El Presidente Hugo Chavez!
freedomboy
Posts: 129
*WARNING* YOU MAY FIND THE FOLLOWING CONTENTS SHOCKING!
Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has been democratically elected, each election gaining a higher percentage of the vote without using coercion, intimidation, or force?
Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez fell victim to a U.S. Government supported coup in 2002, in which the end results were mass riots and the military storming the presidential palace to rescue Hugo Chavez, placing him back into power within less than 72 hours of his capture?
Did you know that a group of middle and upper class Venezuelan citizens tried to pass a presidential recall referendum, in which the end result was 59% voting in favor of President Hugo Chavez?
Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is Vice President of the International Parliament for Safety and Peace, an Organization based in Italy which promotes Safety and Peace among nations by means of voluntary diplomacy?
Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez initiated a program to provide cheaper heating fuel for low income families in several areas of the United States, such as in New York City, which in itself covered 200,000 people?
Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is in the process of nationalizing formerly privatized systems such as banking, electric, and phone?
Did you know that in concern of the extreme circumstances of the upper 9th ward of New Orleans, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez offered aid to the victims of Hurricane Katrina?
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_chavez#Presidency_.281999.E2.80.93present.29
Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has been democratically elected, each election gaining a higher percentage of the vote without using coercion, intimidation, or force?
Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez fell victim to a U.S. Government supported coup in 2002, in which the end results were mass riots and the military storming the presidential palace to rescue Hugo Chavez, placing him back into power within less than 72 hours of his capture?
Did you know that a group of middle and upper class Venezuelan citizens tried to pass a presidential recall referendum, in which the end result was 59% voting in favor of President Hugo Chavez?
Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is Vice President of the International Parliament for Safety and Peace, an Organization based in Italy which promotes Safety and Peace among nations by means of voluntary diplomacy?
Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez initiated a program to provide cheaper heating fuel for low income families in several areas of the United States, such as in New York City, which in itself covered 200,000 people?
Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is in the process of nationalizing formerly privatized systems such as banking, electric, and phone?
Did you know that in concern of the extreme circumstances of the upper 9th ward of New Orleans, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez offered aid to the victims of Hurricane Katrina?
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_chavez#Presidency_.281999.E2.80.93present.29
Freedom is a state of mind...
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But with the use of a cult of personality.
Did you know that Hugo Chavez attempted a coup in the 1980s against the democratically elected Venezuelan government?
Yes and we've done the same thing here in California to Govenor Gray Davis. If it's the law and it's allowed its the law no matter how much you may dislike it.
Did you know I'm president of all my teddy bears? Oh please.
Yes and he got all the media attention he hoped for. He had a selfish motivation to embarras the US.
See previous.
It's not that I disagree with you that he's trying to do a good thing and call attention to how bad the administraton of the US is. But please don't paint a halo on the man just because he is our enemy's enemy. Politicians are all compromised individuals not saints or saviors.
100% agreed. And just because he's "not Bush" does not make him a saint. It's the oversimpification of thought that get's people into touble by just assuming that the opposite of Bush must be the shining path.
What is that supposed to mean? He has charisma, so his re-elections are corrupt?
Yes, he did jail time for it... Then he came back and ran for President, and won. The reason I pointed this out wasn't to demonize anyone, but to show that his people FOUGHT TO PUT HIM BACK IN POWER!
Again, the point wasn't to demonize, but to show that HIS PEOPLE GOT THE VOTE OUT!
Name the last U.S. President who cared enough to be a member of a foreign council for peace and diplomacy?
His intention isn't to embarrass the U.S... His intention is to show the world that there is a better way. Embarrassing the U.S. is just part of the fun in doing so.
I detest the idea that all politicians are "compromised individuals" simply based on their profession. While this may be true for most of the "successful" U.S. politicians, there are many good people out there. It is intellectually misguided to judge a politician on his or her profession alone. To make an educated judgment, you must look at their record to determine where their interests lie.
In the case of Hugo Chavez, his record proves that he is working for the working people.
My theory is that it defuses the potential to "war" it out, and take it by force at a later date. "Force" can be a multitude of things, not necessarily military.
The big fish needs to eat little fish, or it sinks to the bottom and gets fed upon.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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Now, on the positive side, I love how Chavez is using a lot of those petro-dollars to increase public expenditure.
He is also spending a lot of money building up troops and expanding his war arsenal.
The thing is that despite the propaganda, it's not difficult to understand that Chavez is initiating some pretty fundamental reforms that are turning his rule into an authocratic regime. Yes, he was elected democratically (let's not forget that other not-so-ideal leaders were also brought into office through legitimate mechanisms... Mr. Adolf anyone?) but he's betraying the democratic structure that legitimates his power so that he can satisfy his own ego and thirst for power.
Increase in Public Expenditure--yay!
Greed, dementia caused by unlimited political power, intolerance to opposition and free speech--NAY!
Why is this tactic suspect of corruption? That is like saying that if President Bush had cut taxes for the working poor, and put the burden on the top 1% of U.S. citizenship, that he would be suspect ulterior motives.
It would be ill advised not to arm yourself when you are in Washington's cross hairs.
I am officially classifying your final statement as BULLSHIT until you can provide factual analysis and reporting of these accusations.
The television station he refused to renew actively participated in the coupe of 2002, and have been a constant perpetrator of libel and slander against President Hugo Chavez.
"Just when I thought that I was out they pull me back in"
Hmmm, right. I'm guessing you've never heard of Maisanta List and the Tascon List. However, if you don't have the time, I'll brief you in: those lists contain the names of those who registered to vote in favor of the 2003 Referendum. Well, guess what, those persons have lost their jobs, their retirement pensions, health care benefits, can't leave the country and etc, etc. And people working for the government HAVE TO attend every single march, speech and act held by the government and they are obliged to wear the red t-shirt. And yes, if you don't go you can pretty much kiss your job godbye (this happened to a friend of mine)
Did you know that during the beginning of these events in April 2002, 13 people from the opposition that were peacefully marching towards the Palacio de Miraflores (Venezuela's White House) were killed by Chavez' hitmen and that all TV networks were blocked and they couldn't broadcast the shootings?? Still today nobody has been prosecuted for those deaths, regardless of petitions by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and numerous local human rights organizations
The nerve of the middle class!! How dare they pretend that a President has to rule for all its citizens, even those in the opposition
So all these weapons he's been buying lately are a clear effort in this direction. Maybe he'll use the Mirage he'll buy from Sarkozy to throw flowers and peace messages throughout the world.
Did you know that Venezuela's social programs for the poor from Venezuela are facing severe shortcomings these days? In the supermarket Chavez government implemented for the poor which are called MERCAL you can't even find milk these days. You know, instead of funding the poor from the US he sould provide better care for the poor of his country and keep his promises about a massive housing program, 'cause last time I check promoting squatting does not constitute a housing program.
Did you know that this is not true simply because electricity never got to be privatized?? The only private electricy company was Electricidad de Caracas (provided to Venezuela's main city) and it was never public. About the phone, well yeah it's becoming public again, which is great!! I'm guessing you never had to get a phone line in Venezuela during the 80's. In an optimistic scenario you could spend 2 years waiting for a CANTV technician to come by to your house to install a phone line. In those years (man, we spent like 5 years without a phone line) selling a property with a phone line could increase its value like 10%. But what it is really important is that the State controls CANTV, nevermind the quality of the service, right? And banking? I'm sorry, but Venezuela's states always had banking. There's always been both types of banks: public banks and private banks. What's really great and a definite "improvement" is that the upcoming Chavez constitutional reform will remove the Central Bank autonomy, fantastic!! Now he'll print money whenever he feels like it!
Did you know that in concern of the extreme circumstances of the upper 9th ward of New Orleans, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez offered aid to the victims of Hurricane Katrina?
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_chavez#Presidency_.281999.E2.80.93present.29[/quote]
...it's not difficult to understand that Chavez is initiating some pretty fundamental reforms that are turning his rule into an autocratic regime... but he's betraying the democratic structure that legitimates his power so that he can satisfy his own ego and thirst for power...
Why is this bullshit? OK I'll give you some proof, can I provide links? Only if you read Spanish. Complete coverage of Venezuela's affairs takes place in Spanish.
OK, if you work for the goverment YOU HAVE TO attend all government acts is not very democratic.
He demanded Congress to sign an act that gives him power to rule by decree for 18 month, of course he's got it, so nowadays Congress members' paycash is like unemployment insurance. He's rewriting by himself the Constitution, his brother (Minister of Education, because well he's the brother of the President, he's got zero credential to hold that position) and his father (governor of his birthsate Barinas, again just because!) maybe chipping in, other than that nobody knows a thing about it.
Whatelse, ohh there's no power division anymore. Justice is just an extension of Chavez and well the Congress I've already told you.
He's about to pass an act which eliminated Universities autonomy, meaning central government will decide what can be taught and what not. This is one of the main reasons for students' more recent protests and rallies. Universities are supposed to be places for ample debates and freedom of thought and speech...
Ohhh, workers in factories (public or private) have to attend mandatory lectures on Marxism and Socialism. The same goes for the military (which by the Constitution cannot be associated with any particular ideological framework) and when the march they have to yell "Motherland, Socialism or Death"
What else? About RCTV. There's a tiny issue with the shutting down of the network. Yes, the network clearly had an opposition editorial line. Yes the network did not broadcast Chavez return to power in 2002, after the failed Coup. But guess what, not one of the private networks broadcasted. But the only one to be punished is RCTV?? Why? Because it refused to genuflex to the Government. Venevision and Televen (also oppositors) got scared and changed their editorial line, actually BIG BUCKS were involved. And yet there is another small issue, which is legal: Venezuela's Constitution (written by Chavez government) states that for a Government to take down a broadcasting license has to inform the media outlet using such signal with two years of advance: they should have informed RCTV in 2005 that they were not getting their contract renewed. But you wanna know how they found out? Simple: during Chavez Christmas national address (December 26th, 2006) he said the following: "to RCTV I tell you, start shutting down your equipment 'cause after you'll be gone". Ohh, and Venezuela's Supreme Justice Court authorize the confiscation of all of RCTV equipment, so the new public channel (TVES) has cameras and such to broadcast with.
Just so you know, 70% of Venezuelans were against the shutting down of RCTV, it is Venezuelans most beloved channel...
Furthermore, Chavez now decided that Cable TV has to broadcast all of his speeches to the Nation, which happen whenever he feels like it. Why? Very simple, 'cause now RCTV is on the air again via cable.
These statements were not meant to be biased. There are a lot of people who buy the rhetoric that comes from Washington about President Hugo Chavez, and I wanted to bring up some points that they may not have otherwise heard.
First of all, this appears to be hearsay, as I can't find anything on the topic. If this is true, I would say that the President's could be doing it a better way... although, he is already doing it better than the US or any other westernized nation.
This is a direct misrepresentation of what really happened there. The group was in the hundreds, not 13. Every independent study I've read of the situation indicate that those people marched into a Pro-Chavez rally, where violence ensued. They all can only be so lucky to see 13 people shot when everyone in Venezuela carries guns.
Your credibility is lacking after that last statement.
The reason I pointed out that referendum was to show that he WON!
What direction would that be? Imperialism? No. Defense against Washington? Maybe. We can't read his mind.
You can complain all you want, but government can't please everyone. Ask yourself this?
If given the following options, would you vote for President Hugo Chavez or one of the past 4 US presidents (Bush Jr., Clinton, Bush Sr., Reagan?
My mistake then, I must have misread an article. The rest was correct though, right? As for the quality of service that is in question, it is up to his constituents to let him know that it is a major issue! They must stand up and demand better phone service!
JEFF! I think Tony Snow is on CNN! Go swallow more of his bullshit!
You seem willing to buy the socialist claptrap and swallow it hook, line & sinker. Thanks for sharing.
What is "it"? Getting people to vote? Why is your focus on numbers / percentage of voters? How meaningful are the numbers if coersion is involved?
Since I'm philisophically the opposite of a socialist, I don't love any of the above choices, but would choose any of the 4 US presidents over Chavez without hesitation.
I can read spanish, and if it is too complicated, there is babble fish...
A lot of what you've said here, I've not read about. I will have to do an independent study of this. As far as his 18 month reign, he is building a socialist movement may work well this time... I don't think we can tell his motives until his is finished... but until that time, I understand that you as concerned citizens must speak out against this... Just please be careful not to give Washington any ammunition for invading Venezuela or supporting another coup... please realize that is the worst thing that could happen to Venezuela.
No. Where did you get this statistic? RCTV? ROFL!
Sounds like a functional idea to me. It should be the same way in the US.
"i love wikipedia because ANYONE in the world can edit it, so you know you're getting the best possible information." - Michael Scott
Who's "all"?
CaterinaA is certainly not relying on Wiki. She has, in previous threads, provided spanish language links.
I could amend that and say simply... People are a whole lot more effictive in giving out honest and truthful information when it is not at the point of a gun.
1. Coercion is NOT involved in his elections.
2. "It" - Running the country for the benefit of the people. His motives are not of self gain, or of the gain of the wealthy, unlike most westernized countries.
OK, well I'm posting my rethoric as a Latin American and as a Venezuelan at heart and as somebody devoted in her work to political current affairs.
The rest was not totally correct, 'cause as I said before, there's always been public banking in Venezuela.
Yes, of course it is the duty of the constituency to let Chavez know about the quality of the service, but why if CANTV was working fine must it be returned to the State. The service provided was of great quality and affordable for everybody. I'm sorry but I don't see the benefit in returning an enterprise to State's control just for the sake of doing so.
OMG. The Wikipedia debate... I would trust wikipedia before I would trust ANY "official" encylopedia...
"There is no truth when the profit motive is involved." - me
Wikipedia isn't my source anyway... I just posted it because it looks like a well compiled resource. My sources are independent news articles and research.
So was Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro...etc etc etc.
Everything is great in a totalitarian regime as long as you toe the party line, have an opposing viewpoint... you're dead.
Maybe it's just me, but I like choosing for myself whatever I can rather than leaving all my decisions to the great and powerful government leader whether it's Bush or Castro or Chavez or whomever choose your favorite, the less involvement they have in my life the better.
There are no classes in that style of government because everyone is poor but the government. Everyones got a job, but its the most inefficient means of distributing resources and getting work done.
If you're looking for better socialism, look to Western Europe, they do it as well as anyone combining socialism with capitalism...but they have been at it longer as well.
Come on, you can't be serious. You would be OK with paid cable TV services to be interrupted to broadcast a President's speech whenever the President feels like it????
I see we have no common ground to discuss, so I'll leave it here. I'm a democratic person at heart and I believe in social democracy, the way it is implemented say in Chile, Italia, Germany. That's as left as my convictions allow me to go.
People in the US are denied passports and state retirement pensions all the time, and many of them have signed petitions again George W. Bush... does that mean there was a government conspiracy... no. It is still hearsay.
I've heard good things of Chile. A good friend of mine wants to move there (her parents are Chilean). However, is it not true that Chile has had the good graces and help of the US government for almost 20 years? i.e. They have a lot of revenue coming in?
Don't play on our general ignorance. I want to learn about south america, and what better way to do it than to speak with someone who has lived there... Please paint the entire picture from now on. What you did was misleading a least.
Was MERCOSUR a private program? When transitioning systems from private to public, they will have serious issues that will need to be worked out as quickly as possible. If he isn't doing it quickly... then the people should stand up and demand it.
A understandable concern if you are middle class, or if you are of any intellect.
Understood. I can respect that.
Clinton was a puppet of giant global corporations who supported NAFTA and "free trade". He had no one's interests at heart but his own. In fact, the only good thing to be said about him was that he was an excellent diplomat (minus the Iraqi factory bombing).
Such systems should not be left in the hand of the profit motive. It results in over pricing, less rights for consumers, an inability to receive such services for those who can't afford it, etc... It is a huge mistake in the US that we ever allowed our phone, water, electric, and gas to be privatized.
Do not compare President Hugo Chavez to them please. He has not committed genocide, or killed any mass of people for that matter, nor would he.
You can keep Castro out of that group too for that matter.
I agree that they have done a great job of combining socialism with capitalism, but they still lack democracy (as does the US).
Alas, democracy seems impossible when combined with capitalism...
Of coarse I've read about that, but I've not read of many of the actions he has been taking using that permission.
It isn't just the Bush administration speaking out against Venezuela, it is the party line of both Democrats and Republicans. Where as they have no reason to invade Venezuela right now, it doesn't mean they won't have a reason. They may just start giving billions in military equipment to a dictatorship, willing to attempt a coup. This isn't unlikely if you look at the history of US foreign policy.
Okay, I will look into that. I don't think a channel should be able to perform spin and spread farce propaganda to further a political or economic means.
Sure! Participation is something greatly lacking in American the socio-political realm! Anything to further promote participation is a good thing in my book!
If find that disheartening. I think you can learn something from anyone. Even though you are against Chavez, I have learned here, as have you. What is the harm in continuing discussion? Do we have to agree?
I believe in democracy too, I just don't think it exists anywhere. Capitalism has drowned true democracy. We are the result of years of imperialism, capitalism, spin, and oligarchy.
I believe in socialism as a free way to live. Capitalism is not working, and it never did. Unfortunately, it will be too difficult to re-mold it for the better... we are going to have to change it by the force of the people... such has happened in Venezuela... which despite is shortcomings, I am optimistic about.
OK, are you trying to tell me that if you are a member of the Democratic Party and a Republican is in office a retirement pension can be denied just for disliking the affiliation? I won't go further with this point- as I said, check out Maisanta List.
Chile has not had any particular help of the US government. It is a country that's been lucky to have good Presidents that have promoted a consistent policy devoted to increase the well-being of its citizens while respecting their personal freedoms and property rights. Actually, Chile was a rotating member of the UN Security Council and voted against the US invading Irak.
I'm sorry if I sounded arrogant, it wasn't my intention at all, seriously
Whatever you want to know about South America, please do ask me, I'll do me best to provide and answer.
No, MERCOSUR is South America's equivalent to the European Union. It is a trade and cooperation agreement between Argentina, Brazil. Paraguay and Uruguay. Chile is partial member 'cause MERCOSUR would be a step-back in Chile's trade policies. Anyway, Venezuela was accepted as a full member in December 2005, however so far all Chavez has done is engage in fights with Lula (Brazil's President) with Michelle Bachelet (Chile's President) and has fullfilled ZERO of the requisites he agreed to.
This is a concern regardless of whatever social strata you belong to. Cause the paralization (is this word correct?) of those areas leads to unemployment, which always is more damaging to the have nots
Thanks
Well, I see him in a slight different manner. You asked me who would I vote for and gave 4 choices, so I chose
This can be prevented with good regulation.
Here's the link about Chavez given permission to rule by decree for 18months. I found the link in this page which is strongly favorable to Chavez to prevent bias allegations.
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=2207
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/070130/3/2wmt8.html (and this from Reuters).
http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/international/ticker/detail/Chavez_gets_powers_to_rule_by_decree.html?siteSect=143&sid=7484621&cKey=1170276837000 (Reuters again)
I forgot to tell you that despite our lack of commong ground to debate I'm a very stubborn person, so I won't give up in convincing you
I believe in social democracy: meaning a democracy with a good mix of private activity and a solid State. I believe in private enterprise, in promoting and respecting it, in promoting private innovation, reserach, development, in creating a safety net for citizens, in providing an relatively egalitarian starting point, you know, governments should enable the equality of opportunities. But I'm strongly opposed against any system that hinders personal preferences and personal liberties (which are human rights, by the way).
OK; I'll get back to you during the week. Now I have to run, I have to finish a paper I'm writing at work and I have to finish it today.
Ahhhhhhhh..men
My statements were called bullshit and I felt deeply offended.
So today I was going to start compiling a list of sources to back up my statements and what do I see? CaterinaA's amazing effort.
Brokendave, my friend, this girl is brilliant, she gave you all kinds of evidence--theoretical and empirical--which saved me the effort of having to provide you with information that would not have been half as compelling.
I understand that you are deeply disappointed with the U.S. government. I am too, but more so with its civil society who, in my opinion, has not risen to the occasion and made its voice heard regarding all of the atrocities that the administration is undertaking. This, though, does not make Chavez a better person. He is still a "caudillo" and anti-democratic at heart.
Since I too live in Chile I don't feel like I have to compare Chavez to Bush to determine what kind of a person he is. His actions, reforms and apparent motivations speak for themselves.
Please, understand, Chavez is not as good as you want him to be.
Oh, and are you still calling my statements bullshit? If you're not, I ask you to please make it known to all.
That's all for now.
Oh, and if you want to get a glimpse of what those presidential messages are like take a lookie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwotG4uNDtY . That's the shortest one I found on youtube, there are 10 minute ones if you're still interested.