Out of wedlock births hit new high in US

soulsinging

OutOfBreath wrote:

That's it in a nutshell. Marriage does not equal commitment, and commitment does not equal marriage. Married does not equate functional and good, and not married does not mean dysfunctional and bad.

And I will also say (generally, not directed at milhouse) that the problems people are talking about won't get better/worse by looking at marriage in itself. Marriage rates can be a sketchy and rough indicator of social integration (This is not uncontested btw). If marriage rates are going down, something is underlying it. Since people don't change from being married, the married status or lack of can not be the root of the problem. The problem is lacking social integration, less community between people, less stability and less certainty overall, and in personal relations.

To put it simply, a marriage can be a gesture of commitment, but the commitment comes first, and the marriage is merely the formal expression of it for those so inclined.

And for the record, I think most people have similar images of how an ideal family situation will look like. I think there is general consensus on child-rearing. But let's look at the problem, not something that is at best a reflection of it. Talk about lacking integration, the fragmented relations and so on, and dont jump on a high horse implying that if people would just buck up and marry, there wouldn't be a problem. Marriage solves or creates no problems in that respect. We're talking about relations, and a ceremony and a piece of paper alters little in that respect.

Peace
Dan

i agree. marriage or no marriage, what concerns me most about this issue is the apparent unwillingness of anyone to commit to anything that will require work or in any way cut into their long term ability to do whatever they please without regard to anyone else. there seems to be no sense of community or social responsibility anymore... and it's not just about sex. it's about neighbors that never speak, businessmen who never shake hands on a deal, people with cell phones glued to their ear to shut out the real people around them, ipods on at full volume so they dont have to talk to the people next to them on the bus, things like that.

marriage and relationships is just one aspect of the sad fact that anymore, it seems like people just dont have time for relationships with other people anymore. we're all too wrapped up in work and getting to the store to have lunch with a friend. it's not healthy. technology has put the world at our fingertips and work ethics have made us a stunningly wealthy society, but the cost seems to be we are all more isolated than ever and our words are increasingly small and fractured and unhappy...

soulsinging

cornnifer wrote:

i've had a vasectomy, so i'm obviously not opposed to contraception

im glad you're not one of the idiots then. the ones who seem to think that if we refuse to provide birth control to anyone under 21 and outlaw abortion... suddenly teens will stop having sex and getting pregnant. i always wonder what those people are smokin.

Staceb10

soulsinging wrote:

when people talk about responsibility in sex it almost always comes from people opposed to contraception who basically feel women should stop spreading their legs for any guy and it's a double standard i loathe.

That's why I was confused..my comment about that was over the top on purpose. Trust me.. I'm the last person thats going to say women shouldn't have sex but men should etc..

Staceb10

soulsinging wrote:

im glad you're not one of the idiots then. the ones who seem to think that if we refuse to provide birth control to anyone under 21 and outlaw abortion... suddenly teens will stop having sex and getting pregnant. i always wonder what those people are smokin.

My mom's view on it when I was young..well and still is for my niece is that giving me birth control is "condoning" my actions and saying its okay for me to have sex. Now, I'm the first to admit that my mom is prudish and out of touch with reality when it comes to sex but that was her reasoning. Very bad reasoning too.

soulsinging

Staceb10 wrote:

My mom's view on it when I was young..well and still is for my niece is that giving me birth control is "condoning" my actions and saying its okay for me to have sex. Now, I'm the first to admit that my mom is prudish and out of touch with reality when it comes to sex but that was her reasoning. Very bad reasoning too.

yeah, that's the sort of thing i dont go for. seems like quite a stretch to me.

VictoryGin

soulsinging wrote:

marriage and relationships is just one aspect of the sad fact that anymore, it seems like people just dont have time for relationships with other people anymore. we're all too wrapped up in work and getting to the store to have lunch with a friend. it's not healthy.

one reason i don't want to get married is that i value my numerous other relationships too much .

i'm confused about your post though. you say people don't have time for relationships anymore, but then you put down being wrapped up in work (which could contain relationships there) and going out with a friend (which is definitely a relationship). you mentioned talking on the phone, and i understand your technology reference a little, but that person most likely isn't talking to himself or herself. there's another relationship most likely.

soulsinging

VictoryGin wrote:

one reason i don't want to get married is that i value my numerous other relationships too much .

i'm confused about your post though. you say people don't have time for relationships anymore, but then you put down being wrapped up in work (which could contain relationships there) and going out with a friend (which is definitely a relationship). you mentioned talking on the phone, and i understand your technology reference a little, but that person most likely isn't talking to himself or herself. there's another relationship most likely.

my point was that so many of us get so wrapped up in work, we spend our entire day at the computer. we cannot take time to eat lunch with a friend... we eat lunch at our desk instead. we jabber on our cellphones all day and while, yes, it is talking, there is no substitute for face-to-face contact. we've allowed technology to let us literally "phone in" our relationships. no effort to actually see them. i dont have time off to sit down and eat lunch, so ill call you for 5 minutes a week on the way to work cos that's all i can spare for you. that's what im getting at. my point was we DONT go out with friends, there's no time anymore.

and yes, you can have relationships at work. but they are still tied up in work. and i feel strongly that humans were not meant to ahve their entire life and everything in it determined by their work. i plan to work to support my life, i dont live to work.

VictoryGin

soulsinging wrote:

my point was that so many of us get so wrapped up in work, we spend our entire day at the computer. we cannot take time to eat lunch with a friend... we eat lunch at our desk instead. we jabber on our cellphones all day and while, yes, it is talking, there is no substitute for face-to-face contact. we've allowed technology to let us literally "phone in" our relationships. no effort to actually see them. i dont have time off to sit down and eat lunch, so ill call you for 5 minutes a week on the way to work cos that's all i can spare for you. that's what im getting at. my point was we DONT go out with friends, there's no time anymore.

and yes, you can have relationships at work. but they are still tied up in work. and i feel strongly that humans were not meant to ahve their entire life and everything in it determined by their work. i plan to work to support my life, i dont live to work.

ah, i misread the part about lunch. i see what you're saying. i'm not sure i really agree on a correlation to a societal level about people not having time for relationships though. i think relationships are being redefined, but i say there are plenty of people in relationships, they just might be different than before (or at least being acknowledged).