Do you believe in fate?

RolandTD20Kdrummer · September 2007

deadnothingbetter wrote:

wow... awesome.... so you knew i was gonna say, "yes and no"?

so now answer mine.... why do you ask?

That's ok I'm satisfied with the conversation now. Be at peace.

deadnothingbetter · September 2007

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

That's ok I'm satisfied with the conversation now. Be at peace.

????

ok..... i guess, we've got that cleared up.

Yes, indeed, people. We live by chance. Peace to all.

RolandTD20Kdrummer · September 2007

For those interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination

RolandTD20Kdrummer · September 2007

Bu2 wrote:

I'd like to know whether you have kids or not. Whether a loved one close to you suffers from cancer or emphysema. Because I usually can read posts from holier-than-thou folks and either respond once with a pissed off statement, and then let it go, or not respond at all and then let it go. But something about your posts just gets under my skin, Angelica, and you're starting to piss me off.

Your posts come off as coming from that kid in the playground who says, "I know you are, but what am I?"

Your posts are getting added to threads that should've and could've stopped days ago, yet you increase the broadband width by giving us empty spaces of quotes and bold letters and yet you have nothing new to say. You just smugly sit back as if you have all the answers and you calmly bait one person after another, all the while having nothing new to say.

Tell you what? Why don't you respond to my new post here in the Train tonight rather than add a 12th page to a topic that has been completely mangled and misled by you when it should've and could've died a natural death with some dignity days ago?

Meantime, I'll go to bed. Because I'm sure your smarmy responses will be there in the morning.

*Note to everyone else -- forgive me for getting my back up. But....really!*

Whoa...anger...

RolandTD20Kdrummer · September 2007

deadnothingbetter wrote:

???? ok..... i guess, we've got that cleared up.

Yes, indeed, people. We live by chance. Peace to all.

It's not that...I just realized where you're coming from that's all.

deadnothingbetter · September 2007

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

For those interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination

ahh, those stupid calvinists.... they screw it all up.

deadnothingbetter · September 2007

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

It's not that...I just realized where you're coming from that's all.

normally... suggesting from the link you provided, you'd think i'd agree that everything is predetermined. am i right?

cos i know the majority of christians believe that everything is a cause of "fate".... even my own former pastor taught it. it was one of the few major things i disagreed with him. and none of it made sense. not even the bible supports it. the only scriptures i could think of are in romans and ephesians....

RolandTD20Kdrummer · September 2007

deadnothingbetter wrote:

normally... suggesting from the link you provided, you'd think i'd agree that everything is predetermined. am i right?

cos i know the majority of christians believe that everything is a cause of "fate".... even my own former pastor taught it. it was one of the few major things i disagreed with him. and none of it made sense. not even the bible supports it. the only scriptures i could think of are in romans and ephesians....

The only thing I can say is there are two very different schools of opinion and both are structured in a way so as to nearly encompass the act of thought itself.

deadnothingbetter · September 2007

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

The only thing I can say is there are two very different schools of opinion and both are structured in a way so as to nearly encompass the act of thought itself.

that or the bible never supports the concept of "fate".

I again saw under the sun that the (A)race is not to the swift and the (B)battle is not to the warriors, and neither is bread to the wise nor (C)wealth to the discerning nor favor to men of ability; for time and (D)chance overtake them all. Ephesians 9:11

wow, that's a great scripture... i think i'll add it to my footer...

RolandTD20Kdrummer · September 2007

deadnothingbetter wrote:

that or the bible never supports the concept of "fate".

I again saw under the sun that the (A)race is not to the swift and the (B)battle is not to the warriors, and neither is bread to the wise nor (C)wealth to the discerning nor favor to men of ability; for time and (D)chance overtake them all. Ephesians 9:11

Well yeah...that's exactly what I'm saying. Two schools of thought. One rests predominantly on of pure faith of a notion. The other deals with physical evidence. What is the scripture for?

deadnothingbetter · September 2007

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Well yeah...that's exactly what I'm saying. Two schools of thought. One rests predominantly on of pure faith of a notion. The other deals with physical evidence. What is the scripture for?

to show you that the scripture is saying that we live by "chance".

you know, "time and (D)chance overtake them all"

angelica · September 2007

Jeanie wrote:

So how then does it advance the situation by saying that people are responsible for getting their illness? Like shit, sometimes illness just happens. And people do what they can and are able to do when they are confronted with it. To say that they are able to magically, mentally "wish" it away, just as they manifested it, really seems like appropriating blame to me, given that sometimes there is no rhyme or reason for things.

I haven't said people can magically, mentally wish illness away just as they manifested it.

I don't know about "natural laws". Any "laws" always give me pause for consideration because I deem them arbitrary and I'm not one for blindly, or unfalteringly following anything. Yes, we are connected to our bodies but that doesn't mean we are always in charge of what they do.

I realize we are not always in charge of what our bodies do. We are still our bodies, and we are a part of what they do.

Ahnimus · September 2007

It seems like the primary misunderstanding is with causation and human choice.

It's like, people have no problem with causation until it comes to human decisions. Then it's satisfactory to say "It was a choice", implying that choice is the ultimate cause. But that is not satisfactory for anything else. We have a raging debate on wether or not the universe was caused by a big bang or God snapping it's fingers, wether evolution is the cause of species or God snapping it's fingers.

Fate/Destiny can be simply understood by asking "What caused that decision?"

catefrances · September 2007

Jeanie wrote:

See now I would think not always cate and that's what I would call fate.
Things that just happen. Not because of choices but because they just happen.

sorry jeanie, but i don't believe things just happen. i believe in cause and effect.

angelica · September 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

It's like, people have no problem with causation until it comes to human decisions. Then it's satisfactory to say "It was a choice", implying that choice is the ultimate cause.

I don't think people think choice is the ultimate cause. They just recognize that they have choice, even amongst causes.

callen · September 2007

angelica wrote:

I don't think people think choice is the ultimate cause. They just recognize that they have choice, even amongst causes.

reaction yes..choice no.

deadnothingbetter · September 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

It seems like the primary misunderstanding is with causation and human choice.

It's like, people have no problem with causation until it comes to human decisions. Then it's satisfactory to say "It was a choice", implying that choice is the ultimate cause. But that is not satisfactory for anything else. We have a raging debate on wether or not the universe was caused by a big bang or God snapping it's fingers, wether evolution is the cause of species or God snapping it's fingers.

Fate/Destiny can be simply understood by asking "What caused that decision?"

was every decision caused by something?

haven't you made decisions just because?

decides2dream · September 2007

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

And your thoughts and emotions as to what makes you think the way you do....all your choice I presume?

hmm...you'd be the first.

ahhhhhhhhh...i didn't realize that this was going to be one of *those* threads; ya know, the ones where the op poses a question...but rather than actually wanting discussion really is ONLY looking for someone to post exactly what is in his/her head....complete agreement with their personal opinion...or they will simply attack your views.

sorry i missed the cues. seems to be WAY too many threads here that are all about 'agree with me or i'll tell you why you are oh so wrong'...rahter than looking for true discussion.

things is, you betcha...i absolutely believe my thoughts are my own choice. if they weren't, we wouldn't have anything original ever created, no original thought...so no new music, discoveries, art, etc. just b/c my brians biochemistry regulates my brain function...does not to me signify i had not have choice in what i think about. outside stimuli playing an important role, and sure.....one can 'choose' to clear their mind, redirect thought, etc.

as to emotions, i will concede they are much more difficult to control, much more primitive triggers to react to the outside world and thus have an 'emotional' response. none the less...i do believe it is still possible, and while i don't have any links/studies...and yep, too lazy to bother...i do believe learning of studies/experiements in relation to emotional response and control of emotional response.

that said, i think a lot of all *this* boils down to semantics. i see many discussing illness/disease...and while yes, some may stem from external factors, or some things within your control...oftentimes there is a predisposition to disease. is that fate? i never thought so....just genetics....and/or chance. if one wants to call that 'fate'...so be it. riht along with all the other predetermined factors of one's genetic make-up....personality, etc. as i've said, i don't consider any of 'that' fate....more like...you are who you are. starting with the point that who we are is a *given*....beyond that, i believe in choice. however, then it boils down to a discussion of semantics. thus, if you or anyone wants to truly believe that having an illness, or a propensity to being obese, etc...is fate...so be it. as i said, i see it as genetics. if genetic is part of fate...fine. it's just not how i view the world.

c'est la vie.

deadnothingbetter · September 2007

decides2dream wrote:

ahhhhhhhhh...i didn't realize that this was going to be one of *those* threads; ya know, the ones where the op poses a question...but rather than actually wanting discussion really is ONLY looking for someone to post exactly what is in his/her head....complete agreement with their personal opinion...or they will simply attack your views.

sorry i missed the cues. seems to be WAY too many threads here that are all about 'agree with me or i'll tell you why you are oh so wrong'...rahter than looking for true discussion.

things is, you betcha...i absolutely believe my thoughts are my own choice. if they weren't, we wouldn't have anything original ever created, no original thought...so no new music, discoveries, art, etc. just b/c my brians biochemistry regulates my brain function...does not to me signify i had not have choice in what i think about. outside stimuli playing an important role, and sure.....one can 'choose' to clear their mind, redirect thought, etc.

as to emotions, i will concede they are much more difficult to control, much more primitive triggers to react to the outside world and thus have an 'emotional' response. none the less...i do believe it is still possible, and while i don't have any links/studies...and yep, too lazy to bother...i do believe learning of studies/experiements in relation to emotional response and control of emotional response.

that said, i think a lot of all *this* boils down to semantics. i see many discussing illness/disease...and while yes, some may stem from external factors, or some things within your control...oftentimes there is a predisposition to disease. is that fate? i never thought so....just genetics....and/or chance. if one wants to call that 'fate'...so be it. riht along with all the other predetermined factors of one's genetic make-up....personality, etc. as i've said, i don't consider any of 'that' fate....more like...you are who you are. starting with the point that who we are is a *given*....beyond that, i believe in choice. however, then it boils down to a discussion of semantics. thus, if you or anyone wants to truly believe that having an illness, or a propensity to being obese, etc...is fate...so be it. as i said, i see it as genetics. if genetic is part of fate...fine. it's just not how i view the world.

c'est la vie.

i view fate like the mind of God. omniscient. but just cos he knows everything doesn't mean he's responsible for everything.

or put it this way.... grab a paper, tear it into pieces and throw the pieces in the air. you may have been the instigator but the positions that every piece landed is not your fault.

i see us the same way... sure, there are laws and confines that we are subjected to. i truly believe that. but just like the pieces of papers that landed all on randoms spots, through the cause of the universal laws and confines of this earth we are spread out to do things. but how we do them and what we do with them are all our own choices.

jamtemplechains · September 2007

it cracks me up that people pull out arguments that they make sound definitive and factual when they're not even close to being that way. to deny someone's argument that it is all up to chance and coincidence because of 'god' or some 'cosmic force' is denying someone else's opinion based on an assumption that one of these things actually exist. now let's not get into a 'god's real/god's a lie!' thing because god knows that's when all the shit's going to fly. fact of the matter is this is a philisophical, theoretical discussion in which people need to dicuss why fate might or might not be a real, deciding factor in our lives. don't shut someone down because their opinion doesn't embody some sort of religious views you might have. if you've got some sort of documentation that god's real and knows our path, than feel free to let me know. and pleeeease don't waste any time quoting scripture or referring me to the bible or any other holy book. they have no more validity here than your own opinions do.

Do you believe in fate?

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