Why Do Athiests

soulsinging · May 2007

deadnothingbetter wrote:

well, okay... i don't see how a hostile homosexual could ever make it anywhere in the world. i don't think this was mlk's message. his message was more about protesting peacefully. your doctrines would probably resemble Malcolm X doctrines a little better. but anyways...

the difference between an irish mafia and a mexican mafia is the irish mafia will say alot to scare you but the mexican mafia don't have to say much to scare you

oh by the way. your last comment you said about not reading the arguments because it's necessary and all, well actually i never did read them so i'm not really sure what's going on. haha would you figure that?

what doctrines am i advocating that are not peaceful? what am i advocating that is so reminiscent of malcolm x?

soulsinging · May 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

I'm an anti-theist. I attack religion. I also attack free-will.

Because I 'know' that these two percepts affect the way people view each other and interact and it makes for the vicious societies we live in.

People can disagree with me and I will recognize why they disagree with me. But I won't just shut up about it and I wouldn't expect anyone to shut up about their opinions either.

On the other hand, I would like rational debate instead of opinionated debate.

E.g. God and Free-will defy the laws of science and everything else we know. Regardless of what I believe, the truth is incontrovertible and exists independent of anyone's will. To have rational debate we really need to meet in the middle and try to look at it without ego and without opinions.

So let us assume that none of us have ever heard of God and ask the questions "What is God?" "Is it probable?" "What is the evidence for and against it?"

I feel the problem people are having here is not being able to ask these questions without becoming so emotionally involved that they block any objection to their 'opinions' and ignore evidence.

I honestly think that it's largely the die-hard Christians that attribute to the hostile atmosphere. Unfortunately God cannot be argued logically, so that wraps up the debate pretty quick. I've yet to hear a Christian tackle this topic rationally without emotional investment. Rational atheists are few and far between as well.

Let's discuss, but first let's set a proof that would suffice us all. Let us define what proof we are looking for. Does a description of a cat mean that the cat really exists? I would say no. So then we must find some other evidence for it, either by measuring it or consistently predicting the results. Believers seem to be set in irrational thought and unwilling to tackle the debate in this way, so ultimately it's a worthless topic. If anyone is looking for confirmation that atheism is right, then that's a different story.

i love this. utterly hilarious. "people need to come to this debate with no ego and an open mind." then you promptly add that there is no possible answer but the one you offer. only you can pull this off my friend.

soulsinging · May 2007

cornnifer wrote:

"poor wittle Christian feelings?!" Doctor King was, before anything else, a CHRISTIAN?! You may not want to accept that because it hurts your poor wittle "i hate Christians" feelings, and sticks a huge fork in your bullshit "Christians are all hateful, violent warmongers" bullshit philosophy, but it is undeniable truth. Maybe YOU should go back and read, or perhaps, re-read "letter from a birmingham jail" or countless other pieces. Christianity was at the forefront of his philosophy and teachings. One of ther greatest, most loving, peaceful men this country has ever known was very much a CHRISTIAN. Deal with it.

im well aware that he was a christian. im also well aware that when his fellow christians were sitting on their asses turning a blind eye to the horrific abuses their parishioners were perpetrating against their fellow men, he stood up and called them on it, shouting at them to step up to the plate and live like jesus did. he did not keep quiet about their hypocrisy and injustice for the sake of avoiding an argument that might annoy his fellow christians who didnt want their guilt and complicity thrown back in their faces. he was a TRUE christian. maybe you and deadnothing are too... which is why i challenge YOU to act like mlk and start shaking up your fellows out of their hatred and oppression.

Collin · May 2007

soulsinging wrote:

im well aware that he was a christian. im also well aware that when his fellow christians were sitting on their asses turning a blind eye to the horrific abuses their parishioners were perpetrating against their fellow men, he stood up and called them on it, shouting at them to step up to the plate and live like jesus did. he did not keep quiet about their hypocrisy and injustice for the sake of avoiding an argument that might annoy his fellow christians who didnt want their guilt and complicity thrown back in their faces. he was a TRUE christian. maybe you and deadnothing are too... which is why i challenge YOU to act like mlk and start shaking up your fellows out of their hatred and oppression.

Good point...

Maybe instead of bothering atheists it might be better for christians to confront each other with Christ's teachings.

Jeanie · May 2007

soulsinging wrote:

i love this. utterly hilarious. "people need to come to this debate with no ego and an open mind." then you promptly add that there is no possible answer but the one you offer. only you can pull this off my friend.

"only you can pull this off my friend"? or "only you are pulling yourself off my friend"?

just wondering aloud.

Cosmo · May 2007

I can only speak for myself... but, i don't need sympathy from some Human looking to satisfy his own selfish desire to save me. Don't pray for me... I don't need you call upon your god to save me... you're not doing me any good because you probably don't know a damn thing about me.
Now, if you need others to pray for you... fine. Just don't expect me to pretend I know what you are going through, because, truthfully... I haven't got a clue. And I know I cannot channel God to assist you. I will help you with what I can, as one human to another... but, i'm pretty sure my prayers won't do shit except make me feel better about myself. You will probably want to make amends with your god... yourself.
Don't get me wrong... I believe in Human kindness and caring... that comes from the human heart... but, don't pretend you are sending God to help me. If I'm in trouble... there a good chance that He probably already knows it.

Jeanie · May 2007

Cosmo wrote:

I can only speak for myself... but, i don't need sympathy from some Human looking to satisfy his own selfish desire to save me. Don't pray for me... I don't need you call upon your god to save me... you're not doing me any good because you probably don't know a damn thing about me.
Now, if you need others to pray for you... fine. Just don't expect me to pretend I know what you are going through, because, truthfully... I haven't got a clue. And I know I cannot channel God to assist you. I will help you with what I can, as one human to another... but, i'm pretty sure my prayers won't do shit except make me feel better about myself. You will probably want to make amends with your god... yourself.
Don't get me wrong... I believe in Human kindness and caring... that comes from the human heart... but, don't pretend you are sending God to help me. If I'm in trouble... there a good chance that He probably already knows it.

Hi Cosmo.

Just if you could answer a couple of quick question please?
Do you have friends or family who are religious? And if so, do you find that as you care for them you are more likely to understand and accept their prayers in times of difficulty because you know that is a way for them to feel that they are helping you?
I'm just wondering.

onelongsong · May 2007

Collin wrote:

Good point...

Maybe instead of bothering atheists it might be better for christians to confront each other with Christ's teachings.

this is the essense of the thread. i've never; EVER known anyone of religion to try to convert any atheist nor to preach to them. the exception being ahnimus when HE WENT INTO A BLOODY CHURCH which is where preaching is done. i've never seen a person of religion here; attack an atheist without first being invited into the conversation; ie: responding to a comment. the only exception being the mormans. i detest how they go house to house.

many true christians have left the church. one of my favourite steppenwolf songs is "from here to there eventually" and describes the church to a tee.

so the point of the thread is to point out how atheists come into threads about religion to "start trouble" to coin a phrase. i did not open the thread 10 REASONS AGAINST THEISM because i didn't agree with the subject matter. i don't open sports threads because i don't understand how someone can waste thier time when there's a whole world waiting to be discovered.

Cosmo · May 2007

Jeanie wrote:

Hi Cosmo.
Just if you could answer a couple of quick question please?
Do you have friends or family who are religious? And if so, do you find that as you care for them you are more likely to understand and accept their prayers in times of difficulty because you know that is a way for them to feel that they are helping you?
I'm just wondering.

...
Yes... I do. And I have a 'Born Again' brother that says he constantly 'prays for my soul'. And I tell him to save it for someone who really needs to be saved... like his own hypocritical ass.
The best way to help me... listen to me when I'm in pain, just as I listen to you... instead of telling you shouldn't have done or what you need to do or let you know I will summon my God to help you... when you are in pain. I know I can't fix you... all I can do is be there for you to help you fix yourself.
Sometimes... the best remedy for a downtrodden heart is an open ear and a shut mouth.

soulsinging · May 2007

onelongsong wrote:

this is the essense of the thread. i've never; EVER known anyone of religion to try to convert any atheist nor to preach to them. the exception being ahnimus when HE WENT INTO A BLOODY CHURCH which is where preaching is done. i've never seen a person of religion here; attack an atheist without first being invited into the conversation; ie: responding to a comment. the only exception being the mormans. i detest how they go house to house.

many true christians have left the church. one of my favourite steppenwolf songs is "from here to there eventually" and describes the church to a tee.

so the point of the thread is to point out how atheists come into threads about religion to "start trouble" to coin a phrase. i did not open the thread 10 REASONS AGAINST THEISM because i didn't agree with the subject matter. i don't open sports threads because i don't understand how someone can waste thier time when there's a whole world waiting to be discovered.

clearly you've never seen ohio state play football

that's why i stopped going to church... i found a new religion

onelongsong · May 2007

Cosmo wrote:

...
Yes... I do. And I have a 'Born Again' brother that says he constantly 'prays for my soul'. And I tell him to save it for someone who really needs to be saved... like his own hypocritical ass.
The best way to help me... listen to me when I'm in pain, just as I listen to you... instead of telling you shouldn't have done or what you need to do or let you know I will summon my God to help you... when you are in pain. I know I can't fix you... all I can do is be there for you to help you fix yourself.
Sometimes... the best remedy for a downtrodden heart is an open ear and a shut mouth.

i gave some water from lourdes shrine to an old man dying of cancer. the doctors gave him 2 weeks but he lived another 15 years and died cancer free.
i did the same with my mother and sister and they survived cancer. faith has cured more people because of mindset. why deny people of this? when someone feels helpless seeing a friend suffer; sometimes all they have is prayer to fill the void. born agains get on my nerves with thier "holier than thou" attitudes too. but if you're in pain; and i truely want to help you but there's nothing i can do about it; why deny me my only way to show how much you mean to me?

Ahnimus · May 2007

onelongsong wrote:

i gave some water from lourdes shrine to an old man dying of cancer. the doctors gave him 2 weeks but he lived another 15 years and died cancer free.
i did the same with my mother and sister and they survived cancer. faith has cured more people because of mindset. why deny people of this? when someone feels helpless seeing a friend suffer; sometimes all they have is prayer to fill the void. born agains get on my nerves with thier "holier than thou" attitudes too. but if you're in pain; and i truely want to help you but there's nothing i can do about it; why deny me my only way to show how much you mean to me?

That's circumstantial. Dozens of studies have shown that faith does buttkiss for hospital patients.

You can pray to a jug of milk and it will answer your prayers at the same success rate as God. Try it.

Jeanie · May 2007

Cosmo wrote:

...
Yes... I do. And I have a 'Born Again' brother that says he constantly 'prays for my soul'. And I tell him to save it for someone who really needs to be saved... like his own hypocritical ass.
The best way to help me... listen to me when I'm in pain, just as I listen to you... instead of telling you shouldn't have done or what you need to do or let you know I will summon my God to help you... when you are in pain. I know I can't fix you... all I can do is be there for you to help you fix yourself.
Sometimes... the best remedy for a downtrodden heart is an open ear and a shut mouth.

Well I would agree with the last statement!

Yes, I don't know that I'd want to play with too many "Born Agains". :eek:
I guess I have no problem with people holding religious beliefs and I don't even mind discussing them with some people. Depends on the person I suppose. I've got quite a few friends of different religions and we seem to negotiate our friendship without our core beliefs being too much of an issue.
I guess anybody being "fervent" upsets me. So that would apply to religious fervour as well as an Amway salesmen!!

Anybody that isn't being respectful of me or my beliefs.

Ahnimus · May 2007

Jeanie wrote:

Well I would agree with the last statement!

Yes, I don't know that I'd want to play with too many "Born Agains". :eek:
I guess I have no problem with people holding religious beliefs and I don't even mind discussing them with some people. Depends on the person I suppose. I've got quite a few friends of different religions and we seem to negotiate our friendship without our core beliefs being too much of an issue.
I guess anybody being "fervent" upsets me. So that would apply to religious fervour as well as an Amway salesmen!! Anybody that isn't being respectful of me or my beliefs.

I openly challenge my friends to challenge my beliefs. It's people that don't have solid beliefs that get upset over it. If you can't properly defend or explain why you believe what you do, then ask yourself if your beliefs are correct.

onelongsong · May 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

That's circumstantial. Dozens of studies have shown that faith does buttkiss for hospital patients.

You can pray to a jug of milk and it will answer your prayers at the same success rate as God. Try it.

why don't doctors agree with you? when a person gives up mentally; no medicine will help them. on the other hand; many people are given placebos in these studies and have symptoms relieved. they don't receive medicine; they heal themselves with thier mind.

onelongsong · May 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

I openly challenge my friends to challenge my beliefs. It's people that don't have solid beliefs that get upset over it. If you can't properly defend or explain why you believe what you do, then ask yourself if your beliefs are correct.

and that is where faith comes in. and respect for others beliefs.
if we did a poll here; nobody cares what you believe or why you believe it. look at the responses you get. you're basically preaching to yourself and TRYING TO CONVINCE YOURSELF that you are right.

Ahnimus · May 2007

onelongsong wrote:

why don't doctors agree with you? when a person gives up mentally; no medicine will help them. on the other hand; many people are given placebos in these studies and have symptoms relieved. they don't receive medicine; they heal themselves with thier mind.

Doctors do agree with me.

Doctors can give patients a placebo by telling them that they will be ok. But the placebo effect is a lot like no effect, it's not a very potent thing. Certainly not enough to warrant prayer, and you can reference one study that shows positive effects of prayer and I will show you 17 studies that show negative effects of prayer.

hippiemom · May 2007

onelongsong wrote:

why don't doctors agree with you? when a person gives up mentally; no medicine will help them. on the other hand; many people are given placebos in these studies and have symptoms relieved. they don't receive medicine; they heal themselves with thier mind.

It's certainly true that your mind can affect your body ... your OWN mind that is. I think what Ahnimus is referring to are studies that have shown, repeatedly, that the prayers of others don't do squat.

Jeanie · May 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

That's circumstantial. Dozens of studies have shown that faith does buttkiss for hospital patients.

You can pray to a jug of milk and it will answer your prayers at the same success rate as God. Try it.

Well frankly if I needed help and convential medicine couldn't supply it then I'd try whatever else that I felt might help. Particularly if it couldn't do any harm. And I'd have no problem with others doing the same.
I'm quite sure that if you are "cured" or are better able to maintain an illness or are "given another chance" after being written off by doctors because you did try alternatives and they worked, you'd hardly consider it circumstantial.
Studies are great, and if the "prove" overall that faith does "buttkiss" fine, but I'm sure the individual couldn't give a fat rats arse about studies if they do have success with alternate "treatments".

Ahnimus · May 2007

onelongsong wrote:

and that is where faith comes in. and respect for others beliefs.
if we did a poll here; nobody cares what you believe or why you believe it. look at the responses you get. you're basically preaching to yourself and TRYING TO CONVINCE YOURSELF that you are right.

Nobody cares what anyone else believes insofar as it doesn't affect them. But your beliefs to affect me and so I care.

Faith is the most irrational thing you can do. According to Jesus, Logos is the word. Logos translated from greek is Logic, Reason, Rationalization. Faith is in direct contradiction with Logos. The whole bible is in contradiction with it's self, and faith is required to blind yourself of rational thought. You become a robot, a servant of doctrine.

Why Do Athiests

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