Patriotism

Restless Soul · December 2006

CaterinaA wrote:

By this definition I'm not a patriot either. But, I see nothing wrong with being fond of your country's culture or good doings. For example, I was born in Chile, raised in Venezuela and I'm currently living in Argentina. I feel a connection to each country, and when I was in school I would find the biggest waste of time to sing the anthem, and to pay respect to the flag and Simon Bolivar's statue and whatnot. I still think it's silly. Yet, I have to admit that when I listen to Venezuela's or Chile's anthem in a sports competition I feel something inside me, maybe nostalgia, maybe the memories of friends, relatives and good times come back all of a sudden...also since my father is Italian I have a strong connection to Italia's culture, as well. I guess I don't know where I'm from .

Seriously, what I strongly disagree is with totalitarian visions, like "my country is the best". Such kind of statements are wrong to me, because you country is the best to you, given your preferences, your taste, the sociopolitical conditions of the country, the landscapes, the economic conditions of the country, the idiosyncracy of the country, and many other subjective factors (by subjetctive I refer to the weight or relevance you give to each aspect). In my case I don't feel proud of any of "my countries" per se, I can see and underline a good thing they are doing (likewise I stress the things that are not being done correctly), but I in general I tend to feel joy or whatever for personal or small collective achievements, like Italy winning the WC, Nalbandian's outstanding career, Borges' books, Neruda's poems, Venezuela's soccer improvements...

And the fact that our world is divided in countries is for administrative, organizational and practical reasons. The concept of a country (or Nation-Sate) is rather new, though, it begun to "become popular" in the end of the XIXth century, for geopolitical reasons, mainly.

Very eloquently said, and I agree with you.

Personally I'm conflicted in my own sense of patriotism. I've always thought of myself as a non-patriotic person anyway because I felt no loyalties to Britain either, because of subjective reasons, mainly the racism we experienced when I was little. I've lived in britain since I was 6 months old but am originally from India. When I was little I felt nothing for India either because I didn't have any sense of it as a country or that it had anything to do with me.
However, as I grew up and learned the history of Britain and India for some reason I've developed a real feeling for India, even though I wouldn't call it patriotism. I just feel more strongly about defending it when I hear it being criticised, even though I know its not perfect, than I would about defending Britain. I don't know why that is really. I think it might be due to the realisation that there always seems to be a sense of unconscious superiority running through british (white) society over us non-whites and this makes me feel unforgiving about it, which is why I lack loyalty to Britain.

But patriotism is over-rated anyway.

Cosmo · December 2006

For me... Patriotism (like Faith) is personal. Waving a flag around to show other people how patriotic you are is not my gig. I don't need to show anyone my patriotism... I already know what it is.
Mine are the beliefs in the principles granted to us by our Constitutuion, not by wearing or waving a flag, repeating some creepy pledge or singing an unsingable anthem. And patriotism to me has nothing to do with going overseas to kill somebody with a gun... any more than i would equate personal happiness, liberty and freedom with the ability to purchase goods at always the lowest price, always. I believe in our foundation and the rights we possess... not our military might or our political leaders.
It's our Freedoms that people have died for... not our flag. I wish we could extend our rights and freedoms to the rest of the world... but, I don't believe we should do it at gunpoint. For me, I would rather us provide a shining example of how great and precious these freedoms are... lead by shining example and provide the model for others to want... instead of going half way around the globe and throwing hand grenades and money at them.
And as a Patriot... I am worried about my America. People here want to silence the Press... the fourth Branch of our Government... because they don't like what they are hearing. well, in places like North Korea and Iran, the press only broadcasts 'Good News'. I want no part of that.
I know America has faults and makes mistakes. but, as americans, shouldn't we OWN UP to those mistakes instead of making excuses for them? For me, Patriotism is about accepting your country for all it's good and all of its bad and trying to eliminate the bad. I know I'm fighting for a lost cause... but, I'm a Patriot... so, I'll continue to fight.

Byrnzie · December 2006

jlew24asu wrote:

maybe we have a different meaning of what it is to be a patriot. I consider myself a patriot because I love America. without looking through this thread, I think you disagree that love for one's country doesnt equate to being a patriot.

I'd say that having travelled abroad often and spent time in other countries which I deemed to have a better way of life than Britain, has made me see things with a wider lense. A lot of Europeans now travel freely and regularly throughout Europe and see themselves as primarily European, and worldly, as opposed to French, Italian, or German e.t.c.
I imagine that Americans have more difficulty in travelling around so easily, mainly due to geographical and financial reasons. Being the wealthiest country in the America's I expect that it's only natural you see yourselves as being 'the best country in the world'. As i said above, America can conceivably be seen as possessing many countries within itself due to the variety and vastness of the place. Although ultimately all of these disparate places are still America.
I think it's an interesting subject, and to be honest I'm too tired now to think clearly about it. But I hope you get my drift?

angelica · December 2006

Cosmo wrote:

For me... Patriotism (like Faith) is personal. Waving a flag around to show other people how patriotic you are is not my gig. I don't need to show anyone my patriotism... I already know what it is.
Mine are the beliefs in the principles granted to us by our Constitutuion, not by wearing or waving a flag, repeating some creepy pledge or singing an unsingable anthem. And patriotism to me has nothing to do with going overseas to kill somebody with a gun... any more than i would equate personal happiness, liberty and freedom with the ability to purchase goods at always the lowest price, always. I believe in our foundation and the rights we possess... not our military might or our political leaders.
It's our Freedoms that people have died for... not our flag. I wish we could extend our rights and freedoms to the rest of the world... but, I don't believe we should do it at gunpoint. For me, I would rather us provide a shining example of how great and precious these freedoms are... lead by shining example and provide the model for others to want... instead of going half way around the globe and throwing hand grenades and money at them.
And as a Patriot... I am worried about my America. People here want to silence the Press... the fourth Branch of our Government... because they don't like what they are hearing. well, in places like North Korea and Iran, the press only broadcasts 'Good News'. I want no part of that.
I know America has faults and makes mistakes. but, as americans, shouldn't we OWN UP to those mistakes instead of making excuses for them? For me, Patriotism is about accepting your country for all it's good and all of its bad and trying to eliminate the bad. I know I'm fighting for a lost cause... but, I'm a Patriot... so, I'll continue to fight.

If you're not one of those media "commentary" folks, you should be. Granted, I'm talking about the alternative media, but you have a knack with this. (no offense.

)

Byrnzie · December 2006

Cosmo wrote:

For me... Patriotism (like Faith) is personal. Waving a flag around to show other people how patriotic you are is not my gig. I don't need to show anyone my patriotism... I already know what it is.
Mine are the beliefs in the principles granted to us by our Constitutuion, not by wearing or waving a flag, repeating some creepy pledge or singing an unsingable anthem. And patriotism to me has nothing to do with going overseas to kill somebody with a gun... any more than i would equate personal happiness, liberty and freedom with the ability to purchase goods at always the lowest price, always. I believe in our foundation and the rights we possess... not our military might or our political leaders.
It's our Freedoms that people have died for... not our flag. I wish we could extend our rights and freedoms to the rest of the world... but, I don't believe we should do it at gunpoint. For me, I would rather us provide a shining example of how great and precious these freedoms are... lead by shining example and provide the model for others to want... instead of going half way around the globe and throwing hand grenades and money at them.
And as a Patriot... I am worried about my America. People here want to silence the Press... the fourth Branch of our Government... because they don't like what they are hearing. well, in places like North Korea and Iran, the press only broadcasts 'Good News'. I want no part of that.
I know America has faults and makes mistakes. but, as americans, shouldn't we OWN UP to those mistakes instead of making excuses for them? For me, Patriotism is about accepting your country for all it's good and all of its bad and trying to eliminate the bad. I know I'm fighting for a lost cause... but, I'm a Patriot... so, I'll continue to fight.

Well said.

Ahnimus · December 2006

Aha!

The opposite of a Patriot is... a sheep!

norm · December 2006

Cosmo wrote:

For me... Patriotism (like Faith) is personal. Waving a flag around to show other people how patriotic you are is not my gig. I don't need to show anyone my patriotism... I already know what it is.
Mine are the beliefs in the principles granted to us by our Constitutuion, not by wearing or waving a flag, repeating some creepy pledge or singing an unsingable anthem. And patriotism to me has nothing to do with going overseas to kill somebody with a gun... any more than i would equate personal happiness, liberty and freedom with the ability to purchase goods at always the lowest price, always. I believe in our foundation and the rights we possess... not our military might or our political leaders.
It's our Freedoms that people have died for... not our flag. I wish we could extend our rights and freedoms to the rest of the world... but, I don't believe we should do it at gunpoint. For me, I would rather us provide a shining example of how great and precious these freedoms are... lead by shining example and provide the model for others to want... instead of going half way around the globe and throwing hand grenades and money at them.
And as a Patriot... I am worried about my America. People here want to silence the Press... the fourth Branch of our Government... because they don't like what they are hearing. well, in places like North Korea and Iran, the press only broadcasts 'Good News'. I want no part of that.
I know America has faults and makes mistakes. but, as americans, shouldn't we OWN UP to those mistakes instead of making excuses for them? For me, Patriotism is about accepting your country for all it's good and all of its bad and trying to eliminate the bad. I know I'm fighting for a lost cause... but, I'm a Patriot... so, I'll continue to fight.

Damn Cosmo you're on a roll today. First the boomer thread response now this. Well done!:D

hippiemom · December 2006

Cosmo wrote:

For me... Patriotism (like Faith) is personal. Waving a flag around to show other people how patriotic you are is not my gig. I don't need to show anyone my patriotism... I already know what it is.
Mine are the beliefs in the principles granted to us by our Constitutuion, not by wearing or waving a flag, repeating some creepy pledge or singing an unsingable anthem. And patriotism to me has nothing to do with going overseas to kill somebody with a gun... any more than i would equate personal happiness, liberty and freedom with the ability to purchase goods at always the lowest price, always. I believe in our foundation and the rights we possess... not our military might or our political leaders.
It's our Freedoms that people have died for... not our flag. I wish we could extend our rights and freedoms to the rest of the world... but, I don't believe we should do it at gunpoint. For me, I would rather us provide a shining example of how great and precious these freedoms are... lead by shining example and provide the model for others to want... instead of going half way around the globe and throwing hand grenades and money at them.
And as a Patriot... I am worried about my America. People here want to silence the Press... the fourth Branch of our Government... because they don't like what they are hearing. well, in places like North Korea and Iran, the press only broadcasts 'Good News'. I want no part of that.
I know America has faults and makes mistakes. but, as americans, shouldn't we OWN UP to those mistakes instead of making excuses for them? For me, Patriotism is about accepting your country for all it's good and all of its bad and trying to eliminate the bad. I know I'm fighting for a lost cause... but, I'm a Patriot... so, I'll continue to fight.

Cosmo for president!

jlew24asu · December 2006

Byrnzie wrote:

I'd say that having travelled abroad often and spent time in other countries which I deemed to have a better way of life than Britain, has made me see things with a wider lense. A lot of Europeans now travel freely and regularly throughout Europe and see themselves as primarily European, and worldly, as opposed to French, Italian, or German e.t.c.
I imagine that Americans have more difficulty in travelling around so easily, mainly due to geographical and financial reasons. Being the wealthiest country in the America's I expect that it's only natural you see yourselves as being 'the best country in the world'. As i said above, America can conceivably be seen as possessing many countries within itself due to the variety and vastness of the place. Although ultimately all of these disparate places are still America.
I think it's an interesting subject, and to be honest I'm too tired now to think clearly about it. But I hope you get my drift?

I agree with alot of what you say about Europe vs Americans ability to travel freely to other places. but I dont see America "the best country in the world". ok well maybe I do. but by no means do I think we are above or better then anyone else.

Ahnimus · December 2006

jlew24asu wrote:

I agree with alot of what you say about Europe vs Americans ability to travel freely to other places. but I dont see America "the best country in the world". ok well maybe I do. but by no means do I think we are above or better then anyone else.

Save extenuating circumstances, I believe ever human to see their country as "the best country in the world.". Just as the rat perceives his maze as the world.

Gary Carter · December 2006

Cosmo wrote:

For me... Patriotism (like Faith) is personal. Waving a flag around to show other people how patriotic you are is not my gig. I don't need to show anyone my patriotism... I already know what it is.
Mine are the beliefs in the principles granted to us by our Constitutuion, not by wearing or waving a flag, repeating some creepy pledge or singing an unsingable anthem. And patriotism to me has nothing to do with going overseas to kill somebody with a gun... any more than i would equate personal happiness, liberty and freedom with the ability to purchase goods at always the lowest price, always. I believe in our foundation and the rights we possess... not our military might or our political leaders.
It's our Freedoms that people have died for... not our flag. I wish we could extend our rights and freedoms to the rest of the world... but, I don't believe we should do it at gunpoint. For me, I would rather us provide a shining example of how great and precious these freedoms are... lead by shining example and provide the model for others to want... instead of going half way around the globe and throwing hand grenades and money at them.
And as a Patriot... I am worried about my America. People here want to silence the Press... the fourth Branch of our Government... because they don't like what they are hearing. well, in places like North Korea and Iran, the press only broadcasts 'Good News'. I want no part of that.
I know America has faults and makes mistakes. but, as americans, shouldn't we OWN UP to those mistakes instead of making excuses for them? For me, Patriotism is about accepting your country for all it's good and all of its bad and trying to eliminate the bad. I know I'm fighting for a lost cause... but, I'm a Patriot... so, I'll continue to fight.

u sir are true patriot,COSMO FOR PREZ in 2012.ever notice how the word patriot has the word RIOT in it

hippiemom · December 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

Save extenuating circumstances, I believe ever human to see their country as "the best country in the world.". Just as the rat perceives his maze as the world.

My country is "the best in the world" only because the people I love are here. If I could afford to take them all with me, I can think of quite a few places I'd rather live. I don't have that kind of cash though, and I can't imagine life without them, so here I am

covin · December 2006

hippiemom wrote:

My country is "the best in the world" only because the people I love are here. If I could afford to take them all with me, I can think of quite a few places I'd rather live. I don't have that kind of cash though, and I can't imagine life without them, so here I am

But then your reasoning has nothing to do with nationality, and everything to do with circumstance. It doesn't make any sense to say that one's country is the "greatest" in the world because of local factors, like family, which, as you conveniently point out, are things which happen to be completely divorced from nationality.

With such logic, every nation must be the greatest in the world, because in every nation there is love, kindness, and friendship. But then, perhaps such an idea isn't a bad one.

angelica · December 2006

covin wrote:

With such logic, every nation must be the greatest in the world, because in every nation there is love, kindness, and friendship. But then, perhaps such an idea isn't a bad one.

Bravo!

(I'm not exactly understanding how hippiemom's post brought the angry face out of the old arsenal though...)

edit: ah, you edited out the angry face!

Abookamongstthemany · December 2006

Time for a quote break:

"We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had -- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it, all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism."
~Howard Zinn

"Conceit, arrogance and egotism are the essentials of patriotism.... Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all others."
~Emma Goldman

Ahnimus · December 2006

I'm sure you all know this one by now.

"In the begining of a change the patriot is a scarce man, feared, hated and scorned. But in time when his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world."
- Margaret Mead

angelica · December 2006

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Time for a quote break:

"We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had -- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it, all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism."
~Howard Zinn

"Conceit, arrogance and egotism are the essentials of patriotism.... Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all others."
~Emma Goldman

I love quotes! Thanks for sharing.

angelica · December 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

I'm sure you all know this one by now.

"In the begining of a change the patriot is a scarce man, feared, hated and scorned. But in time when his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world."
- Margaret Mead

Cool.

Abookamongstthemany · December 2006

angelica wrote:

I love quotes! Thanks for sharing.

Oh, anytime! I love em, too....obviously.

angelica · December 2006

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Oh, anytime! I love em, too....obviously.

Do you have a big stash of them somewhere? Or do you just know where to go to find them?

Patriotism

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