn't work there is new evidence to support usually a slightly different perspective. Such is the case with pluto / planet problem. Creationism doesn't fit that formula, it has literally nothing logical or physical to support it, at all. It's an interesting belief, I'll say that, just don't laugh at people who believe aliens. Their belief has more logic and physical evidence supporting it.
Anyway, done for now. Friede, Liebe und kein Stress!
God clearly warned Adam not to eat the fruit, but He and Eve did so anyway. How exactly do you think Adam was ignorant of a situation he was warned of?
Until your brain dies, then it doesn't matter what you can imagine. I agree, all of our realities exist only within our minds. Some people break down and get dementia. So therefore when our brains die, reality doesn't exist in our minds.
He was ignorant in that he believed what he was told. God said do not eat from the tree of knowledge or even touch it, lest ye die. Adam's ignorance came in not knowing. Not knowing anything really. Not good. Not evil. Living blissfully in the Garden.
God surely had to know that the snake would tempt Eve and then Adam. So why did he allow the snake access to the Garden. or is it just that women are insidious creatures and man has no will or restraint of his own?
Adam blamed Eve for his eating the fruit and Eve in turn blamed the snake. Neither took responsibility for their actions.
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God doesn't need us the same way we need watches. By that I mean God did not need us in order to function. Prove me wrong from scrpiture.
What is far from perfect? Explain. Why do I not have control over reality? In an earlier post I gave you an argument which has stood up for centuries, one which through reason alone justifies belief in a god
Do want a biblical response as to what we are going to do in heaven? I can give you one if you like...
Uh, I think the argument all along is that God is perfect. If he was not I would probably have the same questions you just raised.
Yes, religion has played a major role in many areas, sometimes for the better, alot of times for the worse. But then again, some humanistic and completley secular worldviews haven't fared to well either, especially when it comes to politics (Stalin, Pol Pot, & so on).
Good night
and i do not need God in order to function.
plus there's the added bonus of me having created four lives. therefore i am perfect.
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Okay...but that has little relevance to the point I made.
Are you saying that since you created 4 lives (children, I assume) you therefore are perfect? Seems like imperfect logic to me.
you said,
"God doesn't need us the same way we need watches. By that I mean God did not need us in order to function."
i was merely pointing out that just as God does not require us to function, i do not require God in order for me to function. that is all.
no. but it sure makes me powerful in the knowledge that i can create life. knowing i can sustain,grow and nurture and give birth while shedding blood. yet when man sheds blood all he delivers is death.
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Indeed. Well said
No, the conclusion reached by the argument is that God must exist outside the mind.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I should have added "as well" after that statement. Of course Anselm thought God existed in the mind of the perciever. Sorry for the confusion.
a) God created millions of people who never heard the gospel but will nonetheless be subjected to judgement based on their belief or otherwise on this offer.
b) This big bang occured billions of years ago, which somehow resulted in the amazing lifeforms we have today. There is no hard physical evidence to support (eg "missing links") this but we believe it to be true.
See neither camp is "logical"..........
Have we lost our way tonight?
Have we lost our hope to sorrow?
Feels like were all alone
Running further from what’s right
And there are no more heroes to follow
So what are we becoming?
Where did we go wrong?
Scripture means very little to me. I consider it an early attempt at recorded history. Similar to other ancient texts. At the time of the Assyrians and Sumerians in ancient Mesopotamia they believed in aliens and documented it on stones. Perhaps that is proof of alien life. The watch analogy is simple, we only create something because it serves us a purpose. Why would a perfect being be any different?
Everything is imperfect. The entire universe is ultimately going to change and destroy us. Poverty, abuse, natural disasters, crime. Those things aren't perfect. You do not have control over reality because you exist within it. Your level of control is 90% your ability to use your hands. That century old arguement, thinking something could possibly exist doesn't mean it does. A giant chicken could be floating through space five million kilometers away, heading for earth to eat us. It's not going to happen no matter how much I want it to.
Please, I missed that part or forgot it maybe. I vaguely remember it being a war against evil. An eternal war? Hey not much different on earth.
Can't be perfect.
It hasn't had as long to develope. It really has nothing to do with religion when you are talking about that kind of stuff. Politics and religion don't go good together, those same conclusions can be met through logic.
Humanism cannot be practiced without secularism, but secularism does not always involve humanism.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
See...it has to be all or nothing with some of you. I never said that I feel God doesn't let us understand anything. What I'm saying is that it's conceivable to me that there are some items of God's "logic" that might be beyond our ability to understand or comprehend. That's only natural if there is a God. If God were just as smart or powerful as humans, there would be no need for God.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
This serves my point exactly. Here is someone that is blind to the fact that human's really don't know squat, and is calling for God to prove himself in means that we simple beings cannot refute.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
why is it that we humans are always simple beings and God's machinations are outside our realm of understanding and comprehension.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
why is it that we humans are always simple beings and God's machinations are outside our realm of understanding and comprehension.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
You implied in your earlier post that since God created us, it must be a sign of imperfection, the same way we humans need watches. I was pointing out that God does not need us the same way a human needs a watch.
As far as scripture goes, I assumed we were talking in the context of the Judeo-Christian God, in which case I was asking for an example from either the old or new testaments which would support your claim that God needs us the same way I need a watch.
Yes, I would agree everything is imperfect, both man and earth (Is. 24:5-6). This is a result of the fall.
You mean the ontological argument? Given your response here I'm not sure you totally understand just what it says.
Eternal war? The war I think the war you refer to was over before it began (Rev 20:7-10). As for what heaven will be like, Rev. 21 is a good place to start.
Now that's what I call reasoning....
I would tend to agree, but at the same time it is ignorant to say people's belief systems, whether it centers around a God or not, do not influence their actions/ choices in politics.
What exactly is a "logical reality"? As far as the reasoning goes, I have given you one argument for the existence of God, the ontological argument.
Since when does something have to be backed up by DNA evidence to be logically possible? Case in point, it is logically possible for my dog sugar to evolve into those poor chipmunks she chases around in my yard. Why is this not a logical possibility? Although it is physically impossible, it is in no way logically impossible.
Now you can say that existence of God is physically impossible, but that would be an entirely different debate. The original post was about God & Logic...
What kind of logic or reasoning are we talking about exactly? Deductive? Inductive? Obviously, deductive reasoning (a cat is a cat and everything either is or isn't a cat) is only as good as the premise on which it is founded and it is generally agreed that logio-deductive reasoning is probably the most secure form of reasoning. However, this use of logic has been questioned or challenged by some, ie, quantum logic. The rule that something can't both be and not be something is thrown out the window. I'm thinking quantum physics would not be what it is today if scientists had confined themselves to rigid deductive reasoning. What about inductive reasoning? This type of reasoning starts out on set of given facts or assumptions, a process of generalizations. It is based on previous experience, ie the prediction that the sun will rise since it has risen on queue every day so far in our experience. But one has to concede that conclusions arrived at inductively are never absolutely secure in the logical manner of deductive conclusions, even though common sense is based on induction. I believe human intellectual endeavors have not always proceeded through deductive or inductive reasoning. I think great advances in science and humanity in general rests with free ranging imaginative leaps or inspiration. This is where I come to an impasse where logic is concerned. Is inspiration a consequence of of normal reasoning which takes place deep in the subconscious or do ideas have a sort of independant existence discovered by a receptive mind? (That question is for you Ahnimus). If the former is true, then how did such an ability evolve?
It is a fact that people hold beliefs that pertain to God that might be preceived as irrational. That they are held irrationally does not mean they are wrong. Maybe there is a route to knowledge that transcends human reasoning? Maybe due to the fact we are reasoning beings, we just perceive ourselves in an oasis of apparent rationality? Maybe the world is not rational, but if it is, what is the origin of that rationality?
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
So, logic is not the only answer to questions. Is philosphy a science? What about literature? But don't these areas teach us as well?
Let me preface this by saying that i have three sons of my own. i was present throughout the conception, gestation, and birth of all three. Absolutely amazing. i have an immeasureable amount of respect for my wife (and women in general) for the role they play in propogating the species.
That being said, i must point out that you created nothing on your own, if in fact you created it at all. A man was necessary. Half of the DNA is his. You seem to imply that men are completely unneeded and unimportant in this process. i find that a tad ridiculous. i might also ask did you actually create anything? Or, did you just provide the material?
Again i don't mean to take away from what you have accomplished.