God vs Logic

catefrances · August 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

I read a really good logic arguement the other day about god being perfect.
If god was perfect why did it create an imperfect reality, with imperfect inhabitants and imperfect habitats?
If god is perfect, why did it create anything? That implies a desire or longing, which implies a void or imperfection.

God can not be perfect. He created Man in his own image did he not?
as we all know, Man is far from perfect. therefore it is logical to say that God him/herself can not be perfect. right??

mxaaron · August 2006

69charger wrote:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from postings such as this one, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them. .

*Sigh* Okay friend, since you are so eager to learn, I have taken the time to try and answer the "questions" you have, or at least provide links for you to follow up on. I hope I will be of some help...

69charger wrote:

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? .

Is there a real question here? Or are you just confused about the OT sacrificial system? Or maybe you're just trying to be funny, or both...

69charger wrote:

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.html
I'm sure you will enjoy the read

69charger wrote:

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual cleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. .

"The core ideas around which Leviticus develops are the holy character of God & the will of God for ISRAEL'S HOLINESS" (MacArthur). In other words, the laws were meant to ensure Israel's holiness and purity before a holy God.
The laws, such as the above law that you make light of, are served as basic sanitary guidelines to follow. What is shocking/peculiar about that?

69charger wrote:

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? .

*See above article*

69charger wrote:

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? .

Another link for you:http://www.carm.org/diff/Exod20_8.htm

69charger wrote:

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) .

See my above remarks

69charger wrote:

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

I think you need to study a little bit on your own, especially about whether or not Christians are under Mosaic Law. I would say we are under Grace (Rom. 6:14), not the law, which is clearly taught in the New Testament.. you know, the whole other half of the Bible you forgot to mention.

Anyway, hope I have helped...

LikeAnOcean · August 2006

I think its quite logical that God can neither be proven or misproven.

It's actually perfectly logical that people have different opinions about the unknown.

mxaaron · August 2006

catefrances wrote:

God can not be perfect. He created Man in his own image did he not?
as we all know, Man is far from perfect. therefore it is logical to say that God him/herself can not be perfect. right??

Wrong.
God did create man in his own image (Gen. 1:27), and also created Adam perfect and most importantly free of sin. It was his disobediance in the Garden of Eden that led to the imperfect, perhaps "depraved" state you see now.

mxaaron · August 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

Maybe someone could post it, there is no deffinate link to that section of the article and the rest of it seems to twist reality to prepare the mind for something absurd.

Here it is, taken from here: http://www.iep.utm.edu/o/ont-arg.htm#H2

It is a conceptual truth (or, so to speak, true by definition) that God is a being than which none greater can be imagined (i.e., the greatest possible being that can be imagined).

God exists as an idea in the mind.

A being that exists as an idea in the mind and in reality is, other things being equal, greater than a being that exists only as an idea in the mind.

Thus, if God exists only as an idea in the mind, then we can imagine something that is greater than God (i.e., a greatest possible being that does exist).

But we cannot imagine something that is greater than God (for it is a contradiction to suppose that we can imagine a being greater than the greatest possible being that can be imagined.)

Therefore, God exists.

catefrances · August 2006

mxaaron wrote:

Wrong.
God did create man in his own image (Gen. 1:27), and also created Adam perfect and most importantly free of sin. It was his disobediance in the Garden of Eden that led to the imperfect, perhaps "depraved" state you see now.

Adam wasn't perfect. He was ignorant. So by that rationale God himself is ignorant. Or just vindictive. If God had been more compassionate, he would have explained things to Adam and perhaps the "depraved" state we now find ourselves in would not exist. Every parent knows that you can not just tell a child not to do something. They require an explanation as to why they are not allowed. Do as i say, not as i do, does not work.

Ahnimus · August 2006

catefrances wrote:

God can not be perfect. He created Man in his own image did he not?
as we all know, Man is far from perfect. therefore it is logical to say that God him/herself can not be perfect. right??

Yea, exactly. But even if god did not create man identical to him, the fact that he created anything, implies to me an imperfection. We created watches because we aren't perfect and don't always know what time it is unless we have a watch.

It's fascinating to think that intelligence in it's most perfect form and with ulitmate power of reality would aspire to create something so far from perfect with very little control over reality. Then say to them you must follow these rules, knowing completely that they would fail repeatedly through all time. Then sentence them to non-existence or hell for eternity. Meanwhile those that follow his rule spend eternity in heaven. Where? What? What exactly does a person do in heave for eternity? Is it an eternal orgasm? Does that get boring? Is there like little communities? Is it a collective like the borg? Do men get 72 virgins? What do the women get?

Also, if god is not perfect then we have to ask ourselves, how perfect is god? Is god lying to us? Does god really have ultimate control? Are there other gods? Is god just an alien lifeform taking advantage of an infant planet? What do we know about god that we can provide any evidence or insight outside of the historical accounts of the bible? If we put god on trial in a modern court, what happens?

I can agree to disagree. However, religion is a major obstacle that as a terrestrial race we need to overcome. It affects our politics and moral decision making. Affects our schools. We all know that a childs brain is like a sponge and anything we teach them will get soaked up. Our brains actually change according to our experiences, they remap themselves, and that gets more tightly wound with age. That's why older folks are always set in their ways, while youth are open to new ideas and perspectives. Science class is about exploring the unknown with an analytical forumla seperating fact from bullshit and looking at various perspectives that work. Evolution is a perspective that is supported by many facts and has always worked going forward. As with all scientific fact it's potentially fallable. In the case it doesn't work there is new evidence to support usually a slightly different perspective. Such is the case with pluto / planet problem. Creationism doesn't fit that formula, it has literally nothing logical or physical to support it, at all. It's an interesting belief, I'll say that, just don't laugh at people who believe aliens. Their belief has more logic and physical evidence supporting it.

Anyway, done for now. Friede, Liebe und kein Stress!

mxaaron · August 2006

catefrances wrote:

Adam wasn't perfect. He was ignorant. So by that rationale God himself is ignorant. Or just vindictive. If God had been more compassionate, he would have explained things to Adam and perhaps the "depraved" state we now find ourselves in would not exist. Every parent knows that you can not just tell a child not to do something. They require an explanation as to why they are not allowed. Do as i say, not as i do, does not work.

God clearly warned Adam not to eat the fruit, but He and Eve did so anyway. How exactly do you think Adam was ignorant of a situation he was warned of?

Ahnimus · August 2006

mxaaron wrote:

Here it is, taken from here: http://www.iep.utm.edu/o/ont-arg.htm#H2

It is a conceptual truth (or, so to speak, true by definition) that God is a being than which none greater can be imagined (i.e., the greatest possible being that can be imagined).

God exists as an idea in the mind.

A being that exists as an idea in the mind and in reality is, other things being equal, greater than a being that exists only as an idea in the mind.

Thus, if God exists only as an idea in the mind, then we can imagine something that is greater than God (i.e., a greatest possible being that does exist).

But we cannot imagine something that is greater than God (for it is a contradiction to suppose that we can imagine a being greater than the greatest possible being that can be imagined.)

Therefore, God exists.

Until your brain dies, then it doesn't matter what you can imagine. I agree, all of our realities exist only within our minds. Some people break down and get dementia. So therefore when our brains die, reality doesn't exist in our minds.

catefrances · August 2006

mxaaron wrote:

God clearly warned Adam not to eat the fruit, but He and Eve did so anyway. How exactly do you think Adam was ignorant of a situation he was warned of?

He was ignorant in that he believed what he was told. God said do not eat from the tree of knowledge or even touch it, lest ye die. Adam's ignorance came in not knowing. Not knowing anything really. Not good. Not evil. Living blissfully in the Garden.
God surely had to know that the snake would tempt Eve and then Adam. So why did he allow the snake access to the Garden. or is it just that women are insidious creatures and man has no will or restraint of his own?
Adam blamed Eve for his eating the fruit and Eve in turn blamed the snake. Neither took responsibility for their actions.

mxaaron · August 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

Yea, exactly. But even if god did not create man identical to him, the fact that he created anything, implies to me an imperfection. We created watches because we aren't perfect and don't always know what time it is unless we have a watch. !

God doesn't need us the same way we need watches. By that I mean God did not need us in order to function. Prove me wrong from scrpiture.

Ahnimus wrote:

It's fascinating to think that intelligence in it's most perfect form and with ulitmate power of reality would aspire to create something so far from perfect with very little control over reality. Then say to them you must follow these rules, knowing completely that they would fail repeatedly through all time. Then sentence them to non-existence or hell for eternity.!

What is far from perfect? Explain. Why do I not have control over reality? In an earlier post I gave you an argument which has stood up for centuries, one which through reason alone justifies belief in a god

Ahnimus wrote:

Meanwhile those that follow his rule spend eternity in heaven. Where? What? What exactly does a person do in heave for eternity? Is it an eternal orgasm? Does that get boring? Is there like little communities? Is it a collective like the borg? Do men get 72 virgins? What do the women get?

Do want a biblical response as to what we are going to do in heaven? I can give you one if you like...

Ahnimus wrote:

Also, if god is not perfect then we have to ask ourselves, how perfect is god? Is god lying to us? Does god really have ultimate control? Are there other gods? Is god just an alien lifeform taking advantage of an infant planet? What do we know about god that we can provide any evidence or insight outside of the historical accounts of the bible? If we put god on trial in a modern court, what happens?

Uh, I think the argument all along is that God is perfect. If he was not I would probably have the same questions you just raised.

Ahnimus wrote:

I can agree to disagree. However, religion is a major obstacle that as a terrestrial race we need to overcome. It affects our politics and moral decision making. Affects our schools. We all know that a childs brain is like a sponge and anything we teach them will get soaked up. Our brains actually change according to our experiences, they remap themselves, and that gets more tightly wound with age. That's why older folks are always set in their ways, while youth are open to new ideas and perspectives. Science class is about exploring the unknown with an analytical forumla seperating fact from bullshit and looking at various perspectives that work. Evolution is a perspective that is supported by many facts and has always worked going forward. As with all scientific fact it's potentially fallable. In the case it doesn't work there is new evidence to support usually a slightly different perspective. Such is the case with pluto / planet problem. Creationism doesn't fit that formula, it has literally nothing logical or physical to support it, at all. It's an interesting belief, I'll say that, just don't laugh at people who believe aliens. Their belief has more logic and physical evidence supporting it.

Yes, religion has played a major role in many areas, sometimes for the better, alot of times for the worse. But then again, some humanistic and completley secular worldviews haven't fared to well either, especially when it comes to politics (Stalin, Pol Pot, & so on).

Ahnimus wrote:

Anyway, done for now. Friede, Liebe und kein Stress!

Good night

catefrances · August 2006

mxaaron wrote:

God doesn't need us the same way we need watches. By that I mean God did not need us in order to function. Prove me wrong from scrpiture.

and i do not need God in order to function.
plus there's the added bonus of me having created four lives. therefore i am perfect.

mxaaron · August 2006

catefrances wrote:

and i do not need God in order to function..

Okay...but that has little relevance to the point I made.

catefrances wrote:

plus there's the added bonus of me having created four lives. therefore i am perfect.

Are you saying that since you created 4 lives (children, I assume) you therefore are perfect? Seems like imperfect logic to me.

catefrances · August 2006

mxaaron wrote:

Okay...but that has little relevance to the point I made.

you said,
"God doesn't need us the same way we need watches. By that I mean God did not need us in order to function."

i was merely pointing out that just as God does not require us to function, i do not require God in order for me to function. that is all.

mxaaron wrote:

Are you saying that since you created 4 lives (children, I assume) you therefore are perfect? Seems like imperfect logic to me.

no. but it sure makes me powerful in the knowledge that i can create life. knowing i can sustain,grow and nurture and give birth while shedding blood. yet when man sheds blood all he delivers is death.

mxaaron · August 2006

catefrances wrote:

no. but it sure makes me powerful in the knowledge that i can create life. knowing i can sustain,grow and nurture and give birth while shedding blood. yet when man sheds blood all he delivers is death.

Indeed. Well said

mxaaron · August 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

Until your brain dies, then it doesn't matter what you can imagine. I agree, all of our realities exist only within our minds. Some people break down and get dementia. So therefore when our brains die, reality doesn't exist in our minds.

No, the conclusion reached by the argument is that God must exist outside the mind.

catefrances · August 2006

mxaaron wrote:

No, the conclusion reached by the argument is that God must exist outside the mind.

however if God does not exist within the mind, then he does not exist at all. if we fail to perceive him then he is nothing.

mxaaron · August 2006

catefrances wrote:

however if God does not exist within the mind, then he does not exist at all. if we fail to perceive him then he is nothing.

I should have added "as well" after that statement. Of course Anselm thought God existed in the mind of the perciever. Sorry for the confusion.

A Surprise Left · August 2006

both camps have very illogical ideas on their side as i will prove;

a) God created millions of people who never heard the gospel but will nonetheless be subjected to judgement based on their belief or otherwise on this offer.

b) This big bang occured billions of years ago, which somehow resulted in the amazing lifeforms we have today. There is no hard physical evidence to support (eg "missing links") this but we believe it to be true.

See neither camp is "logical"..........

Ahnimus · August 2006

mxaaron wrote:

God doesn't need us the same way we need watches. By that I mean God did not need us in order to function. Prove me wrong from scrpiture.

Scripture means very little to me. I consider it an early attempt at recorded history. Similar to other ancient texts. At the time of the Assyrians and Sumerians in ancient Mesopotamia they believed in aliens and documented it on stones. Perhaps that is proof of alien life. The watch analogy is simple, we only create something because it serves us a purpose. Why would a perfect being be any different?

What is far from perfect? Explain. Why do I not have control over reality? In an earlier post I gave you an argument which has stood up for centuries, one which through reason alone justifies belief in a god

Everything is imperfect. The entire universe is ultimately going to change and destroy us. Poverty, abuse, natural disasters, crime. Those things aren't perfect. You do not have control over reality because you exist within it. Your level of control is 90% your ability to use your hands. That century old arguement, thinking something could possibly exist doesn't mean it does. A giant chicken could be floating through space five million kilometers away, heading for earth to eat us. It's not going to happen no matter how much I want it to.

Do want a biblical response as to what we are going to do in heaven? I can give you one if you like...

Please, I missed that part or forgot it maybe. I vaguely remember it being a war against evil. An eternal war? Hey not much different on earth.

Uh, I think the argument all along is that God is perfect. If he was not I would probably have the same questions you just raised.

Can't be perfect.

Yes, religion has played a major role in many areas, sometimes for the better, alot of times for the worse. But then again, some humanistic and completley secular worldviews haven't fared to well either, especially when it comes to politics (Stalin, Pol Pot, & so on).

It hasn't had as long to develope. It really has nothing to do with religion when you are talking about that kind of stuff. Politics and religion don't go good together, those same conclusions can be met through logic.

God vs Logic

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