i question whether it is actually oppression or a societal pressure to conform? ... it is clear that whether you are looking at jobs and opportunity or even bike lanes - things are geared towards a certain demographic ... is it a matter of wanting women to conform or oppressing them?
are those mutually exclusive?
oh god i really have to my work now but i think you're asking a good question and just not totally sure i follow.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
oh god i really have to my work now but i think you're asking a good question and just not totally sure i follow.
not necessarily mutually exclusive but when the symptoms are the same sometimes we are too quick to diagnose one thing when it could be something else ...
are societal conditions set up to favour a certain demographic over others and "forcing" people to conform or be subjected to the injustices we are talking about?
IAlso, to add to your point about objectificaiton: Perhaps if women were not objectified we wouldn't learn from a young age that our sexuality is our most valuable asset, and therefore resort to selling that when we need money or affirmation.
Very true. My first sexual assault occurred when I was five years old and was orally sodomized. The third happened when I was sixteen, which is how I lost my virginity. It's not rocket science to see where my overly sexualized self, and my friends got our sense of identifying mainly with our sexuality, enough to send us towards the sex trade. 1 in 4 girls are sexually assaulted before adulthood. We must ask ourselves how is this happening? There is a LOT of objectification that gives the men who are doing these assaults the ability to blot out the feelings of a five year old child, for example. Or of a teenage girl saying "please don't, I'm a virgin" over and over, words falling on deaf ears. Real serious objectification. I spent many years in the realm of 'lower' functioning, and found many, many others like myself who were there along side me. And it was commonplace and normal that such happenings went on. I publicly speak in high schools...I just got home from a gig now. I told the kids at this alternative school...for many years I thought it was normal, acceptable behaviour to wake up and find my varying boyfriends having sex with me--an act that in each instance began without consent while I was asleep...because it was so common that it happened to me over and over, and when I spoke about it to others on my level, they also felt it was normal and common.
We have many rights that entitle women to equality, and they stem from theory and from the law, and don't as yet reflect where are are in terms of outcome as a society. Those laws are based on ideal principles, and are very, very much different than men and women operating in a balanced and equal way as commonplace. The reality is we operate under a patriarchal way, and it shows up over and over and over to the detriment of us all.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I believe inequalities exist for men and women. I believe both men and women are being discriminated against, and both are treated unfairly.
Anyway, if oppression is the unjust treatment of someone then yes men are definitely being oppressed.
This kind of goes against that theory you threw at me the last couple of times. You know, that power + prejudice = oppression and that those in power cannot be oppressed. With those in power you meant men.
Yes, that was what I was asking, the reason why is this:
This and the notion that if women weren't being oppressed - see glass ceiling - and objectified that prostitution wouldn't be seen as a last resort.
I have already explained why I think it'll always be there and it'll always been seen as a last resort even if we get rid of the oppression of women and the objectification. I believe you didn't entirely disagree.
Yeah, I don't think we'll ever 100% get rid of prostitution, but it's because I don't think we'll ever 100% get rid of objectification.
I think it's all very complicated and multi-faceted and, since you quoted VG, I'll say I think she would agree.
Very true. My first sexual assault occurred when I was five years old and was orally sodomized. The third happened when I was sixteen, which is how I lost my virginity. It's not rocket science to see where my overly sexualized self, and my friends got our sense of identifying mainly with our sexuality, enough to send us towards the sex trade. 1 in 4 girls are sexually assaulted before adulthood. We must ask ourselves how is this happening? There is a LOT of objectification that gives the men who are doing these assaults the ability to blot out the feelings of a five year old child, for example. Or of a teenage girl saying "please don't, I'm a virgin" over and over, words falling on deaf ears. Real serious objectification. I spent many years in the realm of 'lower' functioning, and found many, many others like myself who were there along side me. And it was commonplace and normal that such happenings went on. I publicly speak in high schools...I just got home from a gig now. I told the kids at this alternative school...for many years I thought it was normal, acceptable behaviour to wake up and find my varying boyfriends having sex with me--an act that in each instance began without consent while I was asleep...because it was so common that it happened to me over and over, and when I spoke about it to others on my level, they also felt it was normal and common.
We have many rights that entitle women to equality, and they stem from theory and from the law, and don't as yet reflect where are are in terms of outcome as a society. Those laws are based on ideal principles, and are very, very much different than men and women operating in a balanced and equal way as commonplace. The reality is we operate under a patriarchal way, and it shows up over and over and over to the detriment of us all.
I completely agree. And I think it's an extremely important point that many, many sex workers were/are sexually abused at some point. I'm really sorry that happened to you. :(
I say the John has the power because prostitutes (as a group) are a vulnerable population. They are frequently either being forced to do this or are in some compromising, desperate life circumdstance. Many are very young. Most are women, which puts them at greater risk of rape, other physical assault, STDs, and pregnancy. Oftentimes they need to get high in order to numb themselves up enough to engage in the act, which puts them in a vulnerable position as well. Many are homeless. Et cetera.
I guess the primary contributing factor, though, is the desperation that put them in this situation in the first place.
So it seems we just have different views on Prostitution. Sure all of these things exist within the prostitution world.
I'm saying from a healthy professional worker, like you might find in Amsterdam, who demands protection, gets checked for STD's, Has other options but Chooses to work in the sex industry, pays taxes, and runs her business as she sees fit. This person does not seem to be a victim, she does not seem to be at a disadvantage power wise. And has made adult choices to ply her trade as she sees fit.
So you are speaking about the ugliest, most oppressed side of prostitution and I'm speaking about it from the POV of a choice a healthy, happy individual might make.
Also I don't know how call girl services work between working professionals and their clientele, but I would guess it is more like any business transaction, rather than the whole street-walking situation.
So I might disagree that prostitutes are vulnerable under regulated working conditions.
Very true. My first sexual assault occurred when I was five years old and was orally sodomized. The third happened when I was sixteen, which is how I lost my virginity. It's not rocket science to see where my overly sexualized self, and my friends got our sense of identifying mainly with our sexuality, enough to send us towards the sex trade. 1 in 4 girls are sexually assaulted before adulthood. We must ask ourselves how is this happening? There is a LOT of objectification that gives the men who are doing these assaults the ability to blot out the feelings of a five year old child, for example. Or of a teenage girl saying "please don't, I'm a virgin" over and over, words falling on deaf ears. Real serious objectification. I spent many years in the realm of 'lower' functioning, and found many, many others like myself who were there along side me. And it was commonplace and normal that such happenings went on. I publicly speak in high schools...I just got home from a gig now. I told the kids at this alternative school...for many years I thought it was normal, acceptable behaviour to wake up and find my varying boyfriends having sex with me--an act that in each instance began without consent while I was asleep...because it was so common that it happened to me over and over, and when I spoke about it to others on my level, they also felt it was normal and common.
We have many rights that entitle women to equality, and they stem from theory and from the law, and don't as yet reflect where are are in terms of outcome as a society. Those laws are based on ideal principles, and are very, very much different than men and women operating in a balanced and equal way as commonplace. The reality is we operate under a patriarchal way, and it shows up over and over and over to the detriment of us all.
I don't know if I understood you clearly, and I apologize if i didn't, but are you saying that acts of pedophilia stem from the objectification of women. If that is the case I honestly and completely disagree. I can see how rape can be viewed this way but not pedophilia.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
I completely agree. And I think it's an extremely important point that many, many sex workers were/are sexually abused at some point. I'm really sorry that happened to you. :(
Thank-you.
Yes, many many. It's a very important connection.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
So it seems we just have different views on Prostitution. Sure all of these things exist within the prostitution world.
I'm saying from a healthy professional worker, like you might find in Amsterdam, who demands protection, gets checked for STD's, Has other options but Chooses to work in the sex industry, pays taxes, and runs her business as she sees fit. This person does not seem to be a victim, she does not seem to be at a disadvantage power wise. And has made adult choices to ply her trade as she sees fit.
So you are speaking about the ugliest, most oppressed side of prostitution and I'm speaking about it from the POV of a choice a healthy, happy individual might make.
Also I don't know how call girl services work between working professionals and their clientele, but I would guess it is more like any business transaction, rather than the whole street-walking situation.
So I might disagree that prostitutes are vulnerable under regulated working conditions.
I'm just trying to be realistic. In the U.S. right now, they don't have regulated working conditions, many have made the choice out of desperation, and many are on drugs. Given that the sex slave industry is huge worldwide, it's often much worse outside the U.S. with children being forced into prostitution. And this is not to mention that women are at greater risk than men physically, whether they are otherwise vulnerable or not.
I don't think the situation you portray is representative of the vast majority of prostitutes in the world.
I don't know if I understood you clearly, and I apologize if i didn't, but are you saying that acts of pedophilia stem from the objectification of women. If that is the case I honestly and completely disagree. I can see how rape can be viewed this way but not pedophilia.
But pedophilia is rape. How does age (or lack thereof) make it any better/different? It may have an added component, but it's still just as objectifying as the rape of adults, plus young girls' bodies are sexually objectified as well.
I don't know if I understood you clearly, and I apologize if i didn't, but are you saying that acts of pedophilia stem from the objectification of women. If that is the case I honestly and completely disagree. I can see how rape can be viewed this way but not pedophilia.
As I said earlier, the general meaning of objectification is when one treats another as an object, tuning out their feelings. It's very clear that when one is orally penetrating a five year old child, one has tuned out the child's feelings and is treating the child like an object, rather than as a human being. And as I pointed out, the sexual assault of our female children happens a LOT in our civilized society. Objectification may or may not be a cause, even though it certainly underlies many of our dysfunctions. this is why I say we pay a huge cost for the fact that it is normal for us to teach our children to tune out their feelings. (in my experience, this is a normal practise) We generally don't focus on the fact that we do this, nor have the insight or understanding into the consequences. For example, how do we as a civilized society have so many sexually assaulted girl children? We don't really focus on this. It almost doesn't fit with how we see ourselves because we seem to want to identify with our ideals, rather than the reality. In my case, none of those who sexually assaulted me before adulthood were adults...when I was 5, the offenders were teenage boys. When I was 16, they were also teenage boys. Although these were situations of abuse, and abuses of power, they were not instances of pedophilia. And granted, I'm sure many of these cases involving children are. Whatever the case, tuning out the humanity of another person while one focuses on their own sexual gratification is .... objectification.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
But pedophilia is rape. How does age (or lack thereof) make it any better/different? It may have an added component, but it's still just as objectifying as the rape of adults, plus young girls' bodies are sexually objectified as well.
I was under the impression that the number of boys and girls where where sexually abused as child where pretty even. That would run contrary to it stemming from the objectification of women. Also, and please correct me if I'm wrong, objectification has a sense of sexuality attached to it. Women are objectified because of their sexual attraction and their beauty. While a pedophile is attracted to you girls and boys it can be argued that they are not sexual beings being too young to understand their sexuality.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
But pedophilia is rape. How does age (or lack thereof) make it any better/different? It may have an added component, but it's still just as objectifying as the rape of adults, plus young girls' bodies are sexually objectified as well.
it's easier to commit acts of violence against something one objectifies because when one objectifies, one removes a sense of respect, equality, intelligence, other things associated with being a person---a person like the one who is objectifying. we perpetuate the cycle as we participate. violence will continue.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
Also, and please correct me if I'm wrong, objectification has a sense of sexuality attached to it. Women are objectified because of their sexual attraction and their beauty.
you are wrong. They are objectified when the person doing the objectification is showing a lack. It's not about sexuality.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
As I said earlier, the general meaning of objectification is when one treats another as an object, tuning out their feelings. It's very clear that when one is orally penetrating a five year old child, one has tuned out the child's feelings and is treating the child like an object, rather than as a human being. And as I pointed out, the sexual assault of our female children happens a LOT in our civilized society. Objectification may or may not be a cause, even though it certainly underlies many of our dysfunctions. this is why I say we pay a huge cost for the fact that it is normal for us to teach our children to tune out their feelings. (in my experience, this is a normal practise) We generally don't focus on the fact that we do this, nor have the insight or understanding into the consequences. For example, how do we as a civilized society have so many sexually assaulted girl children? We don't really focus on this. It almost doesn't fit with how we see ourselves because we seem to want to identify with our ideals, rather than the reality. In my case, none of those who sexually assaulted me before adulthood were adults...when I was 5, the offenders were teenage boys. When I was 16, they were also teenage boys. Although these were situations of abuse, and abuses of power, they were not instances of pedophilia. And granted, I'm sure many of these cases involving children are. Whatever the case, tuning out the humanity of another person while one focuses on their own sexual gratification is .... objectification.
I misunderstood what you where saying at first and I would definitely agree with what you are saying. Victims of pedophilia, rape, incest, etc... are definitely viewed as objects by their attackers. I think in cases of rape though that societies tendency to portray women as merely sexual eye candy may help promote rape to people who are already desensitized to the feelings and health of others. I don't see that as being the case with pedophilia as children are not presented in the same manner by society so that is why I originally disagreed with you, but none the less as you said they are all treated as objects rather than people.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
I'm just trying to be realistic. In the U.S. right now, they don't have regulated working conditions, many have made the choice out of desperation, and many are on drugs. Given that the sex slave industry is huge worldwide, it's often much worse outside the U.S. with children being forced into prostitution. And this is not to mention that women are at greater risk than men physically, whether they are otherwise vulnerable or not.
I don't think the situation you portray is representative of the vast majority of prostitutes in the world.
Agreed the situation I portrayed does not represent the world as it is. But I have tried to stay true to the original theme. Should prostitution be legal.
I say yes, and I believe as a regulated industry (like in Nevada, or Amsterdam), we begin to shed away some of the issues that plague the industry now. Perhaps even to the extent that there is not a victim, and no power play, just two consenting adults making a business transaction.
If we as a society allowed prostitution and didn't force it into the ugliest corners of the criminal world, then it could be a transaction as simple as buying a loaf of bread. And thought of without negative stigmatism.
From reading this thread it seems as if some might disagree, and there is some thought it seems that if women were not oppressed, or if women were not objectified by men, then prostitution would disappear as an industry.
I think this is unrealistic and ignores our basic DNA. Some men might go to prostitutes to objectify them, but most go because they want to have sex. (Nothing sinister about that.)
I was under the impression that the number of boys and girls where where sexually abused as child where pretty even. That would run contrary to it stemming from the objectification of women.
"Approximately 20% to 25% of women and 5% to 15% of men were sexually abused when they were children"
I think we are on two different pages here. When I say objectification I am referring to the way society portrays women as sexually arousing eye candy. Obviously there are other forms of objectifying a human being, which seems what Angelica and scb are referring to. I agree that violent acts against another human being does in part stem from objectifications. I would think that an attacker would have to view their victim as nothing more than an object in order to perpetrate some horrible act upon them.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
We do know the vast majority of people doing this objectification, of girls and boys, are males.
I knew that the vast majority of offender where male but I was under the, misinformed, impression that there was not such a huge gap between the victim's gender.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
I was under the impression that the number of boys and girls where where sexually abused as child where pretty even. That would run contrary to it stemming from the objectification of women.
That's an interesting theory, and I see your point. I was thinking more about how young teenage girls are sexualized in the media, and how it's considered sexy to dress like a little girl, for instance.
But, regarding your point, I would argue that perhaps socializing men to objectify women teaches them to objectify people in general, and that includes young boys who they can control.
Also, and please correct me if I'm wrong, objectification has a sense of sexuality attached to it. Women are objectified because of their sexual attraction and their beauty. While a pedophile is attracted to you girls and boys it can be argued that they are not sexual beings being too young to understand their sexuality.
But it's not about the sexuality of the object so much as it's about how that object can gratify the sexuality of the one doing the objectifying. (Does that make sense?) So the object does not have to be aware of his/her own sexuality.
not necessarily mutually exclusive but when the symptoms are the same sometimes we are too quick to diagnose one thing when it could be something else ...
are societal conditions set up to favour a certain demographic over others and "forcing" people to conform or be subjected to the injustices we are talking about?
are you asking if society either 1. forces people to conform or 2. forces people to be subjected? i'm sorry i'm trying to write a paper and so i'm not quick to be clear on your question---also because if that's what you're asking i think it can be both but that's a good question i need to think about . . . after this paper.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
it's easier to commit acts of violence against something one objectifies because when one objectifies, one removes a sense of respect, equality, intelligence, other things associated with being a person---a person like the one who is objectifying. we perpetuate the cycle as we participate. violence will continue.
This reminds me of that scene in Silence of the Lambs where the crazy guy was keeping the woman in the dungeon and kept referring to her in the 3rd person, as "it". :eek:
I misunderstood what you where saying at first and I would definitely agree with what you are saying. Victims of pedophilia, rape, incest, etc... are definitely viewed as objects by their attackers. I think in cases of rape though that societies tendency to portray women as merely sexual eye candy may help promote rape to people who are already desensitized to the feelings and health of others. I don't see that as being the case with pedophilia as children are not presented in the same manner by society so that is why I originally disagreed with you, but none the less as you said they are all treated as objects rather than people.
I do agree that society portraying women as eye-candy desensitizes people. I consider that objectification. It's very common, and happens with children, too (this sexualization/objectification of them), as I think scb said. Desensitization is a large part of some common issues of objectification of women through pornography, that some/many of us women take issue with and which has been proven to be a large issue in desensitizing men to women in terms of gratification. By proven, I mean in scientific studies. This desensitization is not just one playing into rape, but into the common objectification of and desensitization to women.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Agreed the situation I portrayed does not represent the world as it is. But I have tried to stay true to the original theme. Should prostitution be legal.
I say yes, and I believe as a regulated industry (like in Nevada, or Amsterdam), we begin to shed away some of the issues that plague the industry now. Perhaps even to the extent that there is not a victim, and no power play, just two consenting adults making a business transaction.
If we as a society allowed prostitution and didn't force it into the ugliest corners of the criminal world, then it could be a transaction as simple as buying a loaf of bread. And thought of without negative stigmatism.
From reading this thread it seems as if some might disagree, and there is some thought it seems that if women were not oppressed, or if women were not objectified by men, then prostitution would disappear as an industry.
I think this is unrealistic and ignores our basic DNA. Some men might go to prostitutes to objectify them, but most go because they want to have sex. (Nothing sinister about that.)
Oh, well you threw me off by staying on topic! I think I've seen most people, if not everyone, in this thread agree that prostitution should be legal, and I don't think I've read anyone state that they believe it will ever go away 100%. But that's not to say that women shouldn't be objectified and that prostitution is not part of (or a result of) that process.
We do know the vast majority of people doing this objectification, of girls and boys, are males.
i recently read the most fascinating study (to me) about people with disassociative identity disorder. this is kind of OT, but women develop DID at much higher rates than men. DID occurs in people who experienced severe abuse and neglect as children. not only do women experience DID at much higher rates, they have more personalities than men with DID have. like double. and the personalities in everyone are amazingly gendered as stereotypical gender roles. the protector, the persecutor, are male, the child is female. it lends amazing support to socialization of gender roles. god i have to do my paper. seriously.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
That's an interesting theory, and I see your point. I was thinking more about how young teenage girls are sexualized in the media, and how it's considered sexy to dress like a little girl, for instance.
But, regarding your point, I would argue that perhaps socializing men to objectify women teaches them to objectify people in general, and that includes young boys who they can control.
But it's not about the sexuality of the object so much as it's about how that object can gratify the sexuality of the one doing the objectifying. (Does that make sense?) So the object does not have to be aware of his/her own sexuality.
I definitely think that the medias over-sexualization of teenage girls can lead to more instances of rape in that age group. I'm not saying that it will make a perfectly normal teenage boy go out and start raping girls his age but it can definitely affect a boy, or girl, who already has a certain level of desensitization or emotional detachment. The same applies for adults when they are constantly bombarded with images of scantily clad seductive women. It can easily be misrepresented, by an already confused mind, that women (or men) are simply objects for our own desires and pleasure.
As far as pedophilia, it is a bit harder for me to grasp since I can't possible see children as a means to fulfill my sexual desires. Even though i would never rape a women I can fully understand the desire to want to have sex with an attractive women, not through force of course. With children though it is unimaginable to me how some one can see them in that manner.So i guess that is why i have a hard time corralating pedophilia with sexual objectification.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Oh, well you threw me off by staying on topic! I think I've seen most people, if not everyone, in this thread agree that prostitution should be legal, and I don't think I've read anyone state that they believe it will ever go away 100%. But that's not to say that women shouldn't be objectified and that prostitution is not part of (or a result of) that process.
I do agree that society portraying women as eye-candy desensitizes people. I consider that objectification. It's very common, and happens with children, too (this sexualization/objectification of them), as I think scb said. Desensitization is a large part of some common issues of objectification of women through pornography, that some/many of us women take issue with and which has been proven to be a large issue in desensitizing men to women in terms of gratification. By proven, I mean in scientific studies. This desensitization is not just one playing into rape, but into the common objectification of and desensitization to women.
I'm not arguing with you. As I stated, after you elaborated a bit more on your point, that i completely agree with. The desensitization of women is definitely hand in hand with objectification. I also agree that our society, especially the media, has in large part brought teenage girls into this as well. I see it everyday with my girlfriend's 13 year old daughter and her friends. Some of her friends dress so provocative that I am embarrassed to be in the same house as them. Here are these, what I still consider little girls, walking around as if they where Playboy Playmates and I find that extremely disturbing. The way society has objectified women has largely stolen these young girls childhood, in my opinion.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
i recently read the most fascinating study (to me) about people with disassociative identity disorder. this is kind of OT, but women develop DID at much higher rates than men. DID occurs in people who experienced severe abuse and neglect as children. not only do women experience DID at much higher rates, they have more personalities than men with DID have. like double. and the personalities in everyone are amazingly gendered as stereotypical gender roles. the protector, the persecutor, are male, the child is female. it lends amazing support to socialization of gender roles. god i have to do my paper. seriously.
DID is fascinating. I've read books on it for years, and since I've been working in Crisis services, it's amazing to be able to interact with these people front and centre.
Speaking of disassociation on a different level,...after my first few sexual assaults, the last major one I experienced as an adult, the minute it started, and considering I was telling the person "no" clearly, and he was clearly not listening, I just disassociated wtihout realizing it. So "I", was down a long tunnel, detached from him, even though he was right in front of me assaulting me. He didn't even realize that I was vacant--gone. He thought I gave up my "fight" and sense of "not wanting it". The disassociation prevented me from fighting back, or more adamantly stopping him, and this was due to earlier traumas that were not yet resolved, but that I had hived off somewhere, but that suddenly overloaded my mind. After the assault, my sister who was in another room when it happened, blamed me because I didn't cry "rape".
I looked up this person who perpetrated this assault on me this year, and he genuinely had no idea what happened. He accepted full accountability for my experience, and for the fact that he didn't listen to my "no". It was only when I wrote about the experience in the book I'm writing that I realized how often I've disassociated, and while it protected my psyche, it didn't not lend to the prevention of occuring assaults.
On the other hand, I spent years being able to account these atrocities, because I didn't feel the hurt they caused. And by the time I did feel the hurt, and reassociate to my experience, I had the tools to feel safe and okay.
Our human systems and how we deal with trauma is amazing.
This same disassociation would have enabled me to be a mighty fine prostitute, in that I have been able to be totally detached of the sex act while partaking of it. For years sex was a big issue of control for me. Sadly, in the way that often the abused become abusers, I was emotionally tuned out, and therefore tuned out from the emotions of those I was interacting with. The thing was, I seemed confident, and well-adjusted about it. The problem is that I could come of as 'together' if I wanted to, and yet I hid my many inner traumas and deep pain from even myself. I don't doubt that such unconscious content led me to the ongoing revictimization I continually attracted to myself until I reclaimed my truth, whereupon it all stopped.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Comments
men can be oppressed in racial and class ways.
cross the river to the eastside
are those mutually exclusive?
oh god i really have to my work now but i think you're asking a good question and just not totally sure i follow.
cross the river to the eastside
not necessarily mutually exclusive but when the symptoms are the same sometimes we are too quick to diagnose one thing when it could be something else ...
are societal conditions set up to favour a certain demographic over others and "forcing" people to conform or be subjected to the injustices we are talking about?
We have many rights that entitle women to equality, and they stem from theory and from the law, and don't as yet reflect where are are in terms of outcome as a society. Those laws are based on ideal principles, and are very, very much different than men and women operating in a balanced and equal way as commonplace. The reality is we operate under a patriarchal way, and it shows up over and over and over to the detriment of us all.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Aw... you DO pay attention! I'm flattered!
Hey, man, you've gotta pay for your opportunity to objectify the hot young women in those parties!
Yeah, I don't think we'll ever 100% get rid of prostitution, but it's because I don't think we'll ever 100% get rid of objectification.
I think it's all very complicated and multi-faceted and, since you quoted VG, I'll say I think she would agree.
I completely agree. And I think it's an extremely important point that many, many sex workers were/are sexually abused at some point. I'm really sorry that happened to you. :(
So it seems we just have different views on Prostitution. Sure all of these things exist within the prostitution world.
I'm saying from a healthy professional worker, like you might find in Amsterdam, who demands protection, gets checked for STD's, Has other options but Chooses to work in the sex industry, pays taxes, and runs her business as she sees fit. This person does not seem to be a victim, she does not seem to be at a disadvantage power wise. And has made adult choices to ply her trade as she sees fit.
So you are speaking about the ugliest, most oppressed side of prostitution and I'm speaking about it from the POV of a choice a healthy, happy individual might make.
Also I don't know how call girl services work between working professionals and their clientele, but I would guess it is more like any business transaction, rather than the whole street-walking situation.
So I might disagree that prostitutes are vulnerable under regulated working conditions.
I don't know if I understood you clearly, and I apologize if i didn't, but are you saying that acts of pedophilia stem from the objectification of women. If that is the case I honestly and completely disagree. I can see how rape can be viewed this way but not pedophilia.
Yes, many many. It's a very important connection.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I'm just trying to be realistic. In the U.S. right now, they don't have regulated working conditions, many have made the choice out of desperation, and many are on drugs. Given that the sex slave industry is huge worldwide, it's often much worse outside the U.S. with children being forced into prostitution. And this is not to mention that women are at greater risk than men physically, whether they are otherwise vulnerable or not.
I don't think the situation you portray is representative of the vast majority of prostitutes in the world.
But pedophilia is rape. How does age (or lack thereof) make it any better/different? It may have an added component, but it's still just as objectifying as the rape of adults, plus young girls' bodies are sexually objectified as well.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I was under the impression that the number of boys and girls where where sexually abused as child where pretty even. That would run contrary to it stemming from the objectification of women. Also, and please correct me if I'm wrong, objectification has a sense of sexuality attached to it. Women are objectified because of their sexual attraction and their beauty. While a pedophile is attracted to you girls and boys it can be argued that they are not sexual beings being too young to understand their sexuality.
it's easier to commit acts of violence against something one objectifies because when one objectifies, one removes a sense of respect, equality, intelligence, other things associated with being a person---a person like the one who is objectifying. we perpetuate the cycle as we participate. violence will continue.
cross the river to the eastside
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I misunderstood what you where saying at first and I would definitely agree with what you are saying. Victims of pedophilia, rape, incest, etc... are definitely viewed as objects by their attackers. I think in cases of rape though that societies tendency to portray women as merely sexual eye candy may help promote rape to people who are already desensitized to the feelings and health of others. I don't see that as being the case with pedophilia as children are not presented in the same manner by society so that is why I originally disagreed with you, but none the less as you said they are all treated as objects rather than people.
Agreed the situation I portrayed does not represent the world as it is. But I have tried to stay true to the original theme. Should prostitution be legal.
I say yes, and I believe as a regulated industry (like in Nevada, or Amsterdam), we begin to shed away some of the issues that plague the industry now. Perhaps even to the extent that there is not a victim, and no power play, just two consenting adults making a business transaction.
If we as a society allowed prostitution and didn't force it into the ugliest corners of the criminal world, then it could be a transaction as simple as buying a loaf of bread. And thought of without negative stigmatism.
From reading this thread it seems as if some might disagree, and there is some thought it seems that if women were not oppressed, or if women were not objectified by men, then prostitution would disappear as an industry.
I think this is unrealistic and ignores our basic DNA. Some men might go to prostitutes to objectify them, but most go because they want to have sex. (Nothing sinister about that.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse
We do know the vast majority of people doing this objectification, of girls and boys, are males.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I knew that the vast majority of offender where male but I was under the, misinformed, impression that there was not such a huge gap between the victim's gender.
That's an interesting theory, and I see your point. I was thinking more about how young teenage girls are sexualized in the media, and how it's considered sexy to dress like a little girl, for instance.
But, regarding your point, I would argue that perhaps socializing men to objectify women teaches them to objectify people in general, and that includes young boys who they can control.
But it's not about the sexuality of the object so much as it's about how that object can gratify the sexuality of the one doing the objectifying. (Does that make sense?) So the object does not have to be aware of his/her own sexuality.
are you asking if society either 1. forces people to conform or 2. forces people to be subjected? i'm sorry i'm trying to write a paper and so i'm not quick to be clear on your question---also because if that's what you're asking i think it can be both but that's a good question i need to think about . . . after this paper.
cross the river to the eastside
This reminds me of that scene in Silence of the Lambs where the crazy guy was keeping the woman in the dungeon and kept referring to her in the 3rd person, as "it". :eek:
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Oh, well you threw me off by staying on topic!
i recently read the most fascinating study (to me) about people with disassociative identity disorder. this is kind of OT, but women develop DID at much higher rates than men. DID occurs in people who experienced severe abuse and neglect as children. not only do women experience DID at much higher rates, they have more personalities than men with DID have. like double. and the personalities in everyone are amazingly gendered as stereotypical gender roles. the protector, the persecutor, are male, the child is female. it lends amazing support to socialization of gender roles. god i have to do my paper. seriously.
cross the river to the eastside
I definitely think that the medias over-sexualization of teenage girls can lead to more instances of rape in that age group. I'm not saying that it will make a perfectly normal teenage boy go out and start raping girls his age but it can definitely affect a boy, or girl, who already has a certain level of desensitization or emotional detachment. The same applies for adults when they are constantly bombarded with images of scantily clad seductive women. It can easily be misrepresented, by an already confused mind, that women (or men) are simply objects for our own desires and pleasure.
As far as pedophilia, it is a bit harder for me to grasp since I can't possible see children as a means to fulfill my sexual desires. Even though i would never rape a women I can fully understand the desire to want to have sex with an attractive women, not through force of course. With children though it is unimaginable to me how some one can see them in that manner.So i guess that is why i have a hard time corralating pedophilia with sexual objectification.
Fair points.
I'm not arguing with you. As I stated, after you elaborated a bit more on your point, that i completely agree with. The desensitization of women is definitely hand in hand with objectification. I also agree that our society, especially the media, has in large part brought teenage girls into this as well. I see it everyday with my girlfriend's 13 year old daughter and her friends. Some of her friends dress so provocative that I am embarrassed to be in the same house as them. Here are these, what I still consider little girls, walking around as if they where Playboy Playmates and I find that extremely disturbing. The way society has objectified women has largely stolen these young girls childhood, in my opinion.
Speaking of disassociation on a different level,...after my first few sexual assaults, the last major one I experienced as an adult, the minute it started, and considering I was telling the person "no" clearly, and he was clearly not listening, I just disassociated wtihout realizing it. So "I", was down a long tunnel, detached from him, even though he was right in front of me assaulting me. He didn't even realize that I was vacant--gone. He thought I gave up my "fight" and sense of "not wanting it". The disassociation prevented me from fighting back, or more adamantly stopping him, and this was due to earlier traumas that were not yet resolved, but that I had hived off somewhere, but that suddenly overloaded my mind. After the assault, my sister who was in another room when it happened, blamed me because I didn't cry "rape".
I looked up this person who perpetrated this assault on me this year, and he genuinely had no idea what happened. He accepted full accountability for my experience, and for the fact that he didn't listen to my "no". It was only when I wrote about the experience in the book I'm writing that I realized how often I've disassociated, and while it protected my psyche, it didn't not lend to the prevention of occuring assaults.
On the other hand, I spent years being able to account these atrocities, because I didn't feel the hurt they caused. And by the time I did feel the hurt, and reassociate to my experience, I had the tools to feel safe and okay.
Our human systems and how we deal with trauma is amazing.
This same disassociation would have enabled me to be a mighty fine prostitute, in that I have been able to be totally detached of the sex act while partaking of it. For years sex was a big issue of control for me. Sadly, in the way that often the abused become abusers, I was emotionally tuned out, and therefore tuned out from the emotions of those I was interacting with. The thing was, I seemed confident, and well-adjusted about it. The problem is that I could come of as 'together' if I wanted to, and yet I hid my many inner traumas and deep pain from even myself. I don't doubt that such unconscious content led me to the ongoing revictimization I continually attracted to myself until I reclaimed my truth, whereupon it all stopped.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!