Patriotism

Byrnzie

What do people think of this concept?
What does it mean?

Personally, I couldn't give a fuck about this country. At least not more or less so than any other place in the world. I don't even know what the word country means. And a flag is as relevant to me as a turd on the side of the street.

Discuss...

angelica

Byrnzie wrote:

Personally, I couldn't give a fuck about this country. At least not more or less so than any other place in the world. I don't even know what the word country means. And a flag is as relevant to me as a turd on the side of the street.

I'm basically with you on this, although I'm not quite so colourful about it.

Riot_Rain

I am not a patriot. I am, however, beginning to appreciate my home country in different ways now that I've been gone for 4 years. Wouldn't say I miss it though

I must admit I'm beginning to feel quite European, what with the moving around freely and being able to work in different countries and meeting so many different people. But don't tell anyone I said that

I am ashamed of my country's past colonialism. At school we were told that the Dutch Empire was something to be proud of. I think I remember them saying it was great, because we got cinnamon and other spices out of it and other things like that. Tea, coffee, cotton, gold! I now feel it was the beginning of the unfair trade we've got now. But would the world have been a better place if we'd done it differently? I guess we'll never know.

Kann

For me patriotism is the feeling of being at home in your country. I traveled a bit and greatly appreciated it but I was always happy to come home.
Edit : I forgot to add that since it's your home you might as well try and keep it a clean, free and cool place (and that does not mean fucking up other people's places in order to achieve that).
Excessive patriotism can lead to nationalism though, and thats where things tend to get ugly.

miller8966

I love america. To me its the greatest country in the world with the greatest people. I fly my flag proudly in support of those who fight or who have fought before me to give me the freedoms i am lucky to be given.

Byrnzie

miller8966 wrote:

I love america. To me its the greatest country in the world with the greatest people. I fly my flag proudly in support of those who fight or who have fought before me to give me the freedoms i am lucky to be given.

To say that any country is the greatest country in the world is an utterly meaningless and ridiculous statement. I piss on the American flag and every other flag.
I believe that humans need to evolve above and beyond these silly little fantasies, and dangerous divisions, and embrace the good and creative aspects of all cultures.
I also never trust the word 'freedom' in the mouth of an American. I doubt that you have any idea what the word means beyond some sort of shallow and jingoistic intrepretation. Feel free to prove me wrong.

dunkman

I'm too patriotic for my own good these days... I love the history of my country, but in the same breath i can see a shitload wrong with it...

I love blinkered myopic people like Miller and HHelen who just say "my country is the greatest... blah blah blah" and they never post about the faults of their country.. and every country has faults, its recognising they are faults which matters, not the repeated shouts of "go america"... thats just being ignorant

dg1979us

There is nothing wrong with having pride in, or love for your country, as long as you keep that pride in perspective and realize that your country has its faults.

Collin

miller8966 wrote:

I love america. To me its the greatest country in the world with the greatest people. I fly my flag proudly in support of those who fight or who have fought before me to give me the freedoms i am lucky to be given.

I have asked you a couple of times but you never seem to answer, how many countries have you been to? Have you ever lived in an other country? Stayed there longer than two weeks?

Byrnzie

dunkman1974 wrote:

I'm too patriotic for my own good these days... I love the history of my country, but in the same breath i can see a shitload wrong with it...

I love blinkered myopic people like Miller and HHelen who just say "my country is the greatest... blah blah blah" and they never post about the faults of their country.. and every country has faults, its recognising they are faults which matters, not the repeated shouts of "go america"... thats just being ignorant

I think it would be pretty damn difficult to delineate the countours of a country from the ground. Therefore we are dealing with something which is pretty abstract. I believe that there's something wonderful in every part of the world and Scottish heritage should be celebrated alongside that of Papua New Guinea e.t.c.
I just think that in this crucial time in our history it's time for humanity to pool it's resources, both physical, intellectual and cultural, with a more imaginative and sustainable vision in mind that eclipses nationalism.

know1

I think Patriotism/Nationalism are bad concepts that I wish would go away.

Here's the thing, though: There are plenty of people who will say that they are against Patriotism, but will be the first ones to whine about the loss of jobs to another part of the world. I've got news for them - that's Patriotism. Unless it is their very own job, what does it matter if someone 100 miles away has it or someone thousands of miles away?

angelica

I think it's a problem when people see division and separation between countries, rather than seeing the people who live across the globe--we're all just people. Those invisible lines become very real for many as they use such imaginary boundaries to justify dehumanizing others. Such illusions allow us to place ourselves above others. Rah! Rah!

I'm COMPLETELY with you, Byrnzie, on bridging our differences and creating synthesis and unity on an inclusive level. This is already happening with vast communication via mediums such as the internet. It's an idea whose time has come--we're evolving in this manner whether we like it or not. The thing is we can go with it, aligned and potent, or we can fall by the wayside, clinging to outdated unadaptable mindsets.

dg1979us

Byrnzie wrote:

I think it would be pretty damn difficult to delineate the countours of a country from the ground. Therefore we are dealing with something which is pretty abstract. I believe that there's something wonderful in every part of the world and Scottish heritage should be celebrated alongside that of Papua New Guinea e.t.c.
I just think that in this crucial time in our history it's time for humanity to pool it's resources, both physical, intellectual and cultural, with a more imaginative and sustainable vision in mind that eclipses nationalism.

Patriotism and benefiting humanity as a whole do not have to be mutually exclusive. You can feel pride in your culture, and still do your part to help cultures that are different from yours, and the world in general.

angelica

dg1979us wrote:

Patriotism and benefiting humanity as a whole do not have to be mutually exclusive. You can feel pride in your culture, and still do your part to help cultures that are different from yours, and the world in general.

I agree. I think it is key to embrace our roots as we expand our horizons and grow "higher", seeking to branch out and understand and commune with others. The key though is to go beyond our roots, while having integrated our roots.

Collin

know1 wrote:

I think Patriotism/Nationalism are bad concepts that I wish would go away.

Here's the thing, though: There are plenty of people who will say that they are against Patriotism, but will be the first ones to whine about the loss of jobs to another part of the world. I've got news for them - that's Patriotism. Unless it is their very own job, what does it matter if someone 100 miles away has it or someone thousands of miles away?

Good point.

dg1979us

angelica wrote:

I agree. I think it is key to embrace our roots as we expand our horizons and grow "higher", seeking to branch out and understand and commune with others. The key though is to go beyond our roots, while having integrated our roots.

But again, its not mutually exclusive. You dont have to go "beyond your roots", to understand and appreciate the differences in other cultures and societies. In fact, Im going to argue the opposite. I think for the most part its great that people are prideful of their cultures and societies, because it makes the world a much more interesting place. Now obviously, I mean that in a responsible way. All societies have their faults and flaws, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with embracing the good parts of your culture and society.

Jeanwah

dunkman1974 wrote:

I love blinkered myopic people like Miller and HHelen who just say "my country is the greatest... blah blah blah" and they never post about the faults of their country.. and every country has faults, its recognising they are faults which matters, not the repeated shouts of "go america"... thats just being ignorant

How about questioning one's governmentt. I, for one, think that it's our duty to question the motives of every administration that gets elected in. People like Miller and HHelen don't seem to be very suspicious of possible scandalous activity and therefore, naive. But I'm not going to blindly judge you two. Tell me, do you even bother paying attention t the negatives of Bush or do you simply believe that whatever people say badly about his administration are just plain wrong? That's blind faith and closed-minded patriotism.

blackredyellow

miller8966 wrote:

I love america. To me its the greatest country in the world with the greatest people. I fly my flag proudly in support of those who fight or who have fought before me to give me the freedoms i am lucky to be given.

If you haven't been to many other countries, that is like moving to a new town, eating at only one resturaunt, and declaring it the best in town.

I like living in the US, and even with all it's faults, I am happy here. I am happy with the education I have received, and the opportunities that I have in my life. Our country like every other country has great people and assholes.

But according to dictionary.com, the defintion of patriotism is "devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty."

by that definition I guess I am not a patriot... the only thing that I have devoted love, support and loyalty to are my family and friends. If some evil country was going to invade us and take us over, I would fight for my country and freedoms... but that is about the only reason I would fight for it.

miller8966

Byrnzie wrote:

To say that any country is the greatest country in the world is an utterly meaningless and ridiculous statement. I piss on the American flag and every other flag.
I believe that humans need to evolve above and beyond these silly little fantasies, and dangerous divisions, and embrace the good and creative aspects of all cultures.
I also never trust the word 'freedom' in the mouth of an American. I doubt that you have any idea what the word means beyond some sort of shallow and jingoistic intrepretation. Feel free to prove me wrong.

I piss on socialism and socialist ideas. If i knew where karl marx was buried id piss on his grave too.

I never trust the word freedom in the mouth of a muslim.

Byrnzie

know1 wrote:

I think Patriotism/Nationalism are bad concepts that I wish would go away.

Here's the thing, though: There are plenty of people who will say that they are against Patriotism, but will be the first ones to whine about the loss of jobs to another part of the world. I've got news for them - that's Patriotism. Unless it is their very own job, what does it matter if someone 100 miles away has it or someone thousands of miles away?

You've surprised me. I was awaiting your response to this subject and I expected that you'd take the opposite view.
You're not as predictable as i imagined.

angelica

dg1979us wrote:

But again, its not mutually exclusive. You dont have to go "beyond your roots", to understand and appreciate the differences in other cultures and societies. In fact, Im going to argue the opposite. I think for the most part its great that people are prideful of their cultures and societies, because it makes the world a much more interesting place. Now obviously, I mean that in a responsible way. All societies have their faults and flaws, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with embracing the good parts of your culture and society.

If you mean what you say: "there is absolutely nothing wrong with embracing parts of your culture and society", then I agree with that. At the same time, when I see people using that argument to justify undermining of other countries, something unjustifiable is being justified.

I'm not sure why you'd argue against going beyond your roots. Maybe you could help me understand.

dg1979us

angelica wrote:

If you mean what you say: "there is absolutely nothing wrong with embracing parts of your culture and society", then I agree with that. At the same time, when I see people using that argument to justify undermining of other countries, something unjustifiable is being justified.

I'm not sure why you'd argue against going beyond your roots. Maybe you could help me understand.

But your equating patriotism as ignorance. They arent the same thing. Undermining other countries isnt a sign of patriotism, its a sign of ignorance, or at least arrogance. Now sure, the ignorance might be wrapped in patriotism, but that doesnt actually mean its patriotism. Patriotism is having pride in your own country. Patrioism is not undermining other countries, they are different concepts.

Collin

blackredyellow wrote:

If you haven't been to many other countries, that is like moving to a new town, eating at only one resturaunt, and declaring it the best in town.

My guess is he's never even been outside of the States, except for maybe Canada.

miller8966

Collin wrote:

My guess is he's never even been outside of the States, except for maybe Canada.

ive been to brazil.

What else would you like to know about the most important moving trainer on this board?

know1

Collin wrote:

My guess is he's never even been outside of the States, except for maybe Canada.

But who cares about that? If someone's been to 10 countries and another person only 2, is it really that big of a difference? There are a lot more countries than that in the world.

Furthermore, most countries are diverse within. If we dropped one person in an inner-city ghetto in America and another in Yellowstone Park and another in a small, rural town and another on Rodeo Drive for one week, would they all have the same experience of America?

Byrnzie

angelica wrote:

I agree. I think it is key to embrace our roots as we expand our horizons and grow "higher", seeking to branch out and understand and commune with others. The key though is to go beyond our roots, while having integrated our roots.

I agree. I believe that just as everyone should know about 3 languages, we should also be encouraged to travel abroad and spend time with other cultures. This should be a fundamental part of our education.
(And I put my hand up and admit that I'm guilty of knowing only one language. It's something i aim to fix however).

angelica

dg1979us wrote:

But your equating patriotism as ignorance. They arent the same thing. Undermining other countries isnt a sign of patriotism, its a sign of ignorance, or at least arrogance. Now sure, the ignorance might be wrapped in patriotism, but that doesnt actually mean its patriotism. Patriotism is having pride in your own country. Patrioism is not undermining other countries, they are different concepts.

How do you arrive at that I equate patriotism with ignorance?

Again, I wonder if you would indulge my curiosity about why would you argue against going beyond your roots?

Collin

miller8966 wrote:

ive been to brazil.

What else would you like to know about the most important moving trainer on this board?

So that's Brazial and Canada you've been to and yet you're overly patriotic or even nationalistic and keep going on and on about how the US is the greatest country in the world. And that's complete bullshit, you have no idea what it's like in other countries so how can you say yours is the greatest?

Byrnzie

know1 wrote:

But who cares about that? If someone's been to 10 countries and another person only 2, is it really that big of a difference? There are a lot more countries than that in the world.

Furthermore, most countries are diverse within. If we dropped one person in an inner-city ghetto in America and another in Yellowstone Park and another in a small, rural town and another on Rodeo Drive for one week, would they all have the same experience of America?

True. The beauty of America is that it is so vast. You can quite justifiably say that America has many different countries within it.

Collin

know1 wrote:

But who cares about that? If someone's been to 10 countries and another person only 2, is it really that big of a difference? There are a lot more countries than that in the world.

I don't really care how many countries someone has been to, but if they keep saying their country is the greatest in the world well than that's just ignorance.

Furthermore, most countries are diverse within. If we dropped one person in an inner-city ghetto in America and another in Yellowstone Park and another in a small, rural town and another on Rodeo Drive for one week, would they all have the same experience of America?

No, they would not, but that's not my point.

mammasan

know1 wrote:

I think Patriotism/Nationalism are bad concepts that I wish would go away.

I completely agree with.