Why Do Athiests

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

I openly challenge my friends to challenge my beliefs. It's people that don't have solid beliefs that get upset over it. If you can't properly defend or explain why you believe what you do, then ask yourself if your beliefs are correct.

That's great Ahnimus and clearly it gives you what you need.

I'm not having any problems interacting with friends or their beliefs but I'll be sure to keep your advice in mind should I need it.

Ahnimus

Jeanie wrote:

Well frankly if I needed help and convential medicine couldn't supply it then I'd try whatever else that I felt might help. Particularly if it couldn't do any harm. And I'd have no problem with others doing the same.
I'm quite sure that if you are "cured" or are better able to maintain an illness or are "given another chance" after being written off by doctors because you did try alternatives and they worked, you'd hardly consider it circumstantial.
Studies are great, and if the "prove" overall that faith does "buttkiss" fine, but I'm sure the individual couldn't give a fat rats arse about studies if they do have success with alternate "treatments".

Right, because they are self-focused and ignore objective reality.

If I give you some regular water and say "by the light of God let ye be healed" then 3 months later you are ok, who the fuck knows that the water healed you? If you die anyway, then you won't know the difference and I can just say "It wasn't in God's will". All of this bullshit is designed to convince you that it's God's will when it has nothing to do with it. It's just that you don't see the trickery.

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

Doctors do agree with me.

Doctors can give patients a placebo by telling them that they will be ok. But the placebo effect is a lot like no effect, it's not a very potent thing. Certainly not enough to warrant prayer, and you can reference one study that shows positive effects of prayer and I will show you 17 studies that show negative effects of prayer.

I realize this is a difficult concept for you to grasp, because you don't believe we are all unique. Clearly you have all the evidence you need to support your theories and that's great. Prayer or your mind will not be healing you any time soon should you need it to. Although you wouldn't ask it to so its a moot point. But other people have had success because they don't "believe" fervently in the studies as you do and because they are individuals that know themselves well and utilize whatever tool that they believe will help them. In other words they have decided what works for them. How this impacts you I don't really understand.

norm

Ahnimus wrote:

That's circumstantial. Dozens of studies have shown that faith does buttkiss for hospital patients.

You can pray to a jug of milk and it will answer your prayers at the same success rate as God. Try it.

buttkiss?!?!?!


hehehehehehe:D:D

Ahnimus

Jeanie wrote:

I realize this is a difficult concept for you to grasp, because you don't believe we are all unique. Clearly you have all the evidence you need to support your theories and that's great. Prayer or your mind will not be healing you any time soon should you need it to. Although you wouldn't ask it to so its a moot point. But other people have had success because they don't "believe" fervently in the studies as you do and because they are individuals that know themselves well and utilize whatever tool that they believe will help them. In other words they have decided what works for them. How this impacts you I don't really understand.

Those other people are fooling themselves.

I really don't care what you experience. Aliens, Loch Ness Monster, OBE, NDE, Bigfoot/Sasquatch, etc.. it's all subjective claims, it's crapola, means nothing, it's pointless to bring these claims to a debate because you can't prove them.

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

...... You become a robot, a servant of doctrine.

Am I the only person that finds this statement ironic coming from you?

Ahnimus

Jeanie wrote:

Am I the only person that finds this statement ironic coming from you?

btw Jeanie, I have a theory that supports evidence, not the other way around.

It's not ironic, I am a robot, but I'm not blindly following the doctrine of some ancient sun worshippers. I'm a free-thinker, I take in knowledge, perform rational deliberations on it and output ideas.

For example, I can say "Well there are 1500 species that have homosexuality in it and decent theories as to why that might be." why should I deny that or think like "Homosexuality is a choice, it's a sin, burn all the fags."

Jeanie

hippiemom wrote:

It's certainly true that your mind can affect your body ... your OWN mind that is. I think what Ahnimus is referring to are studies that have shown, repeatedly, that the prayers of others don't do squat.

Hi mom.

When people are ill and having treatment, more than just the person suffering the illness are affected. And in a lot of cases those around the sick person are useless in all reality. If they could feel useful or be comforted by praying for the sick person, is this really such a bad thing?
I mean, people going on huge drinking benders and doing everything in their power to hide their heads in the sand when I get sick, are clearly of no use to me, but I can understand why they do it. Just as I can understand why people need to pray.

Ahnimus

Jeanie wrote:

Hi mom.

When people are ill and having treatment, more than just the person suffering the illness are affected. And in a lot of cases those around the sick person are useless in all reality. If they could feel useful or be comforted by praying for the sick person, is this really such a bad thing?
I mean, people going on huge drinking benders and doing everything in their power to hide their heads in the sand when I get sick, are clearly of no use to me, but I can understand why they do it. Just as I can understand why people need to pray.

Well if you buy the results of 17 such studies, it actually has adverse affects on the patient. But again these aren't extreme effects. Simply telling someone that you will pray for them, statistically causes slightly more difficulty, but either way it's nothing to get excited about.

onelongsong

hippiemom wrote:

It's certainly true that your mind can affect your body ... your OWN mind that is. I think what Ahnimus is referring to are studies that have shown, repeatedly, that the prayers of others don't do squat.

the problems with studies is the controls. they don't leave room for the unexplained. i can also set my controls to get the result i'm looking for. every day i see a commercial for some attorney with a class action lawsuit looking for people that were given medications and died or were seriously injured by a medication. thier STUDIES and testing showed no harmful effects. the studies were obviously slanted.
i have a client that ate only my buffalo meat (in place of other meats) for 10 months now. he's cured of lung cancer and i can write that study several ways. i can write it so it looks like it was the buffalo meat. i can also write it to show it was the change in diet. it could also be the clean air of the mountains (he moved here from CA).

get the idea?

Ahnimus

onelongsong wrote:

the problems with studies is the controls. they don't leave room for the unexplained. i can also set my controls to get the result i'm looking for. every day i see a commercial for some attorney with a class action lawsuit looking for people that were given medications and died or were seriously injured by a medication. thier STUDIES and testing showed no harmful effects. the studies were obviously slanted.
i have a client that ate only my buffalo meat (in place of other meats) for 10 months now. he's cured of lung cancer and i can write that study several ways. i can write it so it looks like it was the buffalo meat. i can also write it to show it was the change in diet. it could also be the clean air of the mountains (he moved here from CA).

get the idea?

Exactly and YOUR study of giving some blessed water is slanted just as much as anyone's study.

Edit: But that's why you get a handful of studies (Like 17) and compare them against each other.

onelongsong

Ahnimus wrote:

Well if you buy the results of 17 such studies, it actually has adverse affects on the patient. But again these aren't extreme effects. Simply telling someone that you will pray for them, statistically causes slightly more difficulty, but either way it's nothing to get excited about.

in the normal world; saying you'll pray for someone; is telling them you love them. it is the combined love that helps the sick. you seem to fight harder for life when you're loved by a lot of people.

Lizard

know1 wrote:

Yes.

See, that is the problem. I consider myself a Christian but that there is such a turn off. Such arrogance.

to the original question...I too had noticed that.

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

Right, because they are self-focused and ignore objective reality.

But you don't right? There's nothing self focused about you at all?
And you don't ignore that objective reality that a lot of people do not hold your views?

Ahnimus wrote:

If I give you some regular water and say "by the light of God let ye be healed" then 3 months later you are ok, who the fuck knows that the water healed you? If you die anyway, then you won't know the difference and I can just say "It wasn't in God's will". All of this bullshit is designed to convince you that it's God's will when it has nothing to do with it. It's just that you don't see the trickery.

If you gave me anything I would be instantly suspicious because I doubt your intentions. So there's not really anything that I could see myself accepting from you should I become terminally ill.

Just as I WILL CHOOSE MY PATH through life and death. And I respect that others also have this CHOICE.

Cosmo

onelongsong wrote:

i gave some water from lourdes shrine to an old man dying of cancer. the doctors gave him 2 weeks but he lived another 15 years and died cancer free.
i did the same with my mother and sister and they survived cancer. faith has cured more people because of mindset. why deny people of this? when someone feels helpless seeing a friend suffer; sometimes all they have is prayer to fill the void. born agains get on my nerves with thier "holier than thou" attitudes too. but if you're in pain; and i truely want to help you but there's nothing i can do about it; why deny me my only way to show how much you mean to me?

...
Okay... don't take this the wrong way, but... I gotta call 'Bullshit' on this one. If it were true... it would truely qualify as a miracle... and at LEAST, be newsworthy. There would be SOME written record available for public... if not, you are letting millions of people worldwide, die from cancer. It the cure for cancer is in the water from Lourdes... then, cancer victims need it.
I do voluenteer work with both the Avon Walk (Los Angeles/Beaches) and the Susan G. Komen Foundation and there are thousands of mothers, daughters, sisters, aunts, nieces, cousins, friends and co-workers that suffer from and die from Breast Cancer in America alone. And I'm sure that 99.99999% of them get prayers from 99.9999999% of their friends and families... yet, they die. if ONE on them survived from prayer alone... not the chemo and mastectomies and other medical treatments... we would have heard from her.
Sorry.

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

Those other people are fooling themselves..

Gee, how simple. So we should all just take your word as law because well everybody knows what a superior intellect you. **sigh** Well I don't know about everyone else, but I feel SOOO much better knowing you are here to be our moral and mental compass.

Ahnimus wrote:

I really don't care what you experience. Aliens, Loch Ness Monster, OBE, NDE, Bigfoot/Sasquatch, etc.. it's all subjective claims, it's crapola, means nothing, it's pointless to bring these claims to a debate because you can't prove them.

So I should take the rantings of an egotistical, frustrated poster over ALL the other posts from a variety of viewpoints?

Hmmm..............how silly of me not to see the light?

Sorry your Magnificence, I didn't realize who I was dealing with.
Forgive my ignorance.

Cosmo

Jeanie wrote:

Well I would agree with the last statement!

Yes, I don't know that I'd want to play with too many "Born Agains". :eek:
I guess I have no problem with people holding religious beliefs and I don't even mind discussing them with some people. Depends on the person I suppose. I've got quite a few friends of different religions and we seem to negotiate our friendship without our core beliefs being too much of an issue.
I guess anybody being "fervent" upsets me. So that would apply to religious fervour as well as an Amway salesmen!! Anybody that isn't being respectful of me or my beliefs.

...
Well, you know... I'm pretty much a live and let live kinda guy. If someone believes in whatever faith... i say, "Great!". It works for you and you're happy... I'm happy. i don't expect anyone to adhere to my beliefs because I know that my beliefs are both... mine... and belief. It isn't the truth, so it does not apply to anyone else. And in the same manner... your faith is yours... not mine. And it is faith, not truth. Therefore, your faith does not necessarily apply to me. But, it works for you and I am glad it does.
I hope we all find the path to lead us to what we seek. The journey is our own... and who knows... maybe they all lead to the same destination. None of us will know until we get there. So, have a peaceful journey... that's what i say.

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

btw Jeanie, I have a theory that supports evidence, not the other way around.

It's not ironic, I am a robot, but I'm not blindly following the doctrine of some ancient sun worshippers. I'm a free-thinker, I take in knowledge, perform rational deliberations on it and output ideas.

For example, I can say "Well there are 1500 species that have homosexuality in it and decent theories as to why that might be." why should I deny that or think like "Homosexuality is a choice, it's a sin, burn all the fags."

Well actually that's debatable. You have a theory that is based on the evidence you have found to support your theory.

Actually Ryan, you are not a robot, you are a human being.
Robots are electronic beings made by humans. They do not breathe, they do not think, they do not feel. They do exactly what they are programmed to do.
You take in the knowledge that you are slanted to take in and you filter it through your personal experience and you rationalize your deliberations just like everybody else. It's a very HUMAN thing to do. A robot would not have these rationalizations.

How did homosexuality come into this?
I'm still trying to work out why you think prayer and meditation are the same thing.

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

Well if you buy the results of 17 such studies, it actually has adverse affects on the patient. But again these aren't extreme effects. Simply telling someone that you will pray for them, statistically causes slightly more difficulty, but either way it's nothing to get excited about.

Depends on the study doesn't it Ahnimus? As I've mentioned before, it's well worth knowing who did the study and any bias they may have before we accept the results as gospel, so to speak.

Frankly when you are ill, you don't really care so much what the people around you are doing in their inner world. You really don't have the energy to be "policing" the thoughts of those around you. You have your own to deal with. I'm quite sure that should you become seriously ill that the people around you know your views on prayer and religion and they won't be telling you that they will pray for you. But how they cope with the emotional fall out of your illness really is up to them. And I can't see you having the energy or the inclination to be debating with them about what you deem is the appropriate way for them to cope.

onelongsong

Cosmo wrote:

...
Okay... don't take this the wrong way, but... I gotta call 'Bullshit' on this one. If it were true... it would truely qualify as a miracle... and at LEAST, be newsworthy. There would be SOME written record available for public... if not, you are letting millions of people worldwide, die from cancer. It the cure for cancer is in the water from Lourdes... then, cancer victims need it.
I do voluenteer work with both the Avon Walk (Los Angeles/Beaches) and the Susan G. Komen Foundation and there are thousands of mothers, daughters, sisters, aunts, nieces, cousins, friends and co-workers that suffer from and die from Breast Cancer in America alone. And I'm sure that 99.99999% of them get prayers from 99.9999999% of their friends and families... yet, they die. if ONE on them survived from prayer alone... not the chemo and mastectomies and other medical treatments... we would have heard from her.
Sorry.

similar cases were discussed in the american medical journal. i believe december 2005. doctors are prescribing patients to eat buffalo meat all over the country. researchers are trying to isolate the compound that destroys the cancer. thanks to the chemical companies; you cannot claim a cure until you can precisely measure dosage. that's the law. so until the compound is isolated; and an exact dosage can be established; millions will die from cancer. this is why natural products cannot be advertised and medicines.

here's a breast cancer study you may be interested in. sorry to those who've already seen it.

CLA (conjugated linoleic acid) is a cancer-fighting fat that is most abundant in grassfed products. Two new European studies link a diet high in CLA with a lower risk of breast cancer. In Finland, researchers measured CLA levels in the serum of women with and without breast cancer. Those women with the most CLA had a significantly lower risk of the disease. Meanwhile, French researchers measured CLA levels in the breast tissues of 360 women. Once again, the women with the most CLA had the lowest risk of cancer. In fact, the women with the most CLA had a staggering 74% lower risk of breast cancer than the women with the least CLA.
The most natural and effective way to increase your intake of CLA is to eat the meat and dairy products of grassfed animals.
A. Aro et al, Kuopio University, Finland; Bougnoux, P, Lavillonniere F, Riboli E. "Inverse relation between CLA in adipose breast tissue and risk of breast cancer. A case-control study in France." Inform 10;5:S43, 1999