Out of wedlock births hit new high in US

redrock wrote:

Pardon? I think you read my post wrong. I am responding to the fact that it was said that it may be better for parents to stay married for the sake of the children and continue to live together even if the marriage ended. I am saying that it is not so as the children will pick up their parents tension and yes.. it could cause problems for the kids wellbeing (worked with kids from such families)

I DID NOT say that children from divorced parents are messed up kids with relationship problems. On the contrary... my post would suggest that if a marriage ends, it needs to end.

PS - after you read my post again (referring to the post I was answering), do I get a little apology for being so quick to jump at my throat?

Ummm...I cna;t find that post, but I'm not going to look really hard, so I'll just say, sorry.

cincybearcat wrote:

Ummm...I cna;t find that post, but I'm not going to look really hard, so I'll just say, sorry.

Post #93... apology accepted

know1 wrote:

Maybe it's just over your head.

Do you really think that kids are statistically better off being raised by single parents? Because all I'm saying is that I feel their odds are better if the parents are married.

We weren't talking single parents but non-married committed households.....

The whole discussion started with the fact that statistics showed a mega rise in numbers of children born out of wedlock was not mainly due to 'stupid women getting knocked up' but....

"The overall rise reflects the burgeoning number of people who are putting off marriage or living together without getting married."

cincybearcat wrote:

I still don't see where you are talking about 'staying together for the kids', etc.

Oh well.

Because I was responding to Stace's post (quoted) and "Just because marriages end doesn't mean its not better for a child to be raised by married parents. - ie staying together for the kids....

But no need to dwell....

I wanted to butt into this debate, although it seems my points are made for me at this point. My observations/opinions on the matter at hand:

*Married or not married is largely irrelevant. It's not like it's hard to get a divorce these days and many many do. Relationships are now more unstable, and people are to alrger degree probe to walk away from a bad or below-par situation. However in a context where people to a less degree engages in marriage for the habit of it, the ones getting married may be more geared towards doing it long-term. The percentage that doesn't divorce that is. When it comes to the kids, whether their parents signed a piece of paper is irrelevant to their situation. So the problem isn't people not getting married, the problem would be that relationships between people have become more fleeting and changable.

* When it comes to marriage rates, you can discount the marriages to stop town gossip and discrimination, the ones where one party were totally economic dependant on the other, and the fact that it is no longer viewed unnormal or particularly wrong not to be married while co-habiting. Those getting married today are usually religious to some degree or at least kinda traditional. Or they just want the whole party of it. And these often divorce too, as statistics show. On the whole, people are also less accepting towards mere adequacy or "ok" in their love-lives. People wants to realize themselves more these days, not just tag along with the traditions as much as before. The age of "full marriage" in the populace is forever gone. But then again, marriage is for those who inject some meaning into it.

I am for neutral laws when it comes to partnerships or whatever, so that everyone is treated the same by the state, and then it's up to the individual whether they want a church ceremony on top or whatever. For official purposes marriage is just a piece of paper.

*Dont wail about the decline of marriage, if your real beef is bad parenting. Bad parenting is bad parenting. A wedding certificate or not changes nothing of it.

*What is the alternative to the current "messy" situation of non-marriage etc? What can be done? Reinstate bans on non-married peopole to live together? A public chaperone service that controls that there's no funny-business and un-authorized sex going on? Any political action in this field will be frought with uglyness the way I see it. This is a private issue if there ever is.

* When it comes to kids' reactions, they are prone to be much worse in an all-married environment, than in an environment where they are far from alone. The stigma will decline and disappear over time, as it becomes more commonplace. Dysfunctional families will always be there, and they still will have to deal with it. And some will come off pretty badly there in any case. That parents must work together and lift their gaze a bit up from their own feet when cleaning up a break, certainly. They should be responsible about it.

well, that's me anyway.

Peace
Dan

OutOfBreath wrote:

I wanted to butt into this debate, although it seems my points are made for me at this point. My observations/opinions on the matter at hand:

*Married or not married is largely irrelevant. It's not like it's hard to get a divorce these days and many many do. Relationships are now more unstable, and people are to alrger degree probe to walk away from a bad or below-par situation. However in a context where people to a less degree engages in marriage for the habit of it, the ones getting married may be more geared towards doing it long-term. The percentage that doesn't divorce that is. When it comes to the kids, whether their parents signed a piece of paper is irrelevant to their situation. So the problem isn't people not getting married, the problem would be that relationships between people have become more fleeting and changable.

* When it comes to marriage rates, you can discount the marriages to stop town gossip and discrimination, the ones where one party were totally economic dependant on the other, and the fact that it is no longer viewed unnormal or particularly wrong not to be married while co-habiting. Those getting married today are usually religious to some degree or at least kinda traditional. Or they just want the whole party of it. And these often divorce too, as statistics show. On the whole, people are also less accepting towards mere adequacy or "ok" in their love-lives. People wants to realize themselves more these days, not just tag along with the traditions as much as before. The age of "full marriage" in the populace is forever gone. But then again, marriage is for those who inject some meaning into it.

I am for neutral laws when it comes to partnerships or whatever, so that everyone is treated the same by the state, and then it's up to the individual whether they want a church ceremony on top or whatever. For official purposes marriage is just a piece of paper.

*Dont wail about the decline of marriage, if your real beef is bad parenting. Bad parenting is bad parenting. A wedding certificate or not changes nothing of it.

*What is the alternative to the current "messy" situation of non-marriage etc? What can be done? Reinstate bans on non-married peopole to live together? A public chaperone service that controls that there's no funny-business and un-authorized sex going on? Any political action in this field will be frought with uglyness the way I see it. This is a private issue if there ever is.

* When it comes to kids' reactions, they are prone to be much worse in an all-married environment, than in an environment where they are far from alone. The stigma will decline and disappear over time, as it becomes more commonplace. Dysfunctional families will always be there, and they still will have to deal with it. And some will come off pretty badly there in any case. That parents must work together and lift their gaze a bit up from their own feet when cleaning up a break, certainly. They should be responsible about it.

well, that's me anyway.

Peace
Dan

hear, hear...

know1 wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/11/21/unmarried.births.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

I think this is pathetic. Are people really this self-centered? And please do not tell me that abortion is the good alternative, because that isn't working either.

What know1 is saying is that it's generally better for babies to born to good supportive, stable, married parents, as opposed to unmarried ones. Sure there are good unmarried parents as well as shitty married ones, I don't think he's speaking in terms of 100% absolutes here.

The idea here is that one gets married, is a good spouse/parent, and stays married. Hence, a stable environment. If someone says that's a bad thing, then well, I don't know what to tell them.

The self-centeredness of Western society where folks don't want to bother with raising kids is a huge reason why radical militant Islam could take over the world simply by breeding. Europeans hardly have children anymore, and the US is heading in that direction.

OutOfBreath wrote:

I wanted to butt into this debate, although it seems my points are made for me at this point. My observations/opinions on the matter at hand:

*Married or not married is largely irrelevant. It's not like it's hard to get a divorce these days and many many do. Relationships are now more unstable, and people are to alrger degree probe to walk away from a bad or below-par situation. However in a context where people to a less degree engages in marriage for the habit of it, the ones getting married may be more geared towards doing it long-term. The percentage that doesn't divorce that is. When it comes to the kids, whether their parents signed a piece of paper is irrelevant to their situation. So the problem isn't people not getting married, the problem would be that relationships between people have become more fleeting and changable.

* When it comes to marriage rates, you can discount the marriages to stop town gossip and discrimination, the ones where one party were totally economic dependant on the other, and the fact that it is no longer viewed unnormal or particularly wrong not to be married while co-habiting. Those getting married today are usually religious to some degree or at least kinda traditional. Or they just want the whole party of it. And these often divorce too, as statistics show. On the whole, people are also less accepting towards mere adequacy or "ok" in their love-lives. People wants to realize themselves more these days, not just tag along with the traditions as much as before. The age of "full marriage" in the populace is forever gone. But then again, marriage is for those who inject some meaning into it.

I am for neutral laws when it comes to partnerships or whatever, so that everyone is treated the same by the state, and then it's up to the individual whether they want a church ceremony on top or whatever. For official purposes marriage is just a piece of paper.

*Dont wail about the decline of marriage, if your real beef is bad parenting. Bad parenting is bad parenting. A wedding certificate or not changes nothing of it.

*What is the alternative to the current "messy" situation of non-marriage etc? What can be done? Reinstate bans on non-married peopole to live together? A public chaperone service that controls that there's no funny-business and un-authorized sex going on? Any political action in this field will be frought with uglyness the way I see it. This is a private issue if there ever is.

* When it comes to kids' reactions, they are prone to be much worse in an all-married environment, than in an environment where they are far from alone. The stigma will decline and disappear over time, as it becomes more commonplace. Dysfunctional families will always be there, and they still will have to deal with it. And some will come off pretty badly there in any case. That parents must work together and lift their gaze a bit up from their own feet when cleaning up a break, certainly. They should be responsible about it.

well, that's me anyway.

Peace
Dan

i love sociologists!

and i think the bad parenting is a neglected angle.

fanch75 wrote:

The self-centeredness of Western society where folks don't want to bother with raising kids is a huge reason why radical militant Islam could take over the world simply by breeding.

Fanch... that's for another thread. And by the way... as long as the catholics and other staunch 'christians' are there, there will be 'breeding'. No fear...

fanch75 wrote:

With all due respect, this is a symptom of the same problem which is the title of this very thread.

To be clear, I'm not faulting anyone for walking away from a "bad" or "faulty" situation. I'm faulting the selfish or short-sighted folks who make it bad or faulty in the first place.

Sure. But then the problem is the fleeting nature of relationships today. (And I can go on about individualization theory in this vein, but ain't gonna here) Not that people aren't getting married. A solution would not be to have more people marry... It's a question on focusing on the real issue at hand, not a symptom associated with it.

Peace
Dan