El Presidente Hugo Chavez!
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_FiveAgainstOne_ wrote:so you're all using wikipedia as your sources?...
OMG. The Wikipedia debate... I would trust wikipedia before I would trust ANY "official" encylopedia...
"There is no truth when the profit motive is involved." - me
Wikipedia isn't my source anyway... I just posted it because it looks like a well compiled resource. My sources are independent news articles and research.Freedom is a state of mind...0 -
brokendave wrote:1. Coercion is NOT involved in his elections.
2. "It" - Running the country for the benefit of the people. His motives are not of self gain, or of the gain of the wealthy, unlike most westernized countries.
So was Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro...etc etc etc.
Everything is great in a totalitarian regime as long as you toe the party line, have an opposing viewpoint... you're dead.
Maybe it's just me, but I like choosing for myself whatever I can rather than leaving all my decisions to the great and powerful government leader whether it's Bush or Castro or Chavez or whomever choose your favorite, the less involvement they have in my life the better.
There are no classes in that style of government because everyone is poor but the government. Everyones got a job, but its the most inefficient means of distributing resources and getting work done.
If you're looking for better socialism, look to Western Europe, they do it as well as anyone combining socialism with capitalism...but they have been at it longer as well.My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.0 -
brokendave wrote:I can read spanish, and if it is too complicated, there is babble fish...
You've not read about this 18 month permission? Come on, it is in every newspaper from Latin America. The worst thing that could happen to Venezuela, call me pesimist, but I have a very bad feeling about this "XXIst century socialism", I don't think it will end by its own terms, and no I don't mean by a foreign invation, I believe that the poor expectations are way too high and so far Chavez has promised a lot but delivered little, if this situation does not change collective frustration could turn into violence. We've seen it before in Latin America.
I'm sorry but I don't trust his motives at all. And yes, Venezuelans are extremely concerned with loosing their democracy. And no I don't think US will invade Venezuela, come on, I don't think they are even considering it. But say that was the case, Bush political capital is practically non-existant these days.
OK, this information was published everywhere. No the poll was conducted by numerous firms. Veneconsultores, Datanalisis. Every single respected poll taker in Venezuela pointed in that direction.
Come on, you can't be serious. You would be OK with paid cable TV services to be interrupted to broadcast a President's speech whenever the President feels like it????
I see we have no common ground to discuss, so I'll leave it here. I'm a democratic person at heart and I believe in social democracy, the way it is implemented say in Chile, Italia, Germany. That's as left as my convictions allow me to go.0 -
CaterinaA wrote:...this is hearsay for you, but 5 of my dad's friend who signed the Referendum petition got the retirement pensions denied and 2 others were denied their passports...
People in the US are denied passports and state retirement pensions all the time, and many of them have signed petitions again George W. Bush... does that mean there was a government conspiracy... no. It is still hearsay.CaterinaA wrote:...Chile's records in every single social, political and economic indicator are sooo much better than Chavez records.
I've heard good things of Chile. A good friend of mine wants to move there (her parents are Chilean). However, is it not true that Chile has had the good graces and help of the US government for almost 20 years? i.e. They have a lot of revenue coming in?CaterinaA wrote:OK here's the thing...
Don't play on our general ignorance. I want to learn about south america, and what better way to do it than to speak with someone who has lived there... Please paint the entire picture from now on. What you did was misleading a least.CaterinaA wrote:...MERCOSUR was functioning just fine until he entered the organisation.
Was MERCOSUR a private program? When transitioning systems from private to public, they will have serious issues that will need to be worked out as quickly as possible. If he isn't doing it quickly... then the people should stand up and demand it.CaterinaA wrote:...The major concern about this thing is that agriculture and small and medium firms are becoming a memory of the past in Venezuela.
A understandable concern if you are middle class, or if you are of any intellect.CaterinaA wrote:Nope, I would never vote for somebody with such disregard for Democracy.
Understood. I can respect that.CaterinaA wrote:...I'd say Clinton in a heatbeat...
Clinton was a puppet of giant global corporations who supported NAFTA and "free trade". He had no one's interests at heart but his own. In fact, the only good thing to be said about him was that he was an excellent diplomat (minus the Iraqi factory bombing).CaterinaA wrote:...but why if CANTV was working fine must it be returned to the State...
Such systems should not be left in the hand of the profit motive. It results in over pricing, less rights for consumers, an inability to receive such services for those who can't afford it, etc... It is a huge mistake in the US that we ever allowed our phone, water, electric, and gas to be privatized.Freedom is a state of mind...0 -
Pacomc79 wrote:So was Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro...etc etc etc...
Do not compare President Hugo Chavez to them please. He has not committed genocide, or killed any mass of people for that matter, nor would he.
You can keep Castro out of that group too for that matter.Pacomc79 wrote:If you're looking for better socialism, look to Western Europe, they do it as well as anyone combining socialism with capitalism...but they have been at it longer as well.
I agree that they have done a great job of combining socialism with capitalism, but they still lack democracy (as does the US).
Alas, democracy seems impossible when combined with capitalism...Freedom is a state of mind...0 -
CaterinaA wrote:You've not read about this 18 month permission?
Of coarse I've read about that, but I've not read of many of the actions he has been taking using that permission.CaterinaA wrote:...I don't think US will invade Venezuela, come on, I don't think they are even considering it. But say that was the case, Bush political capital is practically non-existant these days.
It isn't just the Bush administration speaking out against Venezuela, it is the party line of both Democrats and Republicans. Where as they have no reason to invade Venezuela right now, it doesn't mean they won't have a reason. They may just start giving billions in military equipment to a dictatorship, willing to attempt a coup. This isn't unlikely if you look at the history of US foreign policy.CaterinaA wrote:OK, this information was published everywhere. No the poll was conducted by numerous firms. Veneconsultores, Datanalisis. Every single respected poll taker in Venezuela pointed in that direction.
Okay, I will look into that. I don't think a channel should be able to perform spin and spread farce propaganda to further a political or economic means.CaterinaA wrote:Come on, you can't be serious. You would be OK with paid cable TV services to be interrupted to broadcast a President's speech whenever the President feels like it????
Sure! Participation is something greatly lacking in American the socio-political realm! Anything to further promote participation is a good thing in my book!CaterinaA wrote:I see we have no common ground to discuss...
If find that disheartening. I think you can learn something from anyone. Even though you are against Chavez, I have learned here, as have you. What is the harm in continuing discussion? Do we have to agree?
I believe in democracy too, I just don't think it exists anywhere. Capitalism has drowned true democracy. We are the result of years of imperialism, capitalism, spin, and oligarchy.
I believe in socialism as a free way to live. Capitalism is not working, and it never did. Unfortunately, it will be too difficult to re-mold it for the better... we are going to have to change it by the force of the people... such has happened in Venezuela... which despite is shortcomings, I am optimistic about.Freedom is a state of mind...0 -
brokendave wrote:People in the US are denied passports and state retirement pensions all the time, and many of them have signed petitions again George W. Bush... does that mean there was a government conspiracy... no. It is still hearsay.
OK, are you trying to tell me that if you are a member of the Democratic Party and a Republican is in office a retirement pension can be denied just for disliking the affiliation? I won't go further with this point- as I said, check out Maisanta List.brokendave wrote:I've heard good things of Chile. A good friend of mine wants to move there (her parents are Chilean). However, is it not true that Chile has had the good graces and help of the US government for almost 20 years? i.e. They have a lot of revenue coming in?
Chile has not had any particular help of the US government. It is a country that's been lucky to have good Presidents that have promoted a consistent policy devoted to increase the well-being of its citizens while respecting their personal freedoms and property rights. Actually, Chile was a rotating member of the UN Security Council and voted against the US invading Irak.brokendave wrote:Don't play on our general ignorance. I want to learn about south america, and what better way to do it than to speak with someone who has lived there... Please paint the entire picture from now on. What you did was misleading a least.
I'm sorry if I sounded arrogant, it wasn't my intention at all, seriously
.
Whatever you want to know about South America, please do ask me, I'll do me best to provide and answer.brokendave wrote:Was MERCOSUR a private program? When transitioning systems from private to public, they will have serious issues that will need to be worked out as quickly as possible. If he isn't doing it quickly... then the people should stand up and demand it
No, MERCOSUR is South America's equivalent to the European Union. It is a trade and cooperation agreement between Argentina, Brazil. Paraguay and Uruguay. Chile is partial member 'cause MERCOSUR would be a step-back in Chile's trade policies. Anyway, Venezuela was accepted as a full member in December 2005, however so far all Chavez has done is engage in fights with Lula (Brazil's President) with Michelle Bachelet (Chile's President) and has fullfilled ZERO of the requisites he agreed to.brokendave wrote:A understandable concern if you are middle class, or if you are of any intellect.
This is a concern regardless of whatever social strata you belong to. Cause the paralization (is this word correct?) of those areas leads to unemployment, which always is more damaging to the have nots
Thanksbrokendave wrote:Understood. I can respect that.brokendave wrote:Clinton was a puppet of giant global corporations who supported NAFTA and "free trade". He had no one's interests at heart but his own. In fact, the only good thing to be said about him was that he was an excellent diplomat (minus the Iraqi factory bombing)..
Well, I see him in a slight different manner. You asked me who would I vote for and gave 4 choices, so I chose
.brokendave wrote:Such systems should not be left in the hand of the profit motive. It results in over pricing, less rights for consumers, an inability to receive such services for those who can't afford it, etc... It is a huge mistake in the US that we ever allowed our phone, water, electric, and gas to be privatized.
This can be prevented with good regulation.
Here's the link about Chavez given permission to rule by decree for 18months. I found the link in this page which is strongly favorable to Chavez to prevent bias allegations.
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=2207
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/070130/3/2wmt8.html (and this from Reuters).
http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/international/ticker/detail/Chavez_gets_powers_to_rule_by_decree.html?siteSect=143&sid=7484621&cKey=1170276837000 (Reuters again)0 -
brokendave wrote:
I forgot to tell you that despite our lack of commong ground to debate I'm a very stubborn person, so I won't give up in convincing you
I believe in social democracy: meaning a democracy with a good mix of private activity and a solid State. I believe in private enterprise, in promoting and respecting it, in promoting private innovation, reserach, development, in creating a safety net for citizens, in providing an relatively egalitarian starting point, you know, governments should enable the equality of opportunities. But I'm strongly opposed against any system that hinders personal preferences and personal liberties (which are human rights, by the way).
OK; I'll get back to you during the week. Now I have to run, I have to finish a paper I'm writing at work and I have to finish it today.0 -
Hugo Chavez= Jesus
Ahhhhhhhh..men0 -
Last night I posted a reply. It was respectful and, to the best of my ability, balanced. I understand why brokendave would feel compelled to support Chavez but I also wanted him to make sure that he didn't give in to the propaganda and hype that surround his figure.
My statements were called bullshit and I felt deeply offended.
So today I was going to start compiling a list of sources to back up my statements and what do I see? CaterinaA's amazing effort.
Brokendave, my friend, this girl is brilliant, she gave you all kinds of evidence--theoretical and empirical--which saved me the effort of having to provide you with information that would not have been half as compelling.
I understand that you are deeply disappointed with the U.S. government. I am too, but more so with its civil society who, in my opinion, has not risen to the occasion and made its voice heard regarding all of the atrocities that the administration is undertaking. This, though, does not make Chavez a better person. He is still a "caudillo" and anti-democratic at heart.
Since I too live in Chile I don't feel like I have to compare Chavez to Bush to determine what kind of a person he is. His actions, reforms and apparent motivations speak for themselves.
Please, understand, Chavez is not as good as you want him to be.
Oh, and are you still calling my statements bullshit? If you're not, I ask you to please make it known to all.
That's all for now.
Oh, and if you want to get a glimpse of what those presidential messages are like take a lookie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwotG4uNDtY . That's the shortest one I found on youtube, there are 10 minute ones if you're still interested.0 -
Orestes wrote:1. ...Yes, he was elected democratically (let's not forget that other not-so-ideal leaders were also brought into office through legitimate mechanisms... Mr. Adolf anyone?)...
2. ...so that he can satisfy his own ego and thirst for power...
3. ...Increase in Public Expenditure--yay!
Greed, dementia caused by unlimited political power, intolerance to opposition and free speech--NAY!
The above statements I've selected I am still officially calling BULLSHIT.
1. You can't compare President Hugo Chavez to Adolf Hilter. President Chavez never attempted genocide, nor is he promoting imperialism.
2. You assume his motives, when if you look at what he is doing, there is a much more reasonable motive you could derive: He is trying to flush out the power handled by his most powerful opposition (whom will eventually kill him if things continue to not go their way), and he is trying to form a truly socio-democratic society.
3. What evidence do you have of greed on the President's part? I still think the intolerance to opposition lacks serious proof, and is still hearsay.
4. I wish you wouldn't call President Chavez a dictator. You give Washington ammo to invade Venezuela, or promote another coup with a person who could very well be a dictator when you say that.Freedom is a state of mind...0 -
Chavez closes down radio stations that dissent. He's a dictator and brokendave has no idea what he's talking about. I know people from Venezuela and they don't plan on going back because they have everything to lose and nothing to gain.
Chavez is a socialist totalitarian dictator and he won't relinquish power. Anyone who says otherwise is a dumbass socialist too.All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell0 -
CorporateWhore wrote:Chavez closes down radio stations that dissent. He's a dictator and brokendave has no idea what he's talking about. I know people from Venezuela and they don't plan on going back because they have everything to lose and nothing to gain.
Chavez is a socialist totalitarian dictator and he won't relinquish power. Anyone who says otherwise is a dumbass socialist too.
I'll bet you don't even know you're waning ironic.
And I'm not talking bush.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.0 -
brokendave wrote:The above statements I've selected I am still officially calling BULLSHIT.
1. You can't compare President Hugo Chavez to Adolf Hilter. President Chavez never attempted genocide, nor is he promoting imperialism.
2. You assume his motives, when if you look at what he is doing, there is a much more reasonable motive you could derive: He is trying to flush out the power handled by his most powerful opposition (whom will eventually kill him if things continue to not go their way), and he is trying to form a truly socio-democratic society.
3. What evidence do you have of greed on the President's part? I still think the intolerance to opposition lacks serious proof, and is still hearsay.
4. I wish you wouldn't call President Chavez a dictator. You give Washington ammo to invade Venezuela, or promote another coup with a person who could very well be a dictator when you say that.
I'm not saying that Chavez has commited genocide. My point was that getting into government through legitimate mechanisms is no guarantee of a democratic government, that's why even the most democratic regimes consider the possibility of impeachment.
I do think he is promoting imperialism. He is trying to create an alliance with Bolivia, Ecuador and Cuba to push his "new socialist" project. His main diplomatic currency: petrodollars. Those babies are flying out into these other poorer countries fiscal arks.www.emol.com wrote:En Ecuador, suscribirá un protocolo para comenzar la construcción de una refinería destinada a procesar crudo y en Bolivia ya anunció que planea construir una planta de extracción de líquidos para que ese país pueda desarrollar un polo petroquímico..
I really don't think that by calling Chavez a dictator in this forum, or wherever for that matter, I will be giving the U.S. "causa belice" for invading Venezuela. I won't take that statement back but if you want, I can also declare that the U.S. is also spiraling into a vicious cycle of anti-democratic practices: Messed up elections, the Patriot Act, an uneducated and fanatical stronghold that is unable to criticise the president, a dwindling and generally apathetic civil society, an incompetent opposition by the Democratic Party, a political elite that does not tap into its society's main concerns, etc.
As a final reflection I would like to share with you Jürgen Habermas's indication regarding a successful dialogue: Allow yourself to be coerced by the non-coercive coercion of the best argument. Without the play on words, it pretty much states that one should allow themselves to be convinced by the best arguments. And if the nature of this whole thread lies within the dispute between believing that Chavez is the most democratic leader that the western world has seen or recognizing that he is your average populist leader who just happens to be sitting on a gold mine that gives him more political relevance in a oil-hungy world, well then I'll stick to the latter.
Idealizing and praising Chavez does not make Bush look worse, it just makes you look ignorant. Please, never give a politician your unconditional support or praise. Vote and praise when they do good, but never stop being critical. In politics the only political support that benefits the country is constant critical stance.0 -
CorporateWhore wrote:Chavez closes down radio stations that dissent. He's a dictator and brokendave has no idea what he's talking about. I know people from Venezuela and they don't plan on going back because they have everything to lose and nothing to gain.
Chavez is a socialist totalitarian dictator and he won't relinquish power. Anyone who says otherwise is a dumbass socialist too.
I know two families from Venezuela. One of them still lives there, and they come to the U.S. for business. Even though they are middle class, they don't hate President Chavez. They think he could do some things better, but they like the fact that he is trying to provide social systems for the public.
The other family loves President Chavez, and they live in the U.S.. They have family who still live there, and they visit their Venezuelan family members when they can.
What power should he "relinquish"? All the power he has he was given. I will concede that he is making decisions against the best judgment of his constituency at this point, but I will not concede to the idea that he is a totalitarian dictator because it simply can't be backed up with evidence.
CorporateWhore... I like how you openly admit that you are a "get ahead no matter what", "dog eat dog", "yes man" kinda guy, and that you hold those truths with such pride.Freedom is a state of mind...0 -
brokendave wrote:CorporateWhore is exactly what his name indicates... a "get ahead no matter what", "dog eat dog", "yes man" kinda guy!
And you're a socialist who favors a totalitarian dictator. As long as we're tossing out generalizations...
His socialism aside, his impositions on free speech are what really matter. Saying his opponents are puppets of the U.S. is a massive cop out that only a dictator would claim to keep power. Chavez cuts down speech that he doesn't agree with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez#Free_speech
I recently spoke to a former foreign exchange student friend of mine from Venezuela and he views Chavez's actions as totalitarian.
The people that you know live in the U.S. for a reason: Venezuela's economy is crumbling because of Chavez's actions. He is making businesses state-owned and ruining their efficiency, making them uncompetitive. Venezuela has much potential, but not with a socialist running the show.All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell0 -
In 2007, Chavez issued a decree mandating the deportation of any foreign visitors to Venezuela who criticized himself or his administration.[70]
Yeah. What a nice guy.
In 2006, Reporters Without Borders ranked Venezuela 115th out of 168 countries in its global press freedom listing, sharply down from the last year's rating of 90th.[67] Freedom House currently rates Venezuela as "Not Free" according to its latest survey.[68] The U.S. Senate also passed a resolution condemning the closure of RCTV.[69]All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell0 -
Not much different than what we do here. As this administration along with Congress's blessings widen listenting into America. A cool dicatorship has arrived here and many choose to have a blind eye to it.
I wonder who will get the CONTRACTS for all the data collecting.....hhhmmm...Haliburton! Guess who is overseeing it's application Roberto Gonzales a real winner.
Peace
Earle*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)0 -
g under p wrote:Not much different than what we do here. As this administration along with Congress's blessings widen listenting into America. A cool dicatorship has arrived here and many choose to have a blind eye to it.
I wonder who will get the CONTRACTS for all the data collecting.....hhhmmm...Haliburton! Guess who is overseeing it's application Roberto Gonzales a real winner.
Peace
Earle
None of that made any sense whatsoever.All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell0 -
I could say the same about some of the things you've written!
Peace
Earle*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)0
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