What know1 is saying is that it's generally better for babies to born to good supportive, stable, married parents, as opposed to unmarried ones. Sure there are good unmarried parents as well as shitty married ones, I don't think he's speaking in terms of 100% absolutes here.
The idea here is that one gets married, is a good spouse/parent, and stays married. Hence, a stable environment. If someone says that's a bad thing, then well, I don't know what to tell them.
The self-centeredness of Western society where folks don't want to bother with raising kids is a huge reason why radical militant Islam could take over the world simply by breeding. Europeans hardly have children anymore, and the US is heading in that direction.
amen....
and...
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.....
Take me piece by piece..... Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
I disagree. People tend to have a lot more girlfriends/boyfriends than spouses. Marriage is an environment of stability.
Of course folks will point to divorce to fight my point, but again I say that divorce is a symptom of the same problem that is the title of this thread.
I dont see the relevancy to this. So what if you had 15 girlfriends before staying with one particular and finding that one desirable enough to breed with? The problem is not lack of marriage, which implies that some forced marriages would get all the problems out of the way. The problem, or issue, is way beyond marriage itself. People are still pretty monogamous, but relationships are more unstable, including marriages. The instability comes first, then the decline in marriage. Not the other way round. People aren't magically transformed by saying "I do" and signing the paper. They are still the people they are.
Hence, focusing on marriage exclusively is a side-track, and getting tied up with one of the symptoms, rather than looking at the entire picture.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
I dont see the relevancy to this. So what if you had 15 girlfriends before staying with one particular and finding that one desirable enough to breed with? The problem is not lack of marriage, which implies that some forced marriages would get all the problems out of the way. The problem, or issue, is way beyond marriage itself. People are still pretty monogamous, but relationships are more unstable, including marriages. The instability comes first, then the decline in marriage. Not the other way round. People aren't magically transformed by saying "I do" and signing the paper. They are still the people they are.
Hence, focusing on marriage exclusively is a side-track, and getting tied up with one of the symptoms, rather than looking at the entire picture.
Peace
Dan
i think you and fanch are saying the exact same thing... that people just dont take commitment as seriously as they once did, or that they're simply unwilling to commit to the extent they used to. and i think im going to die of shock that i am 100% on board with fanch on this one.
i think you and fanch are saying the exact same thing... that people just dont take commitment as seriously as they once did, or that they're simply unwilling to commit to the extent they used to. and i think im going to die of shock that i am 100% on board with fanch on this one.
I know we are saying almost the same. I just wanna get round the hang-up with marriage as something magical and mind-altering. I see the problem, or issue, (as I'm not completely sure it is such a bad thing in total) as going a lot deeper, and marriage being a mere indicator, and an uncertain one at that.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
i think you and fanch are saying the exact same thing... that people just dont take commitment as seriously as they once did, or that they're simply unwilling to commit to the extent they used to. and i think im going to die of shock that i am 100% on board with fanch on this one.
I was thinkign the same thing. I guess where I see marriage as the "lock" on commitment that it *should be*, it isn't anymore.
I'm going to go to an even higher tree-top level and again say that we in Western society have such relative plush, easy lives that we create new problems to stress out about.
On a side note, Judas Priest' "Eat Me Alive" just came on WEBN. That song rocks and makes me wanna go spray paint graffiti on my old high school.
I'm sorry.. what "solutions" are you referring to? What did I propose that places a huge burden on women and no idea for how to make men share in that burden? I'm seriously confused.
i may be confusing threads. i just think it's ridiculous that people want to work on stripping the options women have (health care, abortion, morning after pill, comprehensive sex ed) in an effort to force them to "be more responsible" without proposing any similar measures to hold men accountable. it reeks of old-fashioned oppression of women, making sure the baby is a huge ball and chain on them. if you're going to force people to take responsibility, why force a woman to bear the entire burden instead of focusing on forcing men to step up and share the burden? the measures proposed would essentially derail the lives of most women while not even slowing down the men. that's not right in my mind.
i dont like abortion and i dont think i could ever conscionably support it. but im not prepared to outlaw it until the people proposing such a ban can prove to me it wont leave women high and dry. cos usually they're the same people denying women access to birth control, keeping sex ed out of schools, and all sorts of similar measures of sexual intimidation. id like to see abortion become unecessary, not illegal. banning abortion is like treating the symptom, not the cause. it will only rear its head in other areas.
Because I was responding to Stace's post (quoted) and "Just because marriages end doesn't mean its not better for a child to be raised by married parents. - ie staying together for the kids....
What know1 is saying is that it's generally better for babies to born to good supportive, stable, married parents, as opposed to unmarried ones. Sure there are good unmarried parents as well as shitty married ones, I don't think he's speaking in terms of 100% absolutes here.
The idea here is that one gets married, is a good spouse/parent, and stays married. Hence, a stable environment. If someone says that's a bad thing, then well, I don't know what to tell them.
The self-centeredness of Western society where folks don't want to bother with raising kids is a huge reason why radical militant Islam could take over the world simply by breeding. Europeans hardly have children anymore, and the US is heading in that direction.
Thank you. I wish I could have said it so clearly.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I was thinkign the same thing. I guess where I see marriage as the "lock" on commitment that it *should be*, it isn't anymore.
I'm going to go to an even higher tree-top level and again say that we in Western society have such relative plush, easy lives that we create new problems to stress out about.
On a side note, Judas Priest' "Eat Me Alive" just came on WEBN. That song rocks and makes me wanna go spray paint graffiti on my old high school.
i agree with you. marriage certainly is not what it used to be. but marriage may be a dying institution in some sense. the underlying problem is still that people dont commit, in marriage or otherwise. it's like prescribing paxil to anyone who's sad. we all feel we should feel perfect all the time. suddenly, the passion in a relationship fades, and our feel good culture tells us we shouldn't have to WORK at a relationship, we should just leave and find one that's more exciting.
i may be confusing threads. i just think it's ridiculous that people want to work on stripping the options women have (health care, abortion, morning after pill, comprehensive sex ed) in an effort to force them to "be more responsible" without proposing any similar measures to hold men accountable. it reeks of old-fashioned oppression of women, making sure the baby is a huge ball and chain on them. if you're going to force people to take responsibility, why force a woman to bear the entire burden instead of focusing on forcing men to step up and share the burden? the measures proposed would essentially derail the lives of most women while not even slowing down the men. that's not right in my mind.
i dont like abortion and i dont think i could ever conscionably support it. but im not prepared to outlaw it until the people proposing such a ban can prove to me it wont leave women high and dry. cos usually they're the same people denying women access to birth control, keeping sex ed out of schools, and all sorts of similar measures of sexual intimidation. id like to see abortion become unecessary, not illegal. banning abortion is like treating the symptom, not the cause. it will only rear its head in other areas.
I never said women shouldn't have choices and I don't think sex ed should be kept to abstinence only. I said I don't like the term "woman's choice" but that doesn't mean that I want the government to ban abortions. I was pretty clear on that too. You keep talking about leaving women high and dry and my comments have always been that the men are kept out of the equation except to call them deadbeat dads. Cincy wanted to know why babies were born to single moms and not single moms and dads.. The only choice a man has when he gets a woman pregnant is to be obligated to the child or be called a deadbeat dad. Why is the decision to become a parent only the woman's right? Not whether they physically have a baby but to actually be a parent.
our feel good culture tells us we shouldn't have to WORK at a relationship, we should just leave and find one that's more exciting.
I'd go even further to describe it as a "feel good NOW culture." The whole fast food thing, pervasive throughout our entire culture. Folks in less fortunate countries would absolutely love to have our "problems" and have to work up to what we have.
I never said women shouldn't have choices and I don't think sex ed should be kept to abstinence only. I said I don't like the term "woman's choice" but that doesn't mean that I want the government to ban abortions. I was pretty clear on that too. You keep talking about leaving women high and dry and my comments have always been that the men are kept out of the equation except to call them deadbeat dads. Cincy wanted to know why babies were born to single moms and not single moms and dads.. The only choice a man has when he gets a woman pregnant is to be obligated to the child or be called a deadbeat dad. Why is the decision to become a parent only the woman's right? Not whether they physically have a baby but to actually be a parent.
Wow, I never thought of it from that perspective...
You know what? It's fine with me if people won't commit like they used to, but what isn't fine with me is that they still have kids. If you want to be selfish and uncommitted, DON'T HAVE CHILDREN. If anything is (or at least should be) a commitment, it's a child.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I know we are saying almost the same. I just wanna get round the hang-up with marriage as something magical and mind-altering. I see the problem, or issue, (as I'm not completely sure it is such a bad thing in total) as going a lot deeper, and marriage being a mere indicator, and an uncertain one at that.
Peace
Dan
i love this post so much i want to marry it.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
I never said women shouldn't have choices and I don't think sex ed should be kept to abstinence only. I said I don't like the term "woman's choice" but that doesn't mean that I want the government to ban abortions. I was pretty clear on that too. You keep talking about leaving women high and dry and my comments have always been that the men are kept out of the equation except to call them deadbeat dads. Cincy wanted to know why babies were born to single moms and not single moms and dads.. The only choice a man has when he gets a woman pregnant is to be obligated to the child or be called a deadbeat dad. Why is the decision to become a parent only the woman's right? Not whether they physically have a baby but to actually be a parent.
these are all very difficult questions and apparently ive got you confused with someone from the other thread cos i agree with all of those points. we need to totally rethink the way we approach these issues.
You know what? It's fine with me if people won't commit like they used to, but what isn't fine with me is that they still have kids. If you want to be selfish and uncommitted, DON'T HAVE CHILDREN. If anything is (or at least should be) a commitment, it's a child.
what shocks me about this statement is that there are a lot of people on here who would disagree with it and that is messed up. well said.
You know what? It's fine with me if people won't commit like they used to, but what isn't fine with me is that they still have kids. If you want to be selfish and uncommitted, DON'T HAVE CHILDREN. If anything is (or at least should be) a commitment, it's a child.
huh? does uncommitted = selfish? because that would totally make my day.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
I never said women shouldn't have choices and I don't think sex ed should be kept to abstinence only. I said I don't like the term "woman's choice" but that doesn't mean that I want the government to ban abortions. I was pretty clear on that too. You keep talking about leaving women high and dry and my comments have always been that the men are kept out of the equation except to call them deadbeat dads. Cincy wanted to know why babies were born to single moms and not single moms and dads.. The only choice a man has when he gets a woman pregnant is to be obligated to the child or be called a deadbeat dad. Why is the decision to become a parent only the woman's right? Not whether they physically have a baby but to actually be a parent.
You have my blessing
Seeing as you are a fan, would you be interested in some over-prized merch signed by yours truly? I have handy the epic story "Shopping list" that I can exclusively sign for you for, oh, 100$. Make that 95, in a today-only offer!
Appreciate the compliments v-gin.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
huh? does uncommitted = selfish? because that would totally make my day.
Within the context of having kids uncommitted = selfish. It's the height of narcisim to put your want to have a kid over the child's right to have a committed, active and loving mom and dad, under the same roof in a committed relationship.
If this is the model you tried but it didn't work out, fine. But I know far too many people who became single parents deliberately. I really have no time for people who are that selfish, or who think that father's are an unneeded in a child's life.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Comments
and...
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.....
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
Hence, focusing on marriage exclusively is a side-track, and getting tied up with one of the symptoms, rather than looking at the entire picture.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
i think you and fanch are saying the exact same thing... that people just dont take commitment as seriously as they once did, or that they're simply unwilling to commit to the extent they used to. and i think im going to die of shock that i am 100% on board with fanch on this one.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
I was thinkign the same thing. I guess where I see marriage as the "lock" on commitment that it *should be*, it isn't anymore.
I'm going to go to an even higher tree-top level and again say that we in Western society have such relative plush, easy lives that we create new problems to stress out about.
On a side note, Judas Priest' "Eat Me Alive" just came on WEBN. That song rocks and makes me wanna go spray paint graffiti on my old high school.
i may be confusing threads. i just think it's ridiculous that people want to work on stripping the options women have (health care, abortion, morning after pill, comprehensive sex ed) in an effort to force them to "be more responsible" without proposing any similar measures to hold men accountable. it reeks of old-fashioned oppression of women, making sure the baby is a huge ball and chain on them. if you're going to force people to take responsibility, why force a woman to bear the entire burden instead of focusing on forcing men to step up and share the burden? the measures proposed would essentially derail the lives of most women while not even slowing down the men. that's not right in my mind.
i dont like abortion and i dont think i could ever conscionably support it. but im not prepared to outlaw it until the people proposing such a ban can prove to me it wont leave women high and dry. cos usually they're the same people denying women access to birth control, keeping sex ed out of schools, and all sorts of similar measures of sexual intimidation. id like to see abortion become unecessary, not illegal. banning abortion is like treating the symptom, not the cause. it will only rear its head in other areas.
That's not really what I meant but carry on...
I didn;t think so...
So where's my apology?
Thank you. I wish I could have said it so clearly.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
i agree with you. marriage certainly is not what it used to be. but marriage may be a dying institution in some sense. the underlying problem is still that people dont commit, in marriage or otherwise. it's like prescribing paxil to anyone who's sad. we all feel we should feel perfect all the time. suddenly, the passion in a relationship fades, and our feel good culture tells us we shouldn't have to WORK at a relationship, we should just leave and find one that's more exciting.
I often find less is more when discussing politics. It's why my responses are usually direct, short, & to the point.
Just like this one.
I never said women shouldn't have choices and I don't think sex ed should be kept to abstinence only. I said I don't like the term "woman's choice" but that doesn't mean that I want the government to ban abortions. I was pretty clear on that too. You keep talking about leaving women high and dry and my comments have always been that the men are kept out of the equation except to call them deadbeat dads. Cincy wanted to know why babies were born to single moms and not single moms and dads.. The only choice a man has when he gets a woman pregnant is to be obligated to the child or be called a deadbeat dad. Why is the decision to become a parent only the woman's right? Not whether they physically have a baby but to actually be a parent.
I'd go even further to describe it as a "feel good NOW culture." The whole fast food thing, pervasive throughout our entire culture. Folks in less fortunate countries would absolutely love to have our "problems" and have to work up to what we have.
Wow, I never thought of it from that perspective...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
i love this post so much i want to marry it.
cross the river to the eastside
these are all very difficult questions and apparently ive got you confused with someone from the other thread cos i agree with all of those points. we need to totally rethink the way we approach these issues.
what shocks me about this statement is that there are a lot of people on here who would disagree with it and that is messed up. well said.
huh? does uncommitted = selfish? because that would totally make my day.
cross the river to the eastside
If I thought those two were synonyms, I wouldn't have had to use both of them.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Seeing as you are a fan, would you be interested in some over-prized merch signed by yours truly? I have handy the epic story "Shopping list" that I can exclusively sign for you for, oh, 100$. Make that 95, in a today-only offer!
Appreciate the compliments v-gin.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
so is it not having kids that makes people selfish? i'd love to know what you meant.
cross the river to the eastside
Exactly!!!! A lot of people don't and they should.
it does if you're having kids.
if you are having a kid with somebody and you are not at all committed to them, that is selfish. i believe that is what he's saying.
If this is the model you tried but it didn't work out, fine. But I know far too many people who became single parents deliberately. I really have no time for people who are that selfish, or who think that father's are an unneeded in a child's life.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
I think there is some selfishness involved in not wanting to commit as much as before.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=223964
maybe you're beign facetious, but one can find outlier examples like that from any group of folks, regardless of religion, status, sex, etc.