El Presidente Hugo Chavez!

Orestes

brokendave wrote:

Her and I have come to some understandings and common ground I think. I understand that Chavez isn't doing everything the right way. But you should understand that ultimately, what he is trying to accomplish, I support... and I think he is a better leader than many.

Ok, it's good to know that you are sharing a common ground. Now, if you reread what I had posted before you too will see that I also believe that his increase in public expenditure is a good thing.

Being a better leader than many is not THAT good of a praise. After all, we always have trusty Kim Jong-Il to make us all look good.

At this point in the conversation all I care about is knowing what, according to you, is Chavez's "ultimate project". What is that which you support?

brokendave wrote:

If you are going to toss insults... stfu. [...] Che believed in a cause and fought to his death for it. He wasn't perfect, but NOBODY IS! Fuck off, in advance for saying otherwise.

The whole reference was hinting towards the fact that the rationality of your arguments was thrown off by a sort of ideological support. My point was that even the most integral revolutionary--in this case Che--will be ulitmately betrayed by the hype that surrounds them.

But I seem to have touched a nerve there.

Oh and "nobody's perfect"?! Great defense there, if only Saddam had met you before he walked the plank...

even flow?

Drew263 wrote:

Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has been democratically elected, each election gaining a higher percentage of the vote without using coercion, intimidation, or force?


Saddam told us the same thing.

Haven't you heard that twice in almost the last eight years down there too? I know we witnessed it from up here. Yeah, baby!!!!

freedomboy

Orestes wrote:

1. ...Now, if you reread what I had posted before...

2. ..Being a better leader than many is not THAT good of a praise...

3. ...What is that which you support?

4. ...But I seem to have touched a nerve there.

1. I know what you've posted before, I don't have to look back. I know exactly where you stand, and honestly I am doing nothing on this thread but defending the fact that I believe President Chavez deserves better than being compared to dictators and genocidal maniacs. I don't play games when discussing these issues, they are important to me, and they should be important to everyone.

2. Better leader than MOST. I don't care how good of a praise it is... that isn't the reason for this thread anyway.

3. I support systems free from corporate control, I support the idea of sharing basics technologies (running water, electricity generation, health care, housing, telephone, internet) and I do not think they should be left in the hands of capitalism. I support systems in which the majority of people rule, and not the most powerful. I support systems in which diplomacy and anti-globalization agendas are driven... I could go on. Ultimately, I support a system in which there is a true democracy and the workers run business... a place where there is no hierarchy... Chavez is pushing for that kind of agenda, it is unfortunate that he believes he must take certain things away to accomplish this.

4. Yeah, because it pisses me off that people who died fighting for the poor get their faced slapped onto a $20 GAP t-shirt! He is rolling in his fucking grave right now!

Oh, and I also support the free sharing of ideas. I think you can make money off of an idea, but you can't own that idea... it should be shared. Technology would have progressed 10 fold in the U.S. had this been true.

To sum it all up... Viva la Zapatistas!

deadnothingbetter

brokendave wrote:

1. I know what you've posted before, I don't have to look back. I know exactly where you stand, and honestly I am doing nothing on this thread but defending the fact that I believe President Chavez deserves better than being compared to dictators and genocidal maniacs. I don't play games when discussing these issues, they are important to me, and they should be important to everyone.

2. Better leader than MOST. I don't care how good of a praise it is... that isn't the reason for this thread anyway.

3. I support systems free from corporate control, I support the idea of sharing basics technologies (running water, electricity generation, health care, housing, telephone, internet) and I do not think they should be left in the hands of capitalism. I support systems in which the majority of people rule, and not the most powerful. I support systems in which diplomacy and anti-globalization agendas are driven... I could go on. Ultimately, I support a system in which there is a true democracy and the workers run business... a place where there is no hierarchy... Chavez is pushing for that kind of agenda, it is unfortunate that he believes he must take certain things away to accomplish this.

4. Yeah, because it pisses me off that people who died fighting for the poor get their faced slapped onto a $20 GAP t-shirt! He is rolling in his fucking grave right now!

Oh, and I also support the free sharing of ideas. I think you can make money off of an idea, but you can't own that idea... it should be shared. Technology would have progressed 10 fold in the U.S. had this been true.

To sum it all up... Viva la Zapatistas!

i don't like chavez... the dude sucks....

Bu2

brokendave wrote:

1. I know what you've posted before, I don't have to look back. I know exactly where you stand, and honestly I am doing nothing on this thread but defending the fact that I believe President Chavez deserves better than being compared to dictators and genocidal maniacs. I don't play games when discussing these issues, they are important to me, and they should be important to everyone.

2. Better leader than MOST. I don't care how good of a praise it is... that isn't the reason for this thread anyway.

3. I support systems free from corporate control, I support the idea of sharing basics technologies (running water, electricity generation, health care, housing, telephone, internet) and I do not think they should be left in the hands of capitalism. I support systems in which the majority of people rule, and not the most powerful. I support systems in which diplomacy and anti-globalization agendas are driven... I could go on. Ultimately, I support a system in which there is a true democracy and the workers run business... a place where there is no hierarchy... Chavez is pushing for that kind of agenda, it is unfortunate that he believes he must take certain things away to accomplish this.

4. Yeah, because it pisses me off that people who died fighting for the poor get their faced slapped onto a $20 GAP t-shirt! He is rolling in his fucking grave right now!

Oh, and I also support the free sharing of ideas. I think you can make money off of an idea, but you can't own that idea... it should be shared. Technology would have progressed 10 fold in the U.S. had this been true.

To sum it all up... Viva la Zapatistas!

A friend and coworker of mine lived in Venezuela and had one hell of a time there. She spits when she says the name Chavez.

Your points that you make in your post all point to socialism, and I don't say that with any condemnation. Some of your points speak to my soul. But when carried too far, they speak of control.

I agree about the t-shirt 100% though.

#X.

President Hugo Chavez has a trade pact (ALBA) Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas, that includes Bolivia, Brazil, and Cuba is widely seen as an alternatives to the U.S. supported Free Trade Zone of the Americas. Chavez upon swearing in offered NIcaragua low interest loans, discounted oil, and assistance with health care, housing and education.

The new president of Ecuador, Rafael Correa, likwise signed an agreement with Chavez, a bilateral energy deal furthers the growing intergration of the region. There's now a widespread rejection of US backed free trade agreements, growing interest in the Common Market of the South, and a controversial pipeline proposal to link Venezuela, Brazil and ultimately Argentina, Bolivia, Paraguay, and Uruguay. This creates a integrated Latin Amercia no long dependent on the United States, and focuses on solving the problems of the poor. This is straight out of Nation Magazine.

CorporateWhore

#X. wrote:

President Hugo Chavez has a trade pact (ALBA) Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas, that includes Bolivia, Brazil, and Cuba is widely seen as an alternatives to the U.S. supported Free Trade Zone of the Americas. Chavez upon swearing in offered NIcaragua low interest loans, discounted oil, and assistance with health care, housing and education.

The new president of Ecuador, Rafael Correa, likwise signed an agreement with Chavez, a bilateral energy deal furthers the growing intergration of the region. There's now a widespread rejection of US backed free trade agreements, growing interest in the Common Market of the South, and a controversial pipeline proposal to link Venezuela, Brazil and ultimately Argentina, Bolivia, Paraguay, and Uruguay. This creates a integrated Latin Amercia no long dependent on the United States, and focuses on solving the problems of the poor. This is straight out of Nation Magazine.

So we can stop sending them aid now?? Hooray!!

Orestes

brokendave wrote:

I support systems in which the majority of people rule, and not the most powerful.

Ultimately, I support a system in which there is a true democracy and the workers run business... a place where there is no hierarchy...

Then you do not support Chavez's government.

gue_barium

Orestes wrote:

Then you do not support Chavez's government.

There's no such thing in business as 'no hierarchy'. I don't know where brokendave is coming from there.

gue_barium

CorporateWhore wrote:

So we can stop sending them aid now?? Hooray!!

Some people make take your response in the negative, but it is a "hooray!"

You can thank Chavez later.

gue_barium

gue_barium wrote:

Some people make take your response in the negative, but it is a "hooray!"

You can thank Chavez later.

That would be:

Muchos gracias.

cincybearcat

brokendave wrote:

*WARNING* YOU MAY FIND THE FOLLOWING CONTENTS SHOCKING!

Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has been democratically elected, each election gaining a higher percentage of the vote without using coercion, intimidation, or force?

Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez fell victim to a U.S. Government supported coup in 2002, in which the end results were mass riots and the military storming the presidential palace to rescue Hugo Chavez, placing him back into power within less than 72 hours of his capture?

Did you know that a group of middle and upper class Venezuelan citizens tried to pass a presidential recall referendum, in which the end result was 59% voting in favor of President Hugo Chavez?

Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is Vice President of the International Parliament for Safety and Peace, an Organization based in Italy which promotes Safety and Peace among nations by means of voluntary diplomacy?

Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez initiated a program to provide cheaper heating fuel for low income families in several areas of the United States, such as in New York City, which in itself covered 200,000 people?

Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is in the process of nationalizing formerly privatized systems such as banking, electric, and phone?

Did you know that in concern of the extreme circumstances of the upper 9th ward of New Orleans, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez offered aid to the victims of Hurricane Katrina?

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_chavez#Presidency_.281999.E2.80.93present.29

Did you know he is trying to change the laws so that he can remain in power forever?

gue_barium

cincybearcat wrote:

Did you know he is trying to change the laws so that he can remain in power forever?

I heard about that. I don't know it's trustworthiness.

I think you should read the whole thread, and how Chavez is the leading independent from south america forcing the fight against corporate global hemogeny.

In some circles it is known as Imperialism.

CJMST3K

brokendave wrote:

Did you know that a group of middle and upper class Venezuelan citizens tried to pass a presidential recall referendum, in which the end result was 59% voting in favor of President Hugo Chavez?

BAGHDAD, Iraq—The victory rallies are set and the tributes are ready. In an Iraqi yes-or-no vote on re-electing Saddam Hussein, the only cliffhanger in Tuesday's vote is whether the two-decade Iraqi leader will beat his last showing: 99.96 percent.

In Iraq, where many believe war with the United States is coming, that 1995 result for Saddam is now seen as somewhat tepid.

"This time, 100 percent!" worker Mayad Aiwan cried Sunday. "Because the Iraqi people love our leader!"

http://media.www.dailyutahchronicle.com/media/storage/paper244/news/2002/10/14/WorldReport/Iraq-To.Hold.Election.For.Saddam.Hussein-296365.shtml

gue_barium

CJMST3K wrote:

BAGHDAD, Iraq—The victory rallies are set and the tributes are ready. In an Iraqi yes-or-no vote on re-electing Saddam Hussein, the only cliffhanger in Tuesday's vote is whether the two-decade Iraqi leader will beat his last showing: 99.96 percent.

In Iraq, where many believe war with the United States is coming, that 1995 result for Saddam is now seen as somewhat tepid.

"This time, 100 percent!" worker Mayad Aiwan cried Sunday. "Because the Iraqi people love our leader!"

http://media.www.dailyutahchronicle.com/media/storage/paper244/news/2002/10/14/WorldReport/Iraq-To.Hold.Election.For.Saddam.Hussein-296365.shtml

To compare Venezuela to Iraq is a farce. And you know it.

CJMST3K

gue_barium wrote:

To compare Venezuela to Iraq is a farce. And you know it.

I'm not comparing countries - thus it's not a farce. Its just that one can find percentages to prove almost anything.

I believe that Hugo probaby was elected by the people (after an attempt to overthrow the previous government, that is). However to imply it was effortless and organic is another thing. He's not this sweet guy you seem to think he is...

"Here is an entry from Alex Boyd, one of the great latin American journalists and bloggers in the world today and a regular read of mine. Alex is an expert in Venezuelan politics from a street level and not a lacky of the dictator like much of the propaganda you see spun on the web. Alex Boyd provides actual photos and images from the real events in the end of democracy in Venezuela.

“This week we have been treated to a unique spectacle: the illegal decision of Hugo Chavez to close RCTV, Venezuela´s oldest and largest TV network, has predictably drawn a string of criticism from international human rights NGOs, the European Parliament and the US Congress. It would be rather difficult to find an issue that can achieve such consensus from all sides of the political divide. For curtailing freedom of expression is one such issue amongst the world’s democrats, and as in the UK anti benefit fraud campaign “no ifs, no buts…” if an elected leader of a given country is caught closing a media conglomerate solely on the basis of personal animosity to its editorial lines, said leader forfeits the privilege to call himself/herself democratic. Quite simple really, for one of the fundamental principles of democracy is the right to freely express one´s thoughts, read the right to criticise elected civil servants. When civil servants become deranged, letting the reins of galloping megalomania loose, and convincing themselves of their utter infallibility they must believe feasible and acceptable doing with a country and all its citizens what they please, as if it were a personal fiefdom. Then they go round closing TV networks, confiscating private property, nationalising industries, pilling up weapons, fuelling narcoguerrillas and funding continental `revolutions,´ imprisoning and assassinating political foes, and espousing a characteristically imperial behaviour. History is chock full of examples, Hugo Chavez has become just one of the latest.”

gue_barium

CJMST3K wrote:

I'm not comparing countries - thus it's not a farce. Its just that one can find percentages to prove almost anything.

I believe that Hugo probaby was elected by the people (after an attempt to overthrow the previous government, that is). However to imply it was effortless and organic is another thing. He's not this sweet guy you seem to think he is...

"Here is an entry from Alex Boyd, one of the great latin American journalists and bloggers in the world today and a regular read of mine. Alex is an expert in Venezuelan politics from a street level and not a lacky of the dictator like much of the propaganda you see spun on the web. Alex Boyd provides actual photos and images from the real events in the end of democracy in Venezuela.

“This week we have been treated to a unique spectacle: the illegal decision of Hugo Chavez to close RCTV, Venezuela´s oldest and largest TV network, has predictably drawn a string of criticism from international human rights NGOs, the European Parliament and the US Congress. It would be rather difficult to find an issue that can achieve such consensus from all sides of the political divide. For curtailing freedom of expression is one such issue amongst the world’s democrats, and as in the UK anti benefit fraud campaign “no ifs, no buts…” if an elected leader of a given country is caught closing a media conglomerate solely on the basis of personal animosity to its editorial lines, said leader forfeits the privilege to call himself/herself democratic. Quite simple really, for one of the fundamental principles of democracy is the right to freely express one´s thoughts, read the right to criticise elected civil servants. When civil servants become deranged, letting the reins of galloping megalomania loose, and convincing themselves of their utter infallibility they must believe feasible and acceptable doing with a country and all its citizens what they please, as if it were a personal fiefdom. Then they go round closing TV networks, confiscating private property, nationalising industries, pilling up weapons, fuelling narcoguerrillas and funding continental `revolutions,´ imprisoning and assassinating political foes, and espousing a characteristically imperial behaviour. History is chock full of examples, Hugo Chavez has become just one of the latest.”

LOL.

this is old news. refuted, tossed out, ridiculous.

also, i don't think any guy is sweet. i don't swing that way.

CJMST3K

gue_barium wrote:

LOL.

this is old news. refuted, tossed out, ridiculous.

also, i don't think any guy is sweet. i don't swing that way.

So he hasn't jailed journalists, nor is he nationalizing oil production, nor did he threaten to take-over/nationalize food retailers unless they sell certain foods at certain prices?

...and some of us DO swing that way.

gue_barium

CJMST3K wrote:

So he hasn't jailed journalists, nor is he nationalizing oil production, nor did he threaten to take-over/nationalize food retailers unless they sell certain foods at certain prices?

...and some of us DO swing that way.

Do you have nice buns?

If I'm in Venezuela can I buy some fresh ones in the street corner bakery?

I don't really want to argue with you on this, because we both know the answer.

freedomboy

Orestes wrote:

Then you do not support Chavez's government.

No, I do support it because he is building (Intentionally or not, it doesn't matter) towards what I support.