Too much testosterone!

gue_barium · May 2007

angelica wrote:

What I see is that men and women both buy into our patriarchical systems. Both support it and encourage it and play the male/female roles in it.

As an agressive female, on one hand, I've attracted and obviously connected with guys who have appreciated the way I am--generally guys who were raised in more matriarchical families like I have. What I have found, though, is that no matter who it is or what the background, guys have always tried to "put me in my place" at some point in time. Even the open-minded ones who value who I am. When I cross usual lines, which I just do, and when I'm in territory that others are not used to, it's happened time and again. And, man, guys have tried to sexually put me in my place, too. I had a period in my life where boyfriend after boyfriend suggested we not even have sex at all, because they thought I was too focused on sex. My identity did revolve around it in a warped way, and those men were each very perceptive, and actually compassionate. My point is that men do the conditioning too. At the same time, I'm not in anyway passing off the accountability of women. I personally challenge many of the typical female roles. At other times I completely embrace them.

I do agree about women coming into themselves later in life, for sure. Totally. If men only knew the degree of falseness women are hiding behind before they reach 35 or so, and begin to awaken...it's a little scary, actually, how inauthentic we can be (edit: serious generalization alert from my experience!). I agree with this whole concept as you've put forth.

But, this is all very personal to your experience, and really isn't the best indicator of the human experience placed under the scientific microscope of what testosterone is about. Or aggressiveness/assertiveness. These are personality traits, I think. Not gender specific traits.

Jeanie · May 2007

gue_barium wrote:

I like to have sex on the first date. What does that make me?

My kinda guy?

angelica · May 2007

gue_barium wrote:

But, this is all very personal to your experience, and really isn't the best indicator of the human experience placed under the scientific microscope of what testosterone is about. Or aggressiveness/assertiveness. These are personality traits, I think. Not gender specific traits.

Personality traits and how women are socially conditioned is also relevent in whether they act assertive, or whether they are unassertive, compared to males.

What I've seen is definitely limited to my experience. I believe that lucy also said earlier that women are more prone to playing mind games, too, so it looks like he has perceived that as well in his experience.

and as an aside, I didn't mean to imply that by being assertive I was above playing mind games. I was huge into them myself for a long time.

angelica · May 2007

gue_barium wrote:

Some women. Some people.

Definitely....that is why I added in the edit--I was generalizing, which is not wholly accurate. I do feel it is "many" and not just "some", imo.

gue_barium · May 2007

angelica wrote:

Personality traits and how women are socially conditioned is also relevent in whether they act assertive, or whether they are unassertive, compared to males.

What I've seen is definitely limited to my experience. I believe that lucy also said earlier that women are more prone to playing mind games, too, so it looks like he has perceived that as well in his experience.

and as an aside, I didn't mean to imply that by being assertive I was above playing mind games. I was huge into them myself for a long time.

But, what's any of that got to do with anything in the world of "gender"?

lucylespian · May 2007

Jeanie wrote:

Well I agree lucy, that mind games or physical force are not particularly nice or helpful. I do know that I've never hit anyone that hasn't hit me first. And it's unfortunate that I've had to resort to retaliation but sometimes, when your life's in danger that's exactly what you have to do. Along with running, hiding, curling into the fetal position and covering your head to hopefully lessen the trauma. There's no point being a pacifist if you're being given the hiding of your life and you want to live. And I still don't see what happened to me as particularly bad, given what I've heard has happened to others.
So I guess that's where I could also see myself being in their shoes, just as I can see myself in the abusers shoes. I understand to a degree how this stuff happens. But it doesn't make it right as you yourself said. But I can see the mindset that gets abused women plotting the demise of their abuser. I've done it myself. Plotted that is. Anyway, this stuff is way off thread as far as I can see and we've done it all before here and more and I know nothing about it as the great and might minds will tell you. :rolleyes:

What I'd like to know is when do you think we will have a female Prime Minister here in Australia?

I don't think we are off topic, we are tlaking about male vs female aggression.

I was not reffering to defensive force from women, I was referring to women as the aggressor. They did not hit me to defend them selves. They hit me through aggression. I also empathise with women who plot the demise of their aggressor. They have to, because they do not have the power to do it spontaneously.

angelica · May 2007

gue_barium wrote:

But, what's any of that got to do with anything in the world of "gender"?

How women and men are conditioned and gender norms in our society directly connect with gender.

gue_barium · May 2007

angelica wrote:

How women and men are conditioned and gender norms in our society directly connect with gender.

I don't know who or what these conditioners are, and you might do well to question that yourself being that you've reached, by your own claim, an age that sees above the nonsense...

If gender were an identity, we would all introduce ourselves as such:

Hello, there, I'm Penis Testes Sperm, one of my primary life-forces is testosterone.

Well, Hello, I'm Vagina Clitoris Ovary, one of my primary life-forces is estrogen, see my boobs?

angelica · May 2007

gue_barium wrote:

I don't know who or what these conditioners are, and you might do well to question that yourself being that you've reached, by your own claim, an age that sees above the nonsense...

If gender were an identity, we would all introduce ourselves as such:

Hello, there, I'm Penis, one of my primary life-forces is testosterone.

Well, Hello, I'm Vagina Clitoris, one of my primary life-forces is estrogen, see my boobs?

Gender--or our male or femaleness-- interacts with conditioning and cultural issues, which specifically teaches roles for males and females.

Also, some people progress okay and come through the falseness; others do not. Others go downhill as they age.

lucylespian · May 2007

gue_barium wrote:

I don't know who or what these conditioners are, and you might do well to question that yourself being that you've reached, by your own claim, an age that sees above the nonsense...

If gender were an identity, we would all introduce ourselves as such:

Hello, there, I'm Penis Testes Sperm, one of my primary life-forces is testosterone.

Well, Hello, I'm Vagina Clitoris Ovary, one of my primary life-forces is estrogen, see my boobs?

Well, apart from teh fact that you seem to implying that "gender" means more than what sex a person is, that ius pretty much how we introduce ourselves, albeit non-verbally.
For example, I just saw a bloke who is an average fat-arse middle aged slob, and he has his nipples pierced. So he is trying to say, hey I'm really macho and tough ya know. The fact that it is "so 5 yr ago" is probbaly going to let him down though. I like snug shirts cos they flatter me, make me look like a strong protector and a good provider.
Alternatively, girls dress wiht their best feature on show, be it their face, their cleavage, their ass, whatever. Those things emphasise their potential fertility. Big tits, good feeder, nice tummy fat, gonna have babies.

None of this is bad though, it's just what we do, trying to do the best we can each day.

gue_barium · May 2007

angelica wrote:

Gender--or our male or femaleness-- interacts with conditioning and cultural issues, which specifically teaches roles for males and females.

Also, some people progress okay and come through the falseness; others do not. Others go downhill as they age.

"conditioning and cultural issues" may interact with gender, but to what extent are you giving credence to the falseness of this?

angelica · May 2007

gue_barium wrote:

"conditioning and cultural issues" may interact with gender, but to what extent are you giving credence to the falseness of this?

I'm dealing with what exists. When gender roles are seen objectively, subjectively, and inter-subjectively, I acknowledge these levels and how these dynamics play out.

Jeanie · May 2007

lucylespian wrote:

I don't think we are off topic, we are tlaking about male vs female aggression.

I was not reffering to defensive force from women, I was referring to women as the aggressor. They did not hit me to defend them selves. They hit me through aggression. I also empathise with women who plot the demise of their aggressor. They have to, because they do not have the power to do it spontaneously.

I realized what you were talking about lucy.

I'm well aware that women can be highly aggressive and violent to men, other women and children.

I guess I'm just bored of the Male vs Female aggression thing coz we've done it all before. And seemingly we never reach consensus or make changes to the world around us.

And besides I've always wondered why, in a country that was very early into suffrage, still has not had a female prime minister.
And I wonder why so many of our female politicians are discredited and vilified the way they are.

gue_barium · May 2007

lucylespian wrote:

Well, apart from teh fact that you seem to implying that "gender" means more than what sex a person is, that ius pretty much how we introduce ourselves, albeit non-verbally.
For example, I just saw a bloke who is an average fat-arse middle aged slob, and he has his nipples pierced. So he is trying to say, hey I'm really macho and tough ya know. The fact that it is "so 5 yr ago" is probbaly going to let him down though. I like snug shirts cos they flatter me, make me look like a strong protector and a good provider.
Alternatively, girls dress wiht their best feature on show, be it their face, their cleavage, their ass, whatever. Those things emphasise their potential fertility. Big tits, good feeder, nice tummy fat, gonna have babies.

None of this is bad though, it's just what we do, trying to do the best we can each day.

I completely understand this.

lucylespian · May 2007

gue_barium wrote:

"conditioning and cultural issues" may interact with gender, but to what extent are you giving credence to the falseness of this?

Gender issues aren't false. The feminists of teh 70's and 80's treid to assert this, and did a lotof harm in teh process. The trick is to allow equality while repecting gender differences. Equating equality with sameness is a mistake.

gue_barium · May 2007

angelica wrote:

I'm dealing with what exists. When gender roles are seen objectively, subjectively, and inter-subjectively, I acknowledge these levels and how these dynamics play out.

I think you're ducking out of the question.
I was asking you, personally, ""conditioning and cultural issues" may interact with gender, but to what extent are you giving credence to the "falseness" of this?

You aren't in a role to argue for the rest of us what gender roles are seen as "objective, subjective, or inter-subjectively". You are in a role as an individual on a message board, being asked to be honest.

angelica · May 2007

lucylespian wrote:

Gender issues aren't false. The feminists of teh 70's and 80's treid to assert this, and did a lotof harm in teh process. The trick is to allow equality while repecting gender differences. Equating equality with sameness is a mistake.

I agree.

lucylespian · May 2007

Jeanie wrote:

I realized what you were talking about lucy.

I'm well aware that women can be highly aggressive and violent to men, other women and children.

I guess I'm just bored of the Male vs Female aggression thing coz we've done it all before. And seemingly we never reach consensus or make changes to the world around us.

And besides I've always wondered why, in a country that was very early into suffrage, still has not had a female prime minister.
And I wonder why so many of our female politicians are discredited and vilified the way they are.

I'm gogin to postulate that this is because of sex segregation at high school level. Politicians often come from private schools, and they tend not to be co-ed. So boys do not learn to interact with girls in an intelectual setting in those formative years. The female associate schools are primarily seen as sources of sexual conquest and those attitudes carry over into the business world............................
OR.............

Women are too smart to be politicians !!!!!

angelica · May 2007

gue_barium wrote:

I think you're ducking out of the question.
I was asking you, personally, ""conditioning and cultural issues" may interact with gender, but to what extent are you giving credence to the "falseness" of this?

You aren't in a role to argue for the rest of us what gender roles are seen as "objective, subjective, or inter-subjectively". You are in a role as an individual on a message board, being asked to be honest.

I gave you my response on how I see it. You are free to not like my response.

Jeanie · May 2007

lucylespian wrote:

Gender issues aren't false. The feminists of teh 70's and 80's treid to assert this, and did a lotof harm in teh process. The trick is to allow equality while repecting gender differences. Equating equality with sameness is a mistake.

I agree with this too lucy, although I think from an historical and strategic point of view that perhaps that was the argument that feminists had to make at the time in order to make the most headway. Anyway, who knows?
Fact is we are were we are now, and it's time that we were all actually equal, whilst still retaining our individuality.

Too much testosterone!

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