It's great to appreciate someone's beauty! I do this all the time, male or female. As long as you see them as human beings with feelings, and attempt to connect with their thoughts, feelings and intuitions as well.
Who the hell has time every day to stop and think hard and connect with the thoughts, feelings, and intuitions of every person they lay eyes on? That sounds like something Stuart Smalley would say.
If you find them to be hot, obviously that's just reality. It depends on what you do with those feelings. Do you objectify them and purely relate to their physical shell? Or do you think about them as a person. You may not know them individually, but most people have a degree of empathy, and can relate to the commonalities between others....We can empathize with how they might feel in different situations. Or, again, we can see them purely as a sexual fantasy which revolves around our sexual desires..ie: in fantasy, where the person is there to do our bidding.
This is so absurd. So sexual fantasy is evil now? We can't think someone is attractive and then move on with our day and never give them another thought, except maybe a few minutes of inspiration for a wank session? We have to mentally romance them and love them and dwell deeply on what wonderful little snowflakes they are? You can't be serious.
Until i met the person i wanted to spend my life with, I never really used to understand how men could get so turned on by that and not actually 'love' the person, because generally for girls there has to be some sort of connection to the person for them to want to lust after them in that way. I've come to understand that men don't think about or lust about the particular girl after the movie is over.
You're wrong... I am madly in love with Keri Sable!
This is so absurd. So sexual fantasy is evil now? We can't think someone is attractive and then move on with our day and never give them another thought, except maybe a few minutes of inspiration for a wank session? We have to mentally romance them and love them and dwell deeply on what wonderful little snowflakes they are? You can't be serious.
I know when ever I flip through Maxim I always wonder what the women's dreams and aspirations are. I sit and wonder what they where feeling when the posed half dressed for the photo shoot.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Legalize everything that doesn't hurt anyone. The good lawd imbued us all, everyone, with intellect and free will. The freedom to choose for oneself. Be it whim or survival. So be a prostitute or just visit one. We have to begin accepting responsibility for our own actions -including fighting back against the morals police that would bully everyone to impose their own narrow behavioral scope on society "for it's own good". If you want to play the ponies, or 'craps', or blow a joint, or pay to shoot a load into a stranger, go for it, and go for it with gusto. I know prostitutes, strippers & porn actresses in several countries and they're some of the coolest, happiest people around. The party doesn't end. Who the hell is anybody to tell me that their law is more important than my own?
excellent point.
one's 'morality' may differ greatly from one person to the next, and as long as your actions are consentual and/or do not do harm to others.....there is no reason someone else's morality should be forced upon you.
and seriously, women can be just as *base* and emotionally disconnected from sexual experience as men. objectify, have purely sexual/physical intercourse sans emotion, etc. men may more likey typify such behaviors, but it certainly is not theirs alone. and agsin, there is nothing *wrong* with such behaviors if that is wht you desire and is mutually agreed upon. sure, such activities involved with someone you have an emotional attachment is even better.....but a shag with no strings is all cool too. depends what you're looking for.
I know when ever I flip through Maxim I always wonder what the women's dreams and aspirations are. I sit and wonder what they where feeling when the posed half dressed for the photo shoot.
No kidding. I'm not saying there aren't plenty of guys who treat women like objects or a means to an end. But what she's talking about is human behavior that BOTH genders practice and it's not like it's inherently evil or anything. I don't think that objectification and love and empathy for one's humanity are necessarily mutually exclusive all the time. It's not like it I have a fantasy about a woman I find attractive I'm incapable of also caring about her. Shit, I have a lot of female friends that I would do anything for and that I respect and admire for their ambition... but I've still been known (rather, very carefully not known, hehe) to have the occasional daydream about them. My ex was the most intelligent and ambitious woman I ever knew and I loved that, but that doesn't mean that sometimes I didn't just eye her up and down sometimes and think "I've got to have that now!"
and seriously, women can be just as *base* and emotionally disconnected from sexual experience as men. objectify, have purely sexual/physical intercourse sans emotion, etc. men may more likey typify such behaviors, but it certainly is not theirs alone. and agsin, there is nothing *wrong* with such behaviors if that is wht you desire and is mutually agreed upon. sure, such activities involved with someone you have an emotional attachment is even better.....but a shag with no strings is all cool too. depends what you're looking for.
has anyone read Linda Lovelace's book? Where she recounts the control and abuse, inluding threat by weapons she endured during the era she made movies such as "Deep throat"?
I have.
Has anyone read Tracy Lord's book, which details the sexual assault she experienced as a child, and the other painful issues that brought her to the porn industry as an underaged girl? Of her then drug abuse as an adult porn star, and relationships with abusive men? All that is a little less "sexy" to acknowledge....
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
No kidding. I'm not saying there aren't plenty of guys who treat women like objects or a means to an end. But what she's talking about is human behavior that BOTH genders practice and it's not like it's inherently evil or anything. I don't think that objectification and love and empathy for one's humanity are necessarily mutually exclusive all the time. It's not like it I have a fantasy about a woman I find attractive I'm incapable of also caring about her. Shit, I have a lot of female friends that I would do anything for and that I respect and admire for their ambition... but I've still been known (rather, very carefully not known, hehe) to have the occasional daydream about them. My ex was the most intelligent and ambitious woman I ever knew and I loved that, but that doesn't mean that sometimes I didn't just eye her up and down sometimes and think "I've got to have that now!"
No one said objectification is inherently evil. However, objectification remains objectification.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
No kidding. I'm not saying there aren't plenty of guys who treat women like objects or a means to an end. But what she's talking about is human behavior that BOTH genders practice and it's not like it's inherently evil or anything. I don't think that objectification and love and empathy for one's humanity are necessarily mutually exclusive all the time. It's not like it I have a fantasy about a woman I find attractive I'm incapable of also caring about her. Shit, I have a lot of female friends that I would do anything for and that I respect and admire for their ambition... but I've still been known (rather, very carefully not known, hehe) to have the occasional daydream about them. My ex was the most intelligent and ambitious woman I ever knew and I loved that, but that doesn't mean that sometimes I didn't just eye her up and down sometimes and think "I've got to have that now!"
I completely agree with you. I don't see why admiring someone's beauty and being drawn to them sexually has to be mutual exclusive from respecting them. I can see a beautiful woman walking down the street and momentarily dream about being intimate with her, but that doesn't mean that I don't respect her as a person. As you said, I'm sure there are men and women out there that objectify people of the opposite, and same, sex but that doesn't mean that we all do or that we should be ashamed because we are drawn to someone's beauty in a lustful way.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
No one said objectification is inherently evil. However, objectification remains objectification.
When you say this:
"It's great to appreciate someone's beauty! I do this all the time, male or female. As long as you see them as human beings with feelings, and attempt to connect with their thoughts, feelings and intuitions as well."
You are conditioning "acceptable" attraction upon all this hippy stuff and implying that attraction without the latter sentence is wrong.
"It's great to appreciate someone's beauty! I do this all the time, male or female. As long as you see them as human beings with feelings, and attempt to connect with their thoughts, feelings and intuitions as well."
You are conditioning "acceptable" attraction upon all this hippy stuff and implying that attraction without the latter sentence is wrong.
I'm responsible for what I am in fact saying, not for what you read in to that.
When you look at someone as an object, you are objectifying them. Plain and simple. You can make that about "right" or "wrong". I remain on the simple level where the parameters of objectification are just that--the parameters of objectification.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
has anyone read Linda Lovelace's book? Where she recounts the control and abuse, inluding threat by weapons she endured during the era she made movies such as "Deep throat"?
Has anyone read Tracy Lord's book, which details the sexual assault she experienced as a child, and the other painful issues that brought her to the porn industry as an underaged girl? Of her then drug abuse as an adult porn star, and relationships with abusive men? All that is a little less "sexy" to acknowledge....
I've not read either book, but I've read plenty of stories. One star I was partial to said porn ruined her life, she's some sort of reformed Jesus freak now. More power to her. No, it's not cool. Nobody should have to suffer that kind of treatment. But all of the acts you mentioned are illegal in and of themselves and happen outside of the porn world. In addition, I think one star (can't recall the name) has built her own company run by and for women and it has been enormously successful. That is a good development.
Traci Lords' life is sad, to be sure, but she suffered the abuse before porn and statistically speaking, she's just as likely to have had abusive relationship and drug abuse whether or not she ended up in porn, as so many such victims do. Her career just made it easy to meet those people. Furthermore, it gave her the money and fame to turn her life around and speak out about abuse. It's quite likely had she not done this, she could have been living in the streets prostituting herself at the same age with no hope of ever getting out. I'm not saying porn is a great thing that saved her life, I'm just saying that none of this is black and white or simple. For every path, there are better and worse potential outcomes and the fact that she took one that had negative consequences doesn't make the path itself inherently wrong or bad and mean we should make it illegal.
I'm responsible for what I am in fact saying, not for what you read in to that.
When you look at someone as an object, you are objectifying them. Plain and simple. You can make that about "right" or "wrong". I remain on the simple level where the parameters of objectification are just that--the parameters of objectification.
If I read wrongly into that, please explain what you meant by it so that I might correct my thinking and adjust accordingly.
i certainly agree that objectification is objectification, and assignments of right or wrong in that is entirely subjective and based on one's own personal moral code. there are social parameters of such, but again, social constructs alone do not make something right or wrong specifically for you. i can at times see objectification as perfectly acceptible and at other times terrible....like most things, depends on context and perspective.
also why i can view pornography, prostitution, etc.....as perfectly acceptible, and both should be entirely legal, professions and past-times. individual 'bad' experiences, alone...do not make an entire life-choice bad for all.
I'm just saying that none of this is black and white or simple. For every path, there are better and worse potential outcomes and the fact that she took one that had negative consequences doesn't make the path itself inherently wrong or bad and mean we should make it illegal.
I completely agree with you. I don't see why admiring someone's beauty and being drawn to them sexually has to be mutual exclusive from respecting them. I can see a beautiful woman walking down the street and momentarily dream about being intimate with her, but that doesn't mean that I don't respect her as a person. As you said, I'm sure there are men and women out there that objectify people of the opposite, and same, sex but that doesn't mean that we all do or that we should be ashamed because we are drawn to someone's beauty in a lustful way.
I don't think anyone's saying you should be ashamed for objectifying a person. But you should be honest with yourself, accept the fact that you're objectifying, and think about if that's ok or not. Most people won't do this. They'll just pass it off as "oh well, that's just part of being a guy/girl"....maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I don't think it is. I think it's just the result of being trained that way. You can un-train yourself. I know I have to a certain degree.
I think the point is just that our conscious self should drive our overall thinking about people (even hot women).
I don't think anyone's saying you should be ashamed for objectifying a person. But you should be honest with yourself, accept the fact that you're objectifying, and think about if that's ok or not. Most people won't do this. They'll just pass it off as "oh well, that's just part of being a guy/girl"....maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I don't think it is. I think it's just the result of being trained that way. You can un-train yourself. I know I have to a certain degree.
I think the point is just that our conscious self should drive our overall thinking about people (even hot women).
I disagree. I don't think me seeing an attractive women and having a feeling of desire is objectification. I still respect her as a person, I don't see her as some sexual object there for my enjoyment to be discarded at my leisure. Yes there are plenty of people who think that way and that is objectification but simply having a desire for someone because you find them attractive is normal human behavior.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
I disagree. I don't think me seeing an attractive women and having a feeling of desire is objectification. I still respect her as a person, I don't see her as some sexual object there for my enjoyment to be discarded at my leisure. Yes there are plenty of people who think that way and that is objectification but simply having a desire for someone because you find them attractive is normal human behavior.
I disagree. I don't think me seeing an attractive women and having a feeling of desire is objectification. I still respect her as a person, I don't see her as some sexual object there for my enjoyment to be discarded at my leisure. Yes there are plenty of people who think that way and that is objectification but simply having a desire for someone because you find them attractive is normal human behavior.
i personally believes it all depends on how deeply into the meaning of 'objectification' you get into, and if you inherently believe it to encompass 'bad' connotations. personally, walking down the street and seeing someone very attractive, looking in a magazine and appreciating someone as hot/sexy, etc....i personally believe IS objectification. you are looking and judging based on appearances only, not knowing or considering the 'person' within, just their outward appearance. i also believe there is NOTHING WRONG with that. a picture is meant to be looked at, and if it is of some thing/one beautiful, we are meant to appreciate the said aesthetic beauty. if a person is passing in the street, again, it is not necessary to go beyond 'surfaces' unless one wants to. objectification, in and of itself, is not 'wrong'......it is, imo, when one is involved to some degree with a person and still objectifies them, that then i see 'wrong.' without interaction, i see neutrality with objectification. personal perspective tho, of course.
I don't think me seeing an attractive women and having a feeling of desire is objectification.
Yeah, but what's the basis for your desire? Her looks right? She could be a mass murderer for all you know, but you still desire her because it's only based on the external part of her being.
i personally believes it all depends on how deeply into the meaning of 'objectification' you get into, and if you inherently believe it to encompass 'bad' connotations. personally, walking down the street and seeing someone very attractive, looking in a magazine and appreciating someone as hot/sexy, etc....i personally believe IS objectification. you are looking and judging based on appearances only, not knowing or considering the 'person' within, just their outward appearance. i also believe there is NOTHING WRONG with that. a picture is meant to be looked at, and if it is of some thing/one beautiful, we are meant to appreciate the said aesthetic beauty. if a person is passing in the street, again, it is not necessary to go beyond 'surfaces' unless one wants to. objectification, in and of itself, is not 'wrong'......it is, imo, when one is involved to some degree with a person and still objectifies them, that then i see 'wrong.' without interaction, i see neutrality with objectification. personal perspective tho, of course.
But you have to admit that the word objectification does carry a negative association with it in our society. What you are saying is true but society tells us that objectification of women is bad, it's wrong, forcing men to some how be ashamed of themselves for even eyeing an attractive female. No offense to women, or the feminists on the board, but that negative association of objectification has largely been forced by the feminist movement.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Yeah, but what's the basis for your desire? Her looks right? She could be a mass murderer for all you know, but you still desire her because it's only based on the external part of her being.
That is pretty much how most relationships start. You don't see someone and think wow they seems to have great personality let me go up to him/her and introduce myself. We are first drawn to some one who is pleasing to the eye. That is the initial attraction and from there you get to know the person and if you find their character to be as or even more attractive than their physical features you tend to grow closer to the person.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
What about the example I gave earlier. Everytime I go out to a party I have to pay. Girls get in for free.
Injustice based on gender.
you're choosing to go to that party. choosing. it's a party. and the idea behind girls getting in for free, i'm guessing, is so they can get drunk and taken advantage of. that's the assumption behind free drinks---just look at this thread. yeah that's a GREAT deal for women!
women in the united states do not choose to make about 70 cents to the dollar (diff amounts for white women and women of color).
these are not the same things.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
But you have to admit that the word objectification does carry a negative association with it in our society. What you are saying is true but society tells us that objectification of women is bad, it's wrong, forcing men to some how be ashamed of themselves for even eyeing an attractive female. No offense to women, or the feminists on the board, but that negative association of objectification has largely been forced by the feminist movement.
That is what I have never understood. Why is admiring someone because they look really good somehow thought of as worse than admiring someone for any other kind of skill they have? I mean I used singing in a previous example, if you admire someone who is a good singer, aren't you just objectifying their vocal chords?
you're choosing to go to that party. choosing. it's a party. and the idea behind girls getting in for free, i'm guessing, is so they can get drunk and taken advantage of. that's the assumption behind free drinks---just look at this thread. yeah that's a GREAT deal for women!
women in the united states do not choose to make about 70 cents to the dollar (diff amounts for white women and women of color).
these are not the same things.
It's still unfair. A woman and a man choose to work the same job, one makes less. A woman and a man choose to go to the same party, one has to pay more. Still unfair, thus, under your definition earlier, it is oppression.
That is what I have never understood. Why is admiring someone because they look really good somehow thought of as worse than admiring someone for any other kind of skill they have? I mean I used singing in a previous example, if you admire someone who is a good singer, aren't you just objectifying their vocal chords?
Exactly. So in a sense we are all objectified by someone at some point in time.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
women in the united states do not choose to make about 70 cents to the dollar (diff amounts for white women and women of color).
I think I read somewhere that that whole concept of women making less then men accross the board was more of a myth than anything else. If it was true you would see more business that have all woman employees because business owners could pay them less. I think it comes from if you compare the average wage of a man with the average wage of a woman. But the average wage of a man is skewed higher because for example a man in his 50s will more than likely not have taken any time off from his job to raise kids so he will have more job experience then a woman of the exact same age. It is also skewed higher because men are more likely to take more dangerous and therefore higher paying jobs (deep sea fisherman, off shore oil rig worker).
I think I read somewhere that that whole concept of women making less then men accross the board was more of a myth than anything else. If it was true you would see more business that have all woman employees because business owners could pay them less. I think it comes from if you compare the average wage of a man with the average wage of a woman. But the average wage of a man is skewed higher because for example a man in his 50s will more than likely not have taken any time off from his job to raise kids so he will have more job experience then a woman of the exact same age. It is also skewed higher because men are more likely to take more dangerous and therefore higher paying jobs (deep sea fisherman, off shore oil rig worker).
income inequality does exist between males and females but the gap is closing. On the other hand income inequality is not closing when it comes to hispanic v. whites and black v. whites. The greatest difference though is between income levels. While higher income levels continue to increase those of lower income levels have remained essentially the same.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
But you have to admit that the word objectification does carry a negative association with it in our society. What you are saying is true but society tells us that objectification of women is bad, it's wrong, forcing men to some how be ashamed of themselves for even eyeing an attractive female. No offense to women, or the feminists on the board, but that negative association of objectification has largely been forced by the feminist movement.
i do admit that, but that doesn't mean i agree with it. and i don't 'blame' the feminist movement for it at all. drawing attention to the negative consequences of objectification is a good thing. taking that and then creating the idea that objectification, in and of itself, is a 'bad' thing....we as a society chose to do. either way, i disagree with it. to me, it's one's own personal morality to use as a compass. i objectify many things and people at times, and it is not 'bad.' we need to personally take ownership of our correct word usage and not just accept that 'society' or any one group tells us is 'right' or 'wrong.'
btw i always love sentence that begin with 'no offense to.......' b/c you just KNOW it is going to be followed with something that may be offensive (although that certainly wasn't)...so it's like asking for a *free pass* to be offensive. hahaha. the only thing i may take light 'offense' to is the use of the word force. but i think we've argued enough semantics the past couple days, so i'll let it go.
That is pretty much how most relationships start. You don't see someone and think wow they seems to have great personality let me go up to him/her and introduce myself. We are first drawn to some one who is pleasing to the eye. That is the initial attraction and from there you get to know the person and if you find their character to be as or even more attractive than their physical features you tend to grow closer to the person.
Can't disagree with that, but when your desire is totally based on her looks, it's objectification. For that brief period, she's an object of desire. Again, I'm not saying that's wrong (we all have to decide for ourselves if it is or not).
And again, it goes back to saying that "oh that's just how it works"...I'm saying it doesn't have to work that way. For me, there's another way. I can honestly say that the relationship I'm in now didn't start with a physical attraction. For you and others, it might not work that way, but saying "this is how most relationships start" or "that's just how guys/girls are" doesn't make one method more valid than another.
Comments
Who the hell has time every day to stop and think hard and connect with the thoughts, feelings, and intuitions of every person they lay eyes on? That sounds like something Stuart Smalley would say.
This is so absurd. So sexual fantasy is evil now? We can't think someone is attractive and then move on with our day and never give them another thought, except maybe a few minutes of inspiration for a wank session? We have to mentally romance them and love them and dwell deeply on what wonderful little snowflakes they are? You can't be serious.
You're wrong... I am madly in love with Keri Sable!
I know when ever I flip through Maxim I always wonder what the women's dreams and aspirations are. I sit and wonder what they where feeling when the posed half dressed for the photo shoot.
excellent point.
one's 'morality' may differ greatly from one person to the next, and as long as your actions are consentual and/or do not do harm to others.....there is no reason someone else's morality should be forced upon you.
and seriously, women can be just as *base* and emotionally disconnected from sexual experience as men. objectify, have purely sexual/physical intercourse sans emotion, etc. men may more likey typify such behaviors, but it certainly is not theirs alone. and agsin, there is nothing *wrong* with such behaviors if that is wht you desire and is mutually agreed upon. sure, such activities involved with someone you have an emotional attachment is even better.....but a shag with no strings is all cool too. depends what you're looking for.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
No kidding. I'm not saying there aren't plenty of guys who treat women like objects or a means to an end. But what she's talking about is human behavior that BOTH genders practice and it's not like it's inherently evil or anything. I don't think that objectification and love and empathy for one's humanity are necessarily mutually exclusive all the time. It's not like it I have a fantasy about a woman I find attractive I'm incapable of also caring about her. Shit, I have a lot of female friends that I would do anything for and that I respect and admire for their ambition... but I've still been known (rather, very carefully not known, hehe) to have the occasional daydream about them. My ex was the most intelligent and ambitious woman I ever knew and I loved that, but that doesn't mean that sometimes I didn't just eye her up and down sometimes and think "I've got to have that now!"
Amen.
I have.
Has anyone read Tracy Lord's book, which details the sexual assault she experienced as a child, and the other painful issues that brought her to the porn industry as an underaged girl? Of her then drug abuse as an adult porn star, and relationships with abusive men? All that is a little less "sexy" to acknowledge....
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I completely agree with you. I don't see why admiring someone's beauty and being drawn to them sexually has to be mutual exclusive from respecting them. I can see a beautiful woman walking down the street and momentarily dream about being intimate with her, but that doesn't mean that I don't respect her as a person. As you said, I'm sure there are men and women out there that objectify people of the opposite, and same, sex but that doesn't mean that we all do or that we should be ashamed because we are drawn to someone's beauty in a lustful way.
When you say this:
"It's great to appreciate someone's beauty! I do this all the time, male or female. As long as you see them as human beings with feelings, and attempt to connect with their thoughts, feelings and intuitions as well."
You are conditioning "acceptable" attraction upon all this hippy stuff and implying that attraction without the latter sentence is wrong.
When you look at someone as an object, you are objectifying them. Plain and simple. You can make that about "right" or "wrong". I remain on the simple level where the parameters of objectification are just that--the parameters of objectification.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I've not read either book, but I've read plenty of stories. One star I was partial to said porn ruined her life, she's some sort of reformed Jesus freak now. More power to her. No, it's not cool. Nobody should have to suffer that kind of treatment. But all of the acts you mentioned are illegal in and of themselves and happen outside of the porn world. In addition, I think one star (can't recall the name) has built her own company run by and for women and it has been enormously successful. That is a good development.
Traci Lords' life is sad, to be sure, but she suffered the abuse before porn and statistically speaking, she's just as likely to have had abusive relationship and drug abuse whether or not she ended up in porn, as so many such victims do. Her career just made it easy to meet those people. Furthermore, it gave her the money and fame to turn her life around and speak out about abuse. It's quite likely had she not done this, she could have been living in the streets prostituting herself at the same age with no hope of ever getting out. I'm not saying porn is a great thing that saved her life, I'm just saying that none of this is black and white or simple. For every path, there are better and worse potential outcomes and the fact that she took one that had negative consequences doesn't make the path itself inherently wrong or bad and mean we should make it illegal.
If I read wrongly into that, please explain what you meant by it so that I might correct my thinking and adjust accordingly.
also why i can view pornography, prostitution, etc.....as perfectly acceptible, and both should be entirely legal, professions and past-times. individual 'bad' experiences, alone...do not make an entire life-choice bad for all.
well stated.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I think the point is just that our conscious self should drive our overall thinking about people (even hot women).
I disagree. I don't think me seeing an attractive women and having a feeling of desire is objectification. I still respect her as a person, I don't see her as some sexual object there for my enjoyment to be discarded at my leisure. Yes there are plenty of people who think that way and that is objectification but simply having a desire for someone because you find them attractive is normal human behavior.
Agreed.
i personally believes it all depends on how deeply into the meaning of 'objectification' you get into, and if you inherently believe it to encompass 'bad' connotations. personally, walking down the street and seeing someone very attractive, looking in a magazine and appreciating someone as hot/sexy, etc....i personally believe IS objectification. you are looking and judging based on appearances only, not knowing or considering the 'person' within, just their outward appearance. i also believe there is NOTHING WRONG with that. a picture is meant to be looked at, and if it is of some thing/one beautiful, we are meant to appreciate the said aesthetic beauty. if a person is passing in the street, again, it is not necessary to go beyond 'surfaces' unless one wants to. objectification, in and of itself, is not 'wrong'......it is, imo, when one is involved to some degree with a person and still objectifies them, that then i see 'wrong.' without interaction, i see neutrality with objectification. personal perspective tho, of course.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
But you have to admit that the word objectification does carry a negative association with it in our society. What you are saying is true but society tells us that objectification of women is bad, it's wrong, forcing men to some how be ashamed of themselves for even eyeing an attractive female. No offense to women, or the feminists on the board, but that negative association of objectification has largely been forced by the feminist movement.
That is pretty much how most relationships start. You don't see someone and think wow they seems to have great personality let me go up to him/her and introduce myself. We are first drawn to some one who is pleasing to the eye. That is the initial attraction and from there you get to know the person and if you find their character to be as or even more attractive than their physical features you tend to grow closer to the person.
you're choosing to go to that party. choosing. it's a party. and the idea behind girls getting in for free, i'm guessing, is so they can get drunk and taken advantage of. that's the assumption behind free drinks---just look at this thread. yeah that's a GREAT deal for women!
women in the united states do not choose to make about 70 cents to the dollar (diff amounts for white women and women of color).
these are not the same things.
cross the river to the eastside
That is what I have never understood. Why is admiring someone because they look really good somehow thought of as worse than admiring someone for any other kind of skill they have? I mean I used singing in a previous example, if you admire someone who is a good singer, aren't you just objectifying their vocal chords?
It's still unfair. A woman and a man choose to work the same job, one makes less. A woman and a man choose to go to the same party, one has to pay more. Still unfair, thus, under your definition earlier, it is oppression.
Exactly. So in a sense we are all objectified by someone at some point in time.
I think I read somewhere that that whole concept of women making less then men accross the board was more of a myth than anything else. If it was true you would see more business that have all woman employees because business owners could pay them less. I think it comes from if you compare the average wage of a man with the average wage of a woman. But the average wage of a man is skewed higher because for example a man in his 50s will more than likely not have taken any time off from his job to raise kids so he will have more job experience then a woman of the exact same age. It is also skewed higher because men are more likely to take more dangerous and therefore higher paying jobs (deep sea fisherman, off shore oil rig worker).
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/GiveMeABreak/story?id=797045&page=1
income inequality does exist between males and females but the gap is closing. On the other hand income inequality is not closing when it comes to hispanic v. whites and black v. whites. The greatest difference though is between income levels. While higher income levels continue to increase those of lower income levels have remained essentially the same.
i do admit that, but that doesn't mean i agree with it. and i don't 'blame' the feminist movement for it at all. drawing attention to the negative consequences of objectification is a good thing. taking that and then creating the idea that objectification, in and of itself, is a 'bad' thing....we as a society chose to do. either way, i disagree with it. to me, it's one's own personal morality to use as a compass. i objectify many things and people at times, and it is not 'bad.' we need to personally take ownership of our correct word usage and not just accept that 'society' or any one group tells us is 'right' or 'wrong.'
btw i always love sentence that begin with 'no offense to.......' b/c you just KNOW it is going to be followed with something that may be offensive (although that certainly wasn't)...so it's like asking for a *free pass* to be offensive.
right. and there is nothing inherently wrong with it, either. it's all context.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
And again, it goes back to saying that "oh that's just how it works"...I'm saying it doesn't have to work that way. For me, there's another way. I can honestly say that the relationship I'm in now didn't start with a physical attraction. For you and others, it might not work that way, but saying "this is how most relationships start" or "that's just how guys/girls are" doesn't make one method more valid than another.