You have my blessing
Seeing as you are a fan, would you be interested in some over-prized merch signed by yours truly? I have handy the epic story "Shopping list" that I can exclusively sign for you for, oh, 100$. Make that 95, in a today-only offer!
Appreciate the compliments v-gin.
Peace
Dan
oh, i have plenty of shopping lists here, thank you. there's one in my pocket right now even. but i'll pay for an autographed copy of that post, or many of your other marriage-minded posts.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
seeing as how you yourself couldnt wait for your wedding night to start sticking it in, you're in no position to talk. people have sex. it's ridiculous to say "women should stop spreading their legs" and then at the same tacitly condone men doing whatever it takes to get laid... ghb, pressure, intoxication, harassment, or whatever else. in the eyes of many like you, guys are supposed to have sex as much as possible, and women are supposed to not like it and only put up with it cos they want a baby from their husband.
i notice that neither you or stace is capable or willing to admit that maybe guys shouldn't be fucking everyone they can or should be held accountable for it. you both respond to my point with snide, sarcastic remarks about how WOMEN are the ones who should be responsible. guys... well, we wouldnt want to cut into their fun now would we?
Careful, Tiger. You don't know me like that. In fact you know very little to absolutely nothing about me at all. Because i offered in another thread, in another forum, that my wife and i had sexual relations prior to our wedding provides you absolutely no foundation for the pure b.s your flinging in my direction here. First of all, i believe the thread your pulling this personal information about me from was a thread regarding men who refused to date women who wouldn't have sex with them in which i did not speak exactly favorably of such men, and was ripped apart for it. In my comments made on this board i have always held men equally responsible for the role they play in unwanted pregnancies. You know that as well as i do. Your accusations of me as misogynist and sexist are completely without warrant.If you must know, though we had sex, my wife and i (by the way, she is the first and ONLY woman i have had sex with) were married nearly five years before we were pregnant the first time. It was planned. In damn near twelve years of marriage we've been pregnant 3 times, and have 3 children. You do the math. My comments here are not "sarcastic", "snide" or disrespectful to anyone, and i am in position to make them.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Great point. When it comes to babies the men are never mentioned unless they are "deadbeat dads". I wonder how many men that are considered that didn't actually want to be fathers but the woman "chose" to make him one.
That's because the woman is ultimately responsible for her body, ex. what goes in it. The same logic is applied to pro-choice advocates. The woman should have a right to an abortion, because it's HER body. You can't have it one way and not the other...
Most people would agree with the idea that a loving, nurturing and stable two-parent household is the optimal situation for raising children. I think that certain arguements in this thread go off the rails because they seem to imply that marriage is synonymous with a stable home environment, when there is ample evidence to the contrary.
I also don't see what's so wrong with someone who chooses to raise a child in a single parent household. Lots of single parent households I know of are a lot less fucked up than some of the "happy families" I know.
"Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
That's because the woman is ultimately responsible for her body, ex. what goes in it. The same logic is applied to pro-choice advocates. The woman should have a right to an abortion, because it's HER body. You can't have it one way and not the other...
What about after the baby is born? That's what I mean. If Sue and John are dating and she gets pregnant and he wants her to have an abortion but she won't then why are his options to be a) obligated to become a parent or b) a deadbeat dad. Society forces the man to become a father whether he wants to or not. The mother isn't in that situation because its her body.
Most people would agree with the idea that a loving, nurturing and stable two-parent household is the optimal situation for raising children. I think that certain arguements in this thread go off the rails because they seem to imply that marriage is synonymous with a stable home environment, when there is ample evidence to the contrary.
That's it in a nutshell. Marriage does not equal commitment, and commitment does not equal marriage. Married does not equate functional and good, and not married does not mean dysfunctional and bad.
And I will also say (generally, not directed at milhouse) that the problems people are talking about won't get better/worse by looking at marriage in itself. Marriage rates can be a sketchy and rough indicator of social integration (This is not uncontested btw). If marriage rates are going down, something is underlying it. Since people don't change from being married, the married status or lack of can not be the root of the problem. The problem is lacking social integration, less community between people, less stability and less certainty overall, and in personal relations.
To put it simply, a marriage can be a gesture of commitment, but the commitment comes first, and the marriage is merely the formal expression of it for those so inclined.
And for the record, I think most people have similar images of how an ideal family situation will look like. I think there is general consensus on child-rearing. But let's look at the problem, not something that is at best a reflection of it. Talk about lacking integration, the fragmented relations and so on, and dont jump on a high horse implying that if people would just buck up and marry, there wouldn't be a problem. Marriage solves or creates no problems in that respect. We're talking about relations, and a ceremony and a piece of paper alters little in that respect.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Careful, Tiger. You don't know me like that. In fact you know very little to absolutely nothing about me at all. Because i offered in another thread, in another forum, that my wife and i had sexual relations prior to our wedding provides you absolutely no foundation for the pure b.s your flinging in my direction here. First of all, i believe the thread your pulling this personal information about me from was a thread regarding men who refused to date women who wouldn't have sex with them in which i did not speak exactly favorably of such men, and was ripped apart for it. In my comments made on this board i have always held men equally responsible for the role they play in unwanted pregnancies. You know that as well as i do. Your accusations of me as misogynist and sexist are completely without warrant.If you must know, though we had sex, my wife and i (by the way, she is the first and ONLY woman i have had sex with) were married nearly five years before we were pregnant the first time. It was planned. In damn near twelve years of marriage we've been pregnant 3 times, and have 3 children. You do the math. My comments here are not "sarcastic", "snide" or disrespectful to anyone, and i am in position to make them.
fair enough. in that case, im sorry to have jumped the gun. it simply enrages me when people seem to act like women who have sex should get the smack laid down on them for it and don't seem to care one way or the other what happens to the guy in the situation. when people talk about responsibility in sex it almost always comes from people opposed to contraception who basically feel women should stop spreading their legs for any guy and it's a double standard i loathe. it seemed to be creeping into this thread big time and that was getting to me.
i believe i was with you on that other thread in any case. i am for responsible sex. i just find too many of the people talking about it have very narrow and one-sided views as to what that means.
. when people talk about responsibility in sex it almost always comes from people opposed to contraception who basically feel women should stop spreading their legs for any guy
.
i've had a vasectomy, so i'm obviously not opposed to contraception
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
That's it in a nutshell. Marriage does not equal commitment, and commitment does not equal marriage. Married does not equate functional and good, and not married does not mean dysfunctional and bad.
And I will also say (generally, not directed at milhouse) that the problems people are talking about won't get better/worse by looking at marriage in itself. Marriage rates can be a sketchy and rough indicator of social integration (This is not uncontested btw). If marriage rates are going down, something is underlying it. Since people don't change from being married, the married status or lack of can not be the root of the problem. The problem is lacking social integration, less community between people, less stability and less certainty overall, and in personal relations.
To put it simply, a marriage can be a gesture of commitment, but the commitment comes first, and the marriage is merely the formal expression of it for those so inclined.
And for the record, I think most people have similar images of how an ideal family situation will look like. I think there is general consensus on child-rearing. But let's look at the problem, not something that is at best a reflection of it. Talk about lacking integration, the fragmented relations and so on, and dont jump on a high horse implying that if people would just buck up and marry, there wouldn't be a problem. Marriage solves or creates no problems in that respect. We're talking about relations, and a ceremony and a piece of paper alters little in that respect.
Peace
Dan
i agree. marriage or no marriage, what concerns me most about this issue is the apparent unwillingness of anyone to commit to anything that will require work or in any way cut into their long term ability to do whatever they please without regard to anyone else. there seems to be no sense of community or social responsibility anymore... and it's not just about sex. it's about neighbors that never speak, businessmen who never shake hands on a deal, people with cell phones glued to their ear to shut out the real people around them, ipods on at full volume so they dont have to talk to the people next to them on the bus, things like that.
marriage and relationships is just one aspect of the sad fact that anymore, it seems like people just dont have time for relationships with other people anymore. we're all too wrapped up in work and getting to the store to have lunch with a friend. it's not healthy. technology has put the world at our fingertips and work ethics have made us a stunningly wealthy society, but the cost seems to be we are all more isolated than ever and our words are increasingly small and fractured and unhappy...
i've had a vasectomy, so i'm obviously not opposed to contraception
im glad you're not one of the idiots then. the ones who seem to think that if we refuse to provide birth control to anyone under 21 and outlaw abortion... suddenly teens will stop having sex and getting pregnant. i always wonder what those people are smokin.
when people talk about responsibility in sex it almost always comes from people opposed to contraception who basically feel women should stop spreading their legs for any guy and it's a double standard i loathe.
That's why I was confused..my comment about that was over the top on purpose. Trust me.. I'm the last person thats going to say women shouldn't have sex but men should etc..
im glad you're not one of the idiots then. the ones who seem to think that if we refuse to provide birth control to anyone under 21 and outlaw abortion... suddenly teens will stop having sex and getting pregnant. i always wonder what those people are smokin.
My mom's view on it when I was young..well and still is for my niece is that giving me birth control is "condoning" my actions and saying its okay for me to have sex. Now, I'm the first to admit that my mom is prudish and out of touch with reality when it comes to sex but that was her reasoning. Very bad reasoning too.
My mom's view on it when I was young..well and still is for my niece is that giving me birth control is "condoning" my actions and saying its okay for me to have sex. Now, I'm the first to admit that my mom is prudish and out of touch with reality when it comes to sex but that was her reasoning. Very bad reasoning too.
yeah, that's the sort of thing i dont go for. seems like quite a stretch to me.
marriage and relationships is just one aspect of the sad fact that anymore, it seems like people just dont have time for relationships with other people anymore. we're all too wrapped up in work and getting to the store to have lunch with a friend. it's not healthy.
one reason i don't want to get married is that i value my numerous other relationships too much .
i'm confused about your post though. you say people don't have time for relationships anymore, but then you put down being wrapped up in work (which could contain relationships there) and going out with a friend (which is definitely a relationship). you mentioned talking on the phone, and i understand your technology reference a little, but that person most likely isn't talking to himself or herself. there's another relationship most likely.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
one reason i don't want to get married is that i value my numerous other relationships too much .
i'm confused about your post though. you say people don't have time for relationships anymore, but then you put down being wrapped up in work (which could contain relationships there) and going out with a friend (which is definitely a relationship). you mentioned talking on the phone, and i understand your technology reference a little, but that person most likely isn't talking to himself or herself. there's another relationship most likely.
my point was that so many of us get so wrapped up in work, we spend our entire day at the computer. we cannot take time to eat lunch with a friend... we eat lunch at our desk instead. we jabber on our cellphones all day and while, yes, it is talking, there is no substitute for face-to-face contact. we've allowed technology to let us literally "phone in" our relationships. no effort to actually see them. i dont have time off to sit down and eat lunch, so ill call you for 5 minutes a week on the way to work cos that's all i can spare for you. that's what im getting at. my point was we DONT go out with friends, there's no time anymore.
and yes, you can have relationships at work. but they are still tied up in work. and i feel strongly that humans were not meant to ahve their entire life and everything in it determined by their work. i plan to work to support my life, i dont live to work.
my point was that so many of us get so wrapped up in work, we spend our entire day at the computer. we cannot take time to eat lunch with a friend... we eat lunch at our desk instead. we jabber on our cellphones all day and while, yes, it is talking, there is no substitute for face-to-face contact. we've allowed technology to let us literally "phone in" our relationships. no effort to actually see them. i dont have time off to sit down and eat lunch, so ill call you for 5 minutes a week on the way to work cos that's all i can spare for you. that's what im getting at. my point was we DONT go out with friends, there's no time anymore.
and yes, you can have relationships at work. but they are still tied up in work. and i feel strongly that humans were not meant to ahve their entire life and everything in it determined by their work. i plan to work to support my life, i dont live to work.
ah, i misread the part about lunch. i see what you're saying. i'm not sure i really agree on a correlation to a societal level about people not having time for relationships though. i think relationships are being redefined, but i say there are plenty of people in relationships, they just might be different than before (or at least being acknowledged).
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
Comments
oh, i have plenty of shopping lists here, thank you. there's one in my pocket right now even. but i'll pay for an autographed copy of that post, or many of your other marriage-minded posts.
cross the river to the eastside
thanks for the clarification.
cross the river to the eastside
sure...I guess my point is that even children raised by two married parents have issues...a reality that is often ignored in discussions like this...
Careful, Tiger. You don't know me like that. In fact you know very little to absolutely nothing about me at all. Because i offered in another thread, in another forum, that my wife and i had sexual relations prior to our wedding provides you absolutely no foundation for the pure b.s your flinging in my direction here. First of all, i believe the thread your pulling this personal information about me from was a thread regarding men who refused to date women who wouldn't have sex with them in which i did not speak exactly favorably of such men, and was ripped apart for it. In my comments made on this board i have always held men equally responsible for the role they play in unwanted pregnancies. You know that as well as i do. Your accusations of me as misogynist and sexist are completely without warrant.If you must know, though we had sex, my wife and i (by the way, she is the first and ONLY woman i have had sex with) were married nearly five years before we were pregnant the first time. It was planned. In damn near twelve years of marriage we've been pregnant 3 times, and have 3 children. You do the math. My comments here are not "sarcastic", "snide" or disrespectful to anyone, and i am in position to make them.
That's because the woman is ultimately responsible for her body, ex. what goes in it. The same logic is applied to pro-choice advocates. The woman should have a right to an abortion, because it's HER body. You can't have it one way and not the other...
I also don't see what's so wrong with someone who chooses to raise a child in a single parent household. Lots of single parent households I know of are a lot less fucked up than some of the "happy families" I know.
What about after the baby is born? That's what I mean. If Sue and John are dating and she gets pregnant and he wants her to have an abortion but she won't then why are his options to be a) obligated to become a parent or b) a deadbeat dad. Society forces the man to become a father whether he wants to or not. The mother isn't in that situation because its her body.
That's it in a nutshell. Marriage does not equal commitment, and commitment does not equal marriage. Married does not equate functional and good, and not married does not mean dysfunctional and bad.
And I will also say (generally, not directed at milhouse) that the problems people are talking about won't get better/worse by looking at marriage in itself. Marriage rates can be a sketchy and rough indicator of social integration (This is not uncontested btw). If marriage rates are going down, something is underlying it. Since people don't change from being married, the married status or lack of can not be the root of the problem. The problem is lacking social integration, less community between people, less stability and less certainty overall, and in personal relations.
To put it simply, a marriage can be a gesture of commitment, but the commitment comes first, and the marriage is merely the formal expression of it for those so inclined.
And for the record, I think most people have similar images of how an ideal family situation will look like. I think there is general consensus on child-rearing. But let's look at the problem, not something that is at best a reflection of it. Talk about lacking integration, the fragmented relations and so on, and dont jump on a high horse implying that if people would just buck up and marry, there wouldn't be a problem. Marriage solves or creates no problems in that respect. We're talking about relations, and a ceremony and a piece of paper alters little in that respect.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
fair enough. in that case, im sorry to have jumped the gun. it simply enrages me when people seem to act like women who have sex should get the smack laid down on them for it and don't seem to care one way or the other what happens to the guy in the situation. when people talk about responsibility in sex it almost always comes from people opposed to contraception who basically feel women should stop spreading their legs for any guy and it's a double standard i loathe. it seemed to be creeping into this thread big time and that was getting to me.
i believe i was with you on that other thread in any case. i am for responsible sex. i just find too many of the people talking about it have very narrow and one-sided views as to what that means.
i agree. marriage or no marriage, what concerns me most about this issue is the apparent unwillingness of anyone to commit to anything that will require work or in any way cut into their long term ability to do whatever they please without regard to anyone else. there seems to be no sense of community or social responsibility anymore... and it's not just about sex. it's about neighbors that never speak, businessmen who never shake hands on a deal, people with cell phones glued to their ear to shut out the real people around them, ipods on at full volume so they dont have to talk to the people next to them on the bus, things like that.
marriage and relationships is just one aspect of the sad fact that anymore, it seems like people just dont have time for relationships with other people anymore. we're all too wrapped up in work and getting to the store to have lunch with a friend. it's not healthy. technology has put the world at our fingertips and work ethics have made us a stunningly wealthy society, but the cost seems to be we are all more isolated than ever and our words are increasingly small and fractured and unhappy...
im glad you're not one of the idiots then. the ones who seem to think that if we refuse to provide birth control to anyone under 21 and outlaw abortion... suddenly teens will stop having sex and getting pregnant. i always wonder what those people are smokin.
That's why I was confused..my comment about that was over the top on purpose. Trust me.. I'm the last person thats going to say women shouldn't have sex but men should etc..
My mom's view on it when I was young..well and still is for my niece is that giving me birth control is "condoning" my actions and saying its okay for me to have sex. Now, I'm the first to admit that my mom is prudish and out of touch with reality when it comes to sex but that was her reasoning. Very bad reasoning too.
yeah, that's the sort of thing i dont go for. seems like quite a stretch to me.
one reason i don't want to get married is that i value my numerous other relationships too much
i'm confused about your post though. you say people don't have time for relationships anymore, but then you put down being wrapped up in work (which could contain relationships there) and going out with a friend (which is definitely a relationship). you mentioned talking on the phone, and i understand your technology reference a little, but that person most likely isn't talking to himself or herself. there's another relationship most likely.
cross the river to the eastside
my point was that so many of us get so wrapped up in work, we spend our entire day at the computer. we cannot take time to eat lunch with a friend... we eat lunch at our desk instead. we jabber on our cellphones all day and while, yes, it is talking, there is no substitute for face-to-face contact. we've allowed technology to let us literally "phone in" our relationships. no effort to actually see them. i dont have time off to sit down and eat lunch, so ill call you for 5 minutes a week on the way to work cos that's all i can spare for you. that's what im getting at. my point was we DONT go out with friends, there's no time anymore.
and yes, you can have relationships at work. but they are still tied up in work. and i feel strongly that humans were not meant to ahve their entire life and everything in it determined by their work. i plan to work to support my life, i dont live to work.
ah, i misread the part about lunch. i see what you're saying. i'm not sure i really agree on a correlation to a societal level about people not having time for relationships though. i think relationships are being redefined, but i say there are plenty of people in relationships, they just might be different than before (or at least being acknowledged).
cross the river to the eastside