Good god, you get yourself hung up on a word. I don't understand that. I won't call you insane, as you have me, because I know better.
What I can say is that you are among a large population of folks that hate for the sake of hating, and it really gets tiresome.
I don't hate Dubya, but I bet you think I do.
Look at it this way: the "communism" of the USSR, back in the day, sought to distribute currency in a different way. A new way. It was neither Communist, or Socialist or Capitalist in the way that you choose to believe those words to mean. It was just different. There a billion different ways to distribute currency.
Now you tell me. Who decides that?
So you want to discuss Marxism-Leninism?
Um, alright. Command economies distribute currency by requiring certain amounts of goods to be made in response to the perceived demand. Problem is: the guy who runs the system can never know exactly how much to produce. What results is an inefficient response to the needs of the people. Also, shoddy workmanship, rationing lines, and depression result from a command economy, necessarily.
This system of distribution can never efficiently distribute goods as well as the free market system. As soon as a demand is present, a supply (business) opens to fill that demand because the supply (business) wants to profit - he has a desire to become wealthy. It's a selfish desire.
Socialism ignores selfish desires in favor of group desires. People are not inclined to think of others when they happen to be starving though, so that system will never work. There's no "incentive."
Yes, the USSR came up with a different system but it is a system that will only fail every time it is tried.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
i would trust caterina over wikipedia when it comes to venezuela ... she's a smart one
having said that - why must we look towards venezuela for guidance and since when have they become the beacon of socialism?? ...
there are no perfect situations in this world simply because for any one system to be truly effective - you need complete buy in from everyone ... nowhere has that ...
why not look towards scandinavia where they practice a form of socialism that puts them near or at the top of the list of best standard of living studies?
venezuela is caught between the proverbial rock and hard place ... a moderate leader may not work in a continent that has a history of cia/US involvement ... i dunno ... but the americans have fucked that continent over like every other - it's hard to come in and not be worried you aren't being screwed over by some interest group ...
Um, alright. Command economies distribute currency by requiring certain amounts of goods to be made in response to the perceived demand. Problem is: the guy who runs the system can never know exactly how much to produce. What results is an inefficient response to the needs of the people. Also, shoddy workmanship, rationing lines, and depression result from a command economy, necessarily.
This system of distribution can never efficiently distribute goods as well as the free market system. As soon as a demand is present, a supply (business) opens to fill that demand because the supply (business) wants to profit - he has a desire to become wealthy. It's a selfish desire.
Socialism ignores selfish desires in favor of group desires. People are not inclined to think of others when they happen to be starving though, so that system will never work. There's no "incentive."
Yes, the USSR came up with a different system but it is a system that will only fail every time it is tried.
The banking system as a whole, all around the world, including here in the USA, requires failure in order to succeed.
i would trust caterina over wikipedia when it comes to venezuela ... she's a smart one
She is. I know it looks that I were putting her down, but we were able to share some info one day on the events of 2002, and I think we both learned some things.
brokendave from chicago? WTF?? good thing CaterinaA is around. she owned your ass.
Chavez for dictator! OLAAAA OYLAAA OLLLAAAA OLLLLLA!!!!
There wasn't an argument or contest for her to have owned me in. We had a discussion, and she has differing opinions. I think we agree more than we disagree... which many of you would find true between us if you'd stop judging my defense of President Chavez, and simply start a dialog between us...
There wasn't an argument or contest for her to have owned me in. We had a discussion, and she has differing opinions. I think we agree more than we disagree... which many of you would find true between us if you'd stop judging my defense of President Chavez, and simply start a dialog between us...
I see no good defense for chavez. he is nothing more then a dictator intent on taking away the freedoms of the people in his country
Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has been democratically elected, each election gaining a higher percentage of the vote without using coercion, intimidation, or force?
Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has been democratically elected, each election gaining a higher percentage of the vote without using coercion, intimidation, or force?
Saddam told us the same thing.
Yes?
Didn't Jimmy Carter, among many others from abroad, preside over the Venezuelan elections and report there wasn't any nonsense going on?
All I've been reading is some bickering between three people about how many venezuelan's they know and their definition of a dictatorship.
CaterinaA had some pretty meaningful things to say but it seems like it just went over your heads.
Brokendave, have you ever spent $20+ to buy a Che Guevara shirt? Just asking...
Reason of Importance: CaterinaA still has some things to say here I think.
Apparently it is you who has the happening of this tread flying over their head. Her and I have come to some understandings and common ground I think. I understand that Chavez isn't doing everything the right way. But you should understand that ultimately, what he is trying to accomplish, I support... and I think he is a better leader than many. Again, I think every Venezuelan has the right to stand up and demand and complain at this point though, as you should be doing.
If you are going to toss insults... stfu. Che has become an icon in the t-shirts made by random mega globalized corporations arena. Are you going to start telling me what a murderous fuck Che Guevara is now? Che believed in a cause and fought to his death for it. He wasn't perfect, but NOBODY IS! Fuck off, in advance for saying otherwise.
BECAUSE SOMEONE HAS MADE MISTAKES, DOESN'T MEAN THEY DESERVE TO BE WRITTEN OFF COMPLETELY! THERE IS GOOD IN WHAT CHAVEZ HAS DONE, AS WELL AS WHAT CHE DID, AND WHAT CASTRO HAS DONE.
p.s. if I get banned for saying "fuck", or "fuck off" or "shut the fuck up"... there is a giant middle finger waiting for the admin that does it. I am not insulting anyone here.
Are you going to start telling me what a murderous fuck Che Guevara is now? Che believed in a cause and fought to his death for it. He wasn't perfect, but NOBODY IS! Fuck off, in advance for saying otherwise.
Che Guevara was a murderous fuck. He probably smelled bad, too.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
...Caterina is towing the opposition line, and she and I have gone over it before.
Amen brother! Although, I still believe you can learn something from anyone... So, I will not write Caterina off just yet. I am weary that anything she says will be manipulated when she decides to play on ignorance though...
And we can go away together somewhere. And have sex.
And I can get caught coming to visit you in your house on that "to catch a predator" program.
then I will be famous.
I really don't get the gay angle. Why did you, and that dude who got banned yesterday, decide to start tagging jlew as gay? I don't get it at all. And even if he were gay, why is that something that would be belittled or made a joke of?
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
I really don't get the gay angle. Why did you, and that dude who got banned yesterday, decide to start tagging jlew as gay? I don't get it at all. And even if he were gay, why is that something that would be belittled or made a joke of?
I think he was playing on their homophobia, not hinting that jeffbr is a homosexual... or were you joking?
I really don't get the gay angle. Why did you, and that dude who got banned yesterday, decide to start tagging jlew as gay? I don't get it at all. And even if he were gay, why is that something that would be belittled or made a joke of?
Gay is a tag?
For one thing, I don't know Jlew's gender.
For another, I do know a freeper (whether he /she is conscious of what he/she is posting is another matter) when I see one.
Thirdly, I despise ignorance (read: freepers), and do my best to inform. When good intentions go unheeded, then I know it's time for fun.
Her and I have come to some understandings and common ground I think. I understand that Chavez isn't doing everything the right way. But you should understand that ultimately, what he is trying to accomplish, I support... and I think he is a better leader than many.
Ok, it's good to know that you are sharing a common ground. Now, if you reread what I had posted before you too will see that I also believe that his increase in public expenditure is a good thing.
Being a better leader than many is not THAT good of a praise. After all, we always have trusty Kim Jong-Il to make us all look good.
At this point in the conversation all I care about is knowing what, according to you, is Chavez's "ultimate project". What is that which you support?
If you are going to toss insults... stfu. [...] Che believed in a cause and fought to his death for it. He wasn't perfect, but NOBODY IS! Fuck off, in advance for saying otherwise.
The whole reference was hinting towards the fact that the rationality of your arguments was thrown off by a sort of ideological support. My point was that even the most integral revolutionary--in this case Che--will be ulitmately betrayed by the hype that surrounds them.
But I seem to have touched a nerve there.
Oh and "nobody's perfect"?! Great defense there, if only Saddam had met you before he walked the plank...
Did you know that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has been democratically elected, each election gaining a higher percentage of the vote without using coercion, intimidation, or force?
Saddam told us the same thing.
Haven't you heard that twice in almost the last eight years down there too? I know we witnessed it from up here. Yeah, baby!!!!
1. ...Now, if you reread what I had posted before...
2. ..Being a better leader than many is not THAT good of a praise...
3. ...What is that which you support?
4. ...But I seem to have touched a nerve there.
1. I know what you've posted before, I don't have to look back. I know exactly where you stand, and honestly I am doing nothing on this thread but defending the fact that I believe President Chavez deserves better than being compared to dictators and genocidal maniacs. I don't play games when discussing these issues, they are important to me, and they should be important to everyone.
2. Better leader than MOST. I don't care how good of a praise it is... that isn't the reason for this thread anyway.
3. I support systems free from corporate control, I support the idea of sharing basics technologies (running water, electricity generation, health care, housing, telephone, internet) and I do not think they should be left in the hands of capitalism. I support systems in which the majority of people rule, and not the most powerful. I support systems in which diplomacy and anti-globalization agendas are driven... I could go on. Ultimately, I support a system in which there is a true democracy and the workers run business... a place where there is no hierarchy... Chavez is pushing for that kind of agenda, it is unfortunate that he believes he must take certain things away to accomplish this.
4. Yeah, because it pisses me off that people who died fighting for the poor get their faced slapped onto a $20 GAP t-shirt! He is rolling in his fucking grave right now!
Oh, and I also support the free sharing of ideas. I think you can make money off of an idea, but you can't own that idea... it should be shared. Technology would have progressed 10 fold in the U.S. had this been true.
1. I know what you've posted before, I don't have to look back. I know exactly where you stand, and honestly I am doing nothing on this thread but defending the fact that I believe President Chavez deserves better than being compared to dictators and genocidal maniacs. I don't play games when discussing these issues, they are important to me, and they should be important to everyone.
2. Better leader than MOST. I don't care how good of a praise it is... that isn't the reason for this thread anyway.
3. I support systems free from corporate control, I support the idea of sharing basics technologies (running water, electricity generation, health care, housing, telephone, internet) and I do not think they should be left in the hands of capitalism. I support systems in which the majority of people rule, and not the most powerful. I support systems in which diplomacy and anti-globalization agendas are driven... I could go on. Ultimately, I support a system in which there is a true democracy and the workers run business... a place where there is no hierarchy... Chavez is pushing for that kind of agenda, it is unfortunate that he believes he must take certain things away to accomplish this.
4. Yeah, because it pisses me off that people who died fighting for the poor get their faced slapped onto a $20 GAP t-shirt! He is rolling in his fucking grave right now!
Oh, and I also support the free sharing of ideas. I think you can make money off of an idea, but you can't own that idea... it should be shared. Technology would have progressed 10 fold in the U.S. had this been true.
To sum it all up... Viva la Zapatistas!
i don't like chavez... the dude sucks....
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
1. I know what you've posted before, I don't have to look back. I know exactly where you stand, and honestly I am doing nothing on this thread but defending the fact that I believe President Chavez deserves better than being compared to dictators and genocidal maniacs. I don't play games when discussing these issues, they are important to me, and they should be important to everyone.
2. Better leader than MOST. I don't care how good of a praise it is... that isn't the reason for this thread anyway.
3. I support systems free from corporate control, I support the idea of sharing basics technologies (running water, electricity generation, health care, housing, telephone, internet) and I do not think they should be left in the hands of capitalism. I support systems in which the majority of people rule, and not the most powerful. I support systems in which diplomacy and anti-globalization agendas are driven... I could go on. Ultimately, I support a system in which there is a true democracy and the workers run business... a place where there is no hierarchy... Chavez is pushing for that kind of agenda, it is unfortunate that he believes he must take certain things away to accomplish this.
4. Yeah, because it pisses me off that people who died fighting for the poor get their faced slapped onto a $20 GAP t-shirt! He is rolling in his fucking grave right now!
Oh, and I also support the free sharing of ideas. I think you can make money off of an idea, but you can't own that idea... it should be shared. Technology would have progressed 10 fold in the U.S. had this been true.
To sum it all up... Viva la Zapatistas!
A friend and coworker of mine lived in Venezuela and had one hell of a time there. She spits when she says the name Chavez.
Your points that you make in your post all point to socialism, and I don't say that with any condemnation. Some of your points speak to my soul. But when carried too far, they speak of control.
President Hugo Chavez has a trade pact (ALBA) Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas, that includes Bolivia, Brazil, and Cuba is widely seen as an alternatives to the U.S. supported Free Trade Zone of the Americas. Chavez upon swearing in offered NIcaragua low interest loans, discounted oil, and assistance with health care, housing and education.
The new president of Ecuador, Rafael Correa, likwise signed an agreement with Chavez, a bilateral energy deal furthers the growing intergration of the region. There's now a widespread rejection of US backed free trade agreements, growing interest in the Common Market of the South, and a controversial pipeline proposal to link Venezuela, Brazil and ultimately Argentina, Bolivia, Paraguay, and Uruguay. This creates a integrated Latin Amercia no long dependent on the United States, and focuses on solving the problems of the poor. This is straight out of Nation Magazine.
"The Poet is a madman lost in adventure."
-Paul Verlaine-
"With me poetry has not been a purpose, but a passion."
-Edgar Poe-
President Hugo Chavez has a trade pact (ALBA) Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas, that includes Bolivia, Brazil, and Cuba is widely seen as an alternatives to the U.S. supported Free Trade Zone of the Americas. Chavez upon swearing in offered NIcaragua low interest loans, discounted oil, and assistance with health care, housing and education.
The new president of Ecuador, Rafael Correa, likwise signed an agreement with Chavez, a bilateral energy deal furthers the growing intergration of the region. There's now a widespread rejection of US backed free trade agreements, growing interest in the Common Market of the South, and a controversial pipeline proposal to link Venezuela, Brazil and ultimately Argentina, Bolivia, Paraguay, and Uruguay. This creates a integrated Latin Amercia no long dependent on the United States, and focuses on solving the problems of the poor. This is straight out of Nation Magazine.
So we can stop sending them aid now?? Hooray!!
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
Comments
So you want to discuss Marxism-Leninism?
Um, alright. Command economies distribute currency by requiring certain amounts of goods to be made in response to the perceived demand. Problem is: the guy who runs the system can never know exactly how much to produce. What results is an inefficient response to the needs of the people. Also, shoddy workmanship, rationing lines, and depression result from a command economy, necessarily.
This system of distribution can never efficiently distribute goods as well as the free market system. As soon as a demand is present, a supply (business) opens to fill that demand because the supply (business) wants to profit - he has a desire to become wealthy. It's a selfish desire.
Socialism ignores selfish desires in favor of group desires. People are not inclined to think of others when they happen to be starving though, so that system will never work. There's no "incentive."
Yes, the USSR came up with a different system but it is a system that will only fail every time it is tried.
-Enoch Powell
having said that - why must we look towards venezuela for guidance and since when have they become the beacon of socialism?? ...
there are no perfect situations in this world simply because for any one system to be truly effective - you need complete buy in from everyone ... nowhere has that ...
why not look towards scandinavia where they practice a form of socialism that puts them near or at the top of the list of best standard of living studies?
venezuela is caught between the proverbial rock and hard place ... a moderate leader may not work in a continent that has a history of cia/US involvement ... i dunno ... but the americans have fucked that continent over like every other - it's hard to come in and not be worried you aren't being screwed over by some interest group ...
The banking system as a whole, all around the world, including here in the USA, requires failure in order to succeed.
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She is. I know it looks that I were putting her down, but we were able to share some info one day on the events of 2002, and I think we both learned some things.
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There wasn't an argument or contest for her to have owned me in. We had a discussion, and she has differing opinions. I think we agree more than we disagree... which many of you would find true between us if you'd stop judging my defense of President Chavez, and simply start a dialog between us...
I see no good defense for chavez. he is nothing more then a dictator intent on taking away the freedoms of the people in his country
And you are?
I mean.
Who are you?
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Saddam told us the same thing.
Yes?
Didn't Jimmy Carter, among many others from abroad, preside over the Venezuelan elections and report there wasn't any nonsense going on?
I don't think Saddam gave that privilege.
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here we go again. I mean, what the fuck is wrong with you
Reason of Importance: CaterinaA still has some things to say here I think.
Apparently it is you who has the happening of this tread flying over their head. Her and I have come to some understandings and common ground I think. I understand that Chavez isn't doing everything the right way. But you should understand that ultimately, what he is trying to accomplish, I support... and I think he is a better leader than many. Again, I think every Venezuelan has the right to stand up and demand and complain at this point though, as you should be doing.
If you are going to toss insults... stfu. Che has become an icon in the t-shirts made by random mega globalized corporations arena. Are you going to start telling me what a murderous fuck Che Guevara is now? Che believed in a cause and fought to his death for it. He wasn't perfect, but NOBODY IS! Fuck off, in advance for saying otherwise.
BECAUSE SOMEONE HAS MADE MISTAKES, DOESN'T MEAN THEY DESERVE TO BE WRITTEN OFF COMPLETELY! THERE IS GOOD IN WHAT CHAVEZ HAS DONE, AS WELL AS WHAT CHE DID, AND WHAT CASTRO HAS DONE.
p.s. if I get banned for saying "fuck", or "fuck off" or "shut the fuck up"... there is a giant middle finger waiting for the admin that does it. I am not insulting anyone here.
Maybe I love you.
And we can go away together somewhere. And have sex.
And I can get caught coming to visit you in your house on that "to catch a predator" program.
then I will be famous.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Che Guevara was a murderous fuck. He probably smelled bad, too.
Amen brother! Although, I still believe you can learn something from anyone... So, I will not write Caterina off just yet. I am weary that anything she says will be manipulated when she decides to play on ignorance though...
Caterina? Want to join in on this one?
I really don't get the gay angle. Why did you, and that dude who got banned yesterday, decide to start tagging jlew as gay? I don't get it at all. And even if he were gay, why is that something that would be belittled or made a joke of?
I just threw up in my mouth. and im sure you have been on the show already
I think he was playing on their homophobia, not hinting that jeffbr is a homosexual... or were you joking?
For one thing, I don't know Jlew's gender.
For another, I do know a freeper (whether he /she is conscious of what he/she is posting is another matter) when I see one.
Thirdly, I despise ignorance (read: freepers), and do my best to inform. When good intentions go unheeded, then I know it's time for fun.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
-Enoch Powell
its probably extremely hard to figure out my the myspace page that I am a 27 year old male.
its quite confusing with all your pedophile and gay jokes. odd really
Ok, it's good to know that you are sharing a common ground. Now, if you reread what I had posted before you too will see that I also believe that his increase in public expenditure is a good thing.
Being a better leader than many is not THAT good of a praise. After all, we always have trusty Kim Jong-Il to make us all look good.
At this point in the conversation all I care about is knowing what, according to you, is Chavez's "ultimate project". What is that which you support?
The whole reference was hinting towards the fact that the rationality of your arguments was thrown off by a sort of ideological support. My point was that even the most integral revolutionary--in this case Che--will be ulitmately betrayed by the hype that surrounds them.
But I seem to have touched a nerve there.
Oh and "nobody's perfect"?! Great defense there, if only Saddam had met you before he walked the plank...
Haven't you heard that twice in almost the last eight years down there too?
1. I know what you've posted before, I don't have to look back. I know exactly where you stand, and honestly I am doing nothing on this thread but defending the fact that I believe President Chavez deserves better than being compared to dictators and genocidal maniacs. I don't play games when discussing these issues, they are important to me, and they should be important to everyone.
2. Better leader than MOST. I don't care how good of a praise it is... that isn't the reason for this thread anyway.
3. I support systems free from corporate control, I support the idea of sharing basics technologies (running water, electricity generation, health care, housing, telephone, internet) and I do not think they should be left in the hands of capitalism. I support systems in which the majority of people rule, and not the most powerful. I support systems in which diplomacy and anti-globalization agendas are driven... I could go on. Ultimately, I support a system in which there is a true democracy and the workers run business... a place where there is no hierarchy... Chavez is pushing for that kind of agenda, it is unfortunate that he believes he must take certain things away to accomplish this.
4. Yeah, because it pisses me off that people who died fighting for the poor get their faced slapped onto a $20 GAP t-shirt! He is rolling in his fucking grave right now!
Oh, and I also support the free sharing of ideas. I think you can make money off of an idea, but you can't own that idea... it should be shared. Technology would have progressed 10 fold in the U.S. had this been true.
To sum it all up... Viva la Zapatistas!
A friend and coworker of mine lived in Venezuela and had one hell of a time there. She spits when she says the name Chavez.
Your points that you make in your post all point to socialism, and I don't say that with any condemnation. Some of your points speak to my soul. But when carried too far, they speak of control.
I agree about the t-shirt 100% though.
The new president of Ecuador, Rafael Correa, likwise signed an agreement with Chavez, a bilateral energy deal furthers the growing intergration of the region. There's now a widespread rejection of US backed free trade agreements, growing interest in the Common Market of the South, and a controversial pipeline proposal to link Venezuela, Brazil and ultimately Argentina, Bolivia, Paraguay, and Uruguay. This creates a integrated Latin Amercia no long dependent on the United States, and focuses on solving the problems of the poor. This is straight out of Nation Magazine.
-Paul Verlaine-
"With me poetry has not been a purpose, but a passion."
-Edgar Poe-
So we can stop sending them aid now?? Hooray!!
-Enoch Powell
Then you do not support Chavez's government.
There's no such thing in business as 'no hierarchy'. I don't know where brokendave is coming from there.
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Some people make take your response in the negative, but it is a "hooray!"
You can thank Chavez later.
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