El Presidente Hugo Chavez!

freedomboy

*WARNING* YOU MAY FIND THE FOLLOWING CONTENTS SHOCKING!

Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has been democratically elected, each election gaining a higher percentage of the vote without using coercion, intimidation, or force?

Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez fell victim to a U.S. Government supported coup in 2002, in which the end results were mass riots and the military storming the presidential palace to rescue Hugo Chavez, placing him back into power within less than 72 hours of his capture?

Did you know that a group of middle and upper class Venezuelan citizens tried to pass a presidential recall referendum, in which the end result was 59% voting in favor of President Hugo Chavez?

Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is Vice President of the International Parliament for Safety and Peace, an Organization based in Italy which promotes Safety and Peace among nations by means of voluntary diplomacy?

Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez initiated a program to provide cheaper heating fuel for low income families in several areas of the United States, such as in New York City, which in itself covered 200,000 people?

Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is in the process of nationalizing formerly privatized systems such as banking, electric, and phone?

Did you know that in concern of the extreme circumstances of the upper 9th ward of New Orleans, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez offered aid to the victims of Hurricane Katrina?

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_chavez#Presidency_.281999.E2.80.93present.29

StupidHumanBeings

brokendave wrote:

YOU MAY FIND THIS SHOCKING DC!

Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has been democratically elected, each election gaining a higher percentage of the vote without using coercion, intimidation, or force?

But with the use of a cult of personality.

brokendave wrote:

Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez fell victim to a U.S. Government supported coup in 2002, in which the end results were mass riots and the military storming the presidential palace to rescue Hugo Chavez, placing him back into power within less than 72 hours of his capture?

Did you know that Hugo Chavez attempted a coup in the 1980s against the democratically elected Venezuelan government?

brokendave wrote:

Did you know that a group of middle and upper class Venezuelan citizens tried to pass a presidential recall referendum, in which the end result was 59% voting in favor of President Hugo Chavez?

Yes and we've done the same thing here in California to Govenor Gray Davis. If it's the law and it's allowed its the law no matter how much you may dislike it.

brokendave wrote:

Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is Vice President of the International Parliament for Safety and Peace, an Organization based in Italy which promotes Safety and Peace among nations by means of voluntary diplomacy?

Did you know I'm president of all my teddy bears? Oh please.

brokendave wrote:

Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez initiated a program to provide cheaper heating fuel for low income families in several areas of the United States, such as in New York City, which in itself covered 200,000 people?

Yes and he got all the media attention he hoped for. He had a selfish motivation to embarras the US.

brokendave wrote:

Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is in the process of nationalizing formerly privatized systems such as banking, electric, and phone?

brokendave wrote:

Did you know that in concern of the extreme circumstances of the upper 9th ward of New Orleans, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez offered aid to the victims of Hurricane Katrina?

See previous.



It's not that I disagree with you that he's trying to do a good thing and call attention to how bad the administraton of the US is. But please don't paint a halo on the man just because he is our enemy's enemy. Politicians are all compromised individuals not saints or saviors.

Bu2

Neither is Bush.

StupidHumanBeings

Bu2 wrote:

Neither is Bush.

100% agreed. And just because he's "not Bush" does not make him a saint. It's the oversimpification of thought that get's people into touble by just assuming that the opposite of Bush must be the shining path.

freedomboy

StupidHumanBeings wrote:

But with the use of a cult of personality.

What is that supposed to mean? He has charisma, so his re-elections are corrupt?

StupidHumanBeings wrote:

Did you know that Hugo Chavez attempted a coup in the 1980s against the democratically elected Venezuelan government?

Yes, he did jail time for it... Then he came back and ran for President, and won. The reason I pointed this out wasn't to demonize anyone, but to show that his people FOUGHT TO PUT HIM BACK IN POWER!

StupidHumanBeings wrote:

Yes and we've done the same thing here in California to Gove[r]nor Gray Davis. If it's the law and it's allowed its the law no matter how much you may dislike it.

Again, the point wasn't to demonize, but to show that HIS PEOPLE GOT THE VOTE OUT!

StupidHumanBeings wrote:

Did you know I'm president of all my teddy bears? Oh please.

Name the last U.S. President who cared enough to be a member of a foreign council for peace and diplomacy?

StupidHumanBeings wrote:

Yes and he got all the media attention he hoped for. He had a selfish motivation to embarras the US.

His intention isn't to embarrass the U.S... His intention is to show the world that there is a better way. Embarrassing the U.S. is just part of the fun in doing so.

StupidHumanBeings wrote:

...But please don't paint a halo on the man just because he is our enemy's enemy. Politicians are all compromised individuals not saints or saviors.

I detest the idea that all politicians are "compromised individuals" simply based on their profession. While this may be true for most of the "successful" U.S. politicians, there are many good people out there. It is intellectually misguided to judge a politician on his or her profession alone. To make an educated judgment, you must look at their record to determine where their interests lie.

In the case of Hugo Chavez, his record proves that he is working for the working people.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

I like how Chavez offered all kinds of cheap oil to Bush and he refused.

My theory is that it defuses the potential to "war" it out, and take it by force at a later date. "Force" can be a multitude of things, not necessarily military.

The big fish needs to eat little fish, or it sinks to the bottom and gets fed upon.

Eliot Rosewater

StupidHumanBeings wrote:

100% agreed. And just because he's "not Bush" does not make him a saint. It's the oversimpification of thought that get's people into touble by just assuming that the opposite of Bush must be the shining path.

I think Hugo Chavez is a saint....compared to GWB. Or anyone in his administration for that matter.

Orestes

Guys, Chavez won the democratic election because he managed to tap into the accumulated discontent that had built up within the majority of Venezuela's poorest citizens. Now, if you're not familiar with latinamerican political tactics I'd ask you all to brush up on your political theory and look up "populism" or "neo-populism" to understand how Chavez manages to rally support.

Now, on the positive side, I love how Chavez is using a lot of those petro-dollars to increase public expenditure.

He is also spending a lot of money building up troops and expanding his war arsenal.

The thing is that despite the propaganda, it's not difficult to understand that Chavez is initiating some pretty fundamental reforms that are turning his rule into an authocratic regime. Yes, he was elected democratically (let's not forget that other not-so-ideal leaders were also brought into office through legitimate mechanisms... Mr. Adolf anyone?) but he's betraying the democratic structure that legitimates his power so that he can satisfy his own ego and thirst for power.

Increase in Public Expenditure--yay!
Greed, dementia caused by unlimited political power, intolerance to opposition and free speech--NAY!

freedomboy

Orestes wrote:

...Guys, Chavez won the democratic election because he managed to tap into the accumulated discontent that had built up within the majority of Venezuela's poorest citizens...

Why is this tactic suspect of corruption? That is like saying that if President Bush had cut taxes for the working poor, and put the burden on the top 1% of U.S. citizenship, that he would be suspect ulterior motives.

Orestes wrote:

He is also spending a lot of money building up troops and expanding his war arsenal.

It would be ill advised not to arm yourself when you are in Washington's cross hairs.

Orestes wrote:

...it's not difficult to understand that Chavez is initiating some pretty fundamental reforms that are turning his rule into an autocratic regime... but he's betraying the democratic structure that legitimates his power so that he can satisfy his own ego and thirst for power...

I am officially classifying your final statement as BULLSHIT until you can provide factual analysis and reporting of these accusations.

The television station he refused to renew actively participated in the coupe of 2002, and have been a constant perpetrator of libel and slander against President Hugo Chavez.

CaterinaA

brokendave wrote:

*WARNING* YOU MAY FIND THE FOLLOWING CONTENTS SHOCKING!

"Just when I thought that I was out they pull me back in" . First and foremost, I am Chilean (before somebody pulls the Bush/Republican card), I grew up in Venezuela, and yes I'm very shocked 'cause well it is as unbiased as Powell's statements at the UN General Assembly .

brokendave wrote:

*Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has been democratically elected, each election gaining a higher percentage of the vote without using coercion, intimidation, or force?

Hmmm, right. I'm guessing you've never heard of Maisanta List and the Tascon List. However, if you don't have the time, I'll brief you in: those lists contain the names of those who registered to vote in favor of the 2003 Referendum. Well, guess what, those persons have lost their jobs, their retirement pensions, health care benefits, can't leave the country and etc, etc. And people working for the government HAVE TO attend every single march, speech and act held by the government and they are obliged to wear the red t-shirt. And yes, if you don't go you can pretty much kiss your job godbye (this happened to a friend of mine)

brokendave wrote:

*Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez fell victim to a U.S. Government supported coup in 2002, in which the end results were mass riots and the military storming the presidential palace to rescue Hugo Chavez, placing him back into power within less than 72 hours of his capture?

Did you know that during the beginning of these events in April 2002, 13 people from the opposition that were peacefully marching towards the Palacio de Miraflores (Venezuela's White House) were killed by Chavez' hitmen and that all TV networks were blocked and they couldn't broadcast the shootings?? Still today nobody has been prosecuted for those deaths, regardless of petitions by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and numerous local human rights organizations

brokendave wrote:

*Did you know that a group of middle and upper class Venezuelan citizens tried to pass a presidential recall referendum, in which the end result was 59% voting in favor of President Hugo Chavez?

The nerve of the middle class!! How dare they pretend that a President has to rule for all its citizens, even those in the opposition . Seriously, the Referendum petition, which is included in Venezuela's Constitution allows for this procedure, and I'm sorry but this is just simple statistics: when you collect over 3 million signatures it can't just be middle and upper class, sorry, Venezuela's poverty rates make it impossible.

brokendave wrote:

*Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is Vice President of the International Parliament for Safety and Peace, an Organization based in Italy which promotes Safety and Peace among nations by means of voluntary diplomacy?

So all these weapons he's been buying lately are a clear effort in this direction. Maybe he'll use the Mirage he'll buy from Sarkozy to throw flowers and peace messages throughout the world.

brokendave wrote:

*Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez initiated a program to provide cheaper heating fuel for low income families in several areas of the United States, such as in New York City, which in itself covered 200,000 people?

Did you know that Venezuela's social programs for the poor from Venezuela are facing severe shortcomings these days? In the supermarket Chavez government implemented for the poor which are called MERCAL you can't even find milk these days. You know, instead of funding the poor from the US he sould provide better care for the poor of his country and keep his promises about a massive housing program, 'cause last time I check promoting squatting does not constitute a housing program.

brokendave wrote:

*Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is in the process of nationalizing formerly privatized systems such as banking, electric, and phone?

Did you know that this is not true simply because electricity never got to be privatized?? The only private electricy company was Electricidad de Caracas (provided to Venezuela's main city) and it was never public. About the phone, well yeah it's becoming public again, which is great!! I'm guessing you never had to get a phone line in Venezuela during the 80's. In an optimistic scenario you could spend 2 years waiting for a CANTV technician to come by to your house to install a phone line. In those years (man, we spent like 5 years without a phone line) selling a property with a phone line could increase its value like 10%. But what it is really important is that the State controls CANTV, nevermind the quality of the service, right? And banking? I'm sorry, but Venezuela's states always had banking. There's always been both types of banks: public banks and private banks. What's really great and a definite "improvement" is that the upcoming Chavez constitutional reform will remove the Central Bank autonomy, fantastic!! Now he'll print money whenever he feels like it!

Did you know that in concern of the extreme circumstances of the upper 9th ward of New Orleans, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez offered aid to the victims of Hurricane Katrina?

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_chavez#Presidency_.281999.E2.80.93present.29[/quote]

jeffbr

Thanks, CaterinaA. Always a voice of reason and balance in these Chavez threads. Nice to hear reality from someone who's lived it.

CaterinaA

Originally Posted by Orestes
...it's not difficult to understand that Chavez is initiating some pretty fundamental reforms that are turning his rule into an autocratic regime... but he's betraying the democratic structure that legitimates his power so that he can satisfy his own ego and thirst for power...

brokendave wrote:

I am officially classifying your final statement as BULLSHIT until you can provide factual analysis and reporting of these accusations.

Why is this bullshit? OK I'll give you some proof, can I provide links? Only if you read Spanish. Complete coverage of Venezuela's affairs takes place in Spanish.

OK, if you work for the goverment YOU HAVE TO attend all government acts is not very democratic.

He demanded Congress to sign an act that gives him power to rule by decree for 18 month, of course he's got it, so nowadays Congress members' paycash is like unemployment insurance. He's rewriting by himself the Constitution, his brother (Minister of Education, because well he's the brother of the President, he's got zero credential to hold that position) and his father (governor of his birthsate Barinas, again just because!) maybe chipping in, other than that nobody knows a thing about it.

Whatelse, ohh there's no power division anymore. Justice is just an extension of Chavez and well the Congress I've already told you.

He's about to pass an act which eliminated Universities autonomy, meaning central government will decide what can be taught and what not. This is one of the main reasons for students' more recent protests and rallies. Universities are supposed to be places for ample debates and freedom of thought and speech...

Ohhh, workers in factories (public or private) have to attend mandatory lectures on Marxism and Socialism. The same goes for the military (which by the Constitution cannot be associated with any particular ideological framework) and when the march they have to yell "Motherland, Socialism or Death"

What else? About RCTV. There's a tiny issue with the shutting down of the network. Yes, the network clearly had an opposition editorial line. Yes the network did not broadcast Chavez return to power in 2002, after the failed Coup. But guess what, not one of the private networks broadcasted. But the only one to be punished is RCTV?? Why? Because it refused to genuflex to the Government. Venevision and Televen (also oppositors) got scared and changed their editorial line, actually BIG BUCKS were involved. And yet there is another small issue, which is legal: Venezuela's Constitution (written by Chavez government) states that for a Government to take down a broadcasting license has to inform the media outlet using such signal with two years of advance: they should have informed RCTV in 2005 that they were not getting their contract renewed. But you wanna know how they found out? Simple: during Chavez Christmas national address (December 26th, 2006) he said the following: "to RCTV I tell you, start shutting down your equipment 'cause after you'll be gone". Ohh, and Venezuela's Supreme Justice Court authorize the confiscation of all of RCTV equipment, so the new public channel (TVES) has cameras and such to broadcast with.

Just so you know, 70% of Venezuelans were against the shutting down of RCTV, it is Venezuelans most beloved channel...

Furthermore, Chavez now decided that Cable TV has to broadcast all of his speeches to the Nation, which happen whenever he feels like it. Why? Very simple, 'cause now RCTV is on the air again via cable.

freedomboy

CaterinaA wrote:

...it is as unbiased as Powell's statements at the UN General Assembly...

These statements were not meant to be biased. There are a lot of people who buy the rhetoric that comes from Washington about President Hugo Chavez, and I wanted to bring up some points that they may not have otherwise heard.

CaterinaA wrote:

...And yes, if you don't go you can pretty much kiss your job go[o]dbye (this happened to a friend of mine)

First of all, this appears to be hearsay, as I can't find anything on the topic. If this is true, I would say that the President's could be doing it a better way... although, he is already doing it better than the US or any other westernized nation.

CaterinaA wrote:

Did you know that during the beginning of these events in April 2002, 13 people from the opposition that were peacefully marching towards the Palacio de Miraflores (Venezuela's White House) were killed by Chavez' hitmen...

This is a direct misrepresentation of what really happened there. The group was in the hundreds, not 13. Every independent study I've read of the situation indicate that those people marched into a Pro-Chavez rally, where violence ensued. They all can only be so lucky to see 13 people shot when everyone in Venezuela carries guns.

Your credibility is lacking after that last statement.

CaterinaA wrote:

...The nerve of the middle class!!...

The reason I pointed out that referendum was to show that he WON!

CaterinaA wrote:

So all these weapons he's been buying lately are a clear effort in this direction...

What direction would that be? Imperialism? No. Defense against Washington? Maybe. We can't read his mind.

CaterinaA wrote:

...you can't even find milk these days?...

You can complain all you want, but government can't please everyone. Ask yourself this?

If given the following options, would you vote for President Hugo Chavez or one of the past 4 US presidents (Bush Jr., Clinton, Bush Sr., Reagan?

CaterinaA wrote:

...electricity never got to be privatized??...

My mistake then, I must have misread an article. The rest was correct though, right? As for the quality of service that is in question, it is up to his constituents to let him know that it is a major issue! They must stand up and demand better phone service!

freedomboy

jeffbr wrote:

Thanks, CaterinaA. Always a voice of reason and balance in these Chavez threads. Nice to hear reality from someone who's lived it.

JEFF! I think Tony Snow is on CNN! Go swallow more of his bullshit!

jeffbr

brokendave wrote:

These statements were not meant to be biased. There are a lot of people who buy the rhetoric that comes from Washington about President Hugo Chavez, and I wanted to bring up some points that they may not have otherwise heard.

You seem willing to buy the socialist claptrap and swallow it hook, line & sinker. Thanks for sharing.

brokendave wrote:

First of all, this appears to be hearsay, as I can't find anything on the topic. If this is true, I would say that the President's could be doing it a better way... although, he is already doing it better than the US or any other westernized nation.

What is "it"? Getting people to vote? Why is your focus on numbers / percentage of voters? How meaningful are the numbers if coersion is involved?

brokendave wrote:

You can complain all you want, but government can't please everyone. Ask yourself this?

If given the following options, would you vote for President Hugo Chavez or one of the past 4 US presidents (Bush Jr., Clinton, Bush Sr., Reagan?

Since I'm philisophically the opposite of a socialist, I don't love any of the above choices, but would choose any of the 4 US presidents over Chavez without hesitation.

freedomboy

CaterinaA wrote:

OK I'll give you some proof, can I provide links? Only if you read Spanish. Complete coverage of Venezuela's affairs takes place in Spanish.

I can read spanish, and if it is too complicated, there is babble fish...

CaterinaA wrote:

He demanded Congress to sign an act that gives him power to rule by decree for 18 month...

A lot of what you've said here, I've not read about. I will have to do an independent study of this. As far as his 18 month reign, he is building a socialist movement may work well this time... I don't think we can tell his motives until his is finished... but until that time, I understand that you as concerned citizens must speak out against this... Just please be careful not to give Washington any ammunition for invading Venezuela or supporting another coup... please realize that is the worst thing that could happen to Venezuela.

CaterinaA wrote:

Just so you know, 70% of Venezuelans were against the shutting down of RCTV, it is Venezuelans most beloved channel...

No. Where did you get this statistic? RCTV? ROFL!

CaterinaA wrote:

...Chavez now decided that Cable TV has to broadcast all of his speeches...

Sounds like a functional idea to me. It should be the same way in the US.

fuck

so you're all using wikipedia as your sources?

"i love wikipedia because ANYONE in the world can edit it, so you know you're getting the best possible information." - Michael Scott

jeffbr

_FiveAgainstOne_ wrote:

so you're all using wikipedia as your sources?

"i love wikipedia because ANYONE in the world can edit it, so you know you're getting the best possible information." - Michael Scott

Who's "all"?

CaterinaA is certainly not relying on Wiki. She has, in previous threads, provided spanish language links.

Pacomc79

The press is a whole lot more effective in giving out honest and truthful information when it is not at the point of a gun.

I could amend that and say simply... People are a whole lot more effictive in giving out honest and truthful information when it is not at the point of a gun.

freedomboy

jeffbr wrote:

What is "it"?

1. Coercion is NOT involved in his elections.

2. "It" - Running the country for the benefit of the people. His motives are not of self gain, or of the gain of the wealthy, unlike most westernized countries.

CaterinaA

brokendave wrote:

These statements were not meant to be biased. There are a lot of people who buy the rhetoric that comes from Washington about President Hugo Chavez, and I wanted to bring up some points that they may not have otherwise heard.

OK, well I'm posting my rethoric as a Latin American and as a Venezuelan at heart and as somebody devoted in her work to political current affairs.

brokendave wrote:

First of all, this appears to be hearsay, as I can't find anything on the topic. If this is true, I would say that the President's could be doing it a better way... although, he is already doing it better than the US or any other westernized nation.

Sorry for the missing o in goodbye (when I read it something did seem right ). Well, this is hearsay for you, but 5 of my dad's friend who signed the Referendum petition got the retirement pensions denied and 2 others were denied their passports.

About doing it better than other nations. Nope, sorry you're wrong. Just in Latin America, Chile's records in every single social, political and economic indicator are sooo much better than Chavez records, and Chile's governments -since democracy returned in 1990- are doing it while respecting institutions and the citizens of the country.

brokendave wrote:

This is a direct misrepresentation of what really happened there. The group was in the hundreds, not 13. Every independent study I've read of the situation indicate that those people marched into a Pro-Chavez rally, where violence ensued. They all can only be so lucky to see 13 people shot when everyone in Venezuela carries guns.

Your credibility is lacking after that last statement.

OK here's the thing, during those days several marches took place. The one I'm referring to is the one of April 11th, 2002, when thousands of people from the opposition gathered spontaneously and marched towards the center of Caracas and from a bridge some guys belonging to the Circulos Bolivarianos opened fire. This particular rallie could only be seen via Globovision and Colombian TV networks 'cause the government shut down all the other TV and media outlets. Hey, a friend of mine that was in that rallie had to carry in his arms one of the 13 bodies. A stranged that got shot and fell down to the floor.

And yes it is a shame that everybody in Venezuela is armed. It is something that always scared me while I lived there.

brokendave wrote:

The reason I pointed out that referendum was to show that he WON!

OK, I get your point now.

brokendave wrote:

What direction would that be? Imperialism? No. Defense against Washington? Maybe. We can't read his mind.

No we can't. I just think that given the state of Venezuela's infrastructure and medium and small firms state of the arts it would be wiser to spend such resources in those areas. Anyways, his foreing policy for Latin America is disastrous, MERCOSUR was functioning just fine until he entered the organisation.

brokendave wrote:

You can complain all you want, but government can't please everyone. Ask yourself this?

OK, this is a weak defense for the severe shorcoming of BASIC GOODS, in the supermarkets created for the poor to buy such goods at affordable prices.The major concern about this thing is that agriculture and small and medium firms are becoming a memory of the past in Venezuela.

brokendave wrote:

If given the following options, would you vote for President Hugo Chavez or one of the past 4 US presidents (Bush Jr., Clinton, Bush Sr., Reagan?)

OK, I would never in my life vote for Chavez, I remember too well his two attempts to take down Carlos Andres Perez and I remember too well those poor souls from that were executed during the second attack. Nope, I would never vote for somebody with such disregard for Democracy.

About US candidates, well I'm not allowed to vote in your country, but I'd say Clinton in a heatbeat. I'm allowed to vote in Chile and in Italy where I would give my vote to Romano Prodi.

brokendave wrote:

My mistake then, I must have misread an article. The rest was correct though, right? As for the quality of service that is in question, it is up to his constituents to let him know that it is a major issue! They must stand up and demand better phone service!

The rest was not totally correct, 'cause as I said before, there's always been public banking in Venezuela.

Yes, of course it is the duty of the constituency to let Chavez know about the quality of the service, but why if CANTV was working fine must it be returned to the State. The service provided was of great quality and affordable for everybody. I'm sorry but I don't see the benefit in returning an enterprise to State's control just for the sake of doing so.