God vs Logic

JohnBriggs · August 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

I don't consider logic a personal opinion. It's something that we all have, some choose to ignore it. In computer networking we have what we call a logical network and a physical network. The physical network is the way in which the various devices are physically connected and that can be known simply by looking at the network. A logical network is the way the devices behave with each other through the configuration. It may appear one way physically but behave a completely different way logically. No amount of personal opinon can change either the physical or logical processes of the network.

Reality works the same way. Physically we are all products of our ancestors which includes our parents, grandparents etc.. that can be observed by our names and relatives which we openly associate ourselves with. Logically speaking [evolution] we are all decendants of the amoeba or a similar single-celled organism and that can be determined by looking at our configurations (DNA).

God, exists in neither physical or logical realities. Until someone can provide reasoning to support the logical claim of god's existance, and logic that stands up to scrutiny as well as DNA. Physical evidence should be produced to prove god's existance in the physical reality, as irrefutable as our own existances.

You will also have to conform to your own definition of logic and provide reasoning to support the claim of logical thinking. Let em remind you I am very open minded and I do not abide by or live by terms of God but I am not close minded to in the extent that I cannot accept it as a possibility and use what some like to call logic as a way to dismiss it either. I hope you get what I am explaining here. If not then your logic would prove to fail you.

Ahnimus · August 2006

PJAmerica wrote:

You will also have to conform to your own definition of logic and provide reasoning to support the claim of logical thinking. Let em remind you I am very open minded and I do not abide by or live by terms of God but I am not close minded to in the extent that I cannot accept it as a possibility and use what some like to call logic as a way to dismiss it either. I hope you get what I am explaining here. If not then your logic would prove to fail you.

I understand you, I think we are on the same page. But logically speaking, if there is absolutely noothing to support something's existance, then logically it doesn't exist. It may still exist and we may uncover some truth. But until that is apparent pigs can't fly.

JohnBriggs · August 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

I understand you, I think we are on the same page. But logically speaking, if there is absolutely noothing to support something's existance, then logically it doesn't exist. It may still exist and we may uncover some truth. But until that is apparent pigs can't fly.

Logic is a basis of thought or argument and a state of thought in reality but then we could debate reality as well. IN essence the idea behind logic is more theory of thought without resounding fact to what it defines..

Logic (from ancient Greek λόγος (logos), originally meaning the word, or what is spoken, but coming to mean thought or reason) is most often said to be the study of arguments, although the exact definition of logic is a matter of controversy amongst philosophers. However the subject is grounded, the task of the logician is the same: to advance an account of valid and fallacious inference to allow one to distinguish good from bad arguments.

69charger · August 2006

Abuskedti wrote:

ok I am going to switch sides.

People don't claim to understand God. they obey his orders as presented in the Bible.

God's power is love

God is not perfect... only in comparison to us.. but perfection is not something God brags about nor does he spend much time at all talking about himself..

He is our creator - and has some rules he'd like us to follow.

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from postings such as this one, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual cleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Abuskedti · August 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

That was before we knew about the dinosaurs and before we knew the world was flat. It was actually right after humankind chose to worship multiple gods. We had gods for everything and we very strongly believed it as real.

I don't think that the educated thinkers of the time were so sure they were real - if they were - they wouldn't have written so much that allows them to be real - and yet do absolutely nothing.

The bible is the wisdom of the years packaged to sell.

You bring up some good points - and it is a tougher and tougher sell as time passes.

Faith is a personal thing. You don't have to believe every word of the bible to be fact in order to have faith. You don't even have to read the bible. God can be a handy guy to have around to talk to. And comforting to know he has the power to help and to protect and give you eternal life.

Cosmo · August 2006

Here is a logical explanation about belief in God that was presented to me by a Born Again Christian... a good friend who really, really wants to save me (from something I don't need saving from):
--God either exists, or He does not exist.
--You either believe in God, or you do no believe in Him.
If you DO NOT Believe in God and God DOES exist...
then you are in big trouble and go to Hell. Score, -1
If you DO NOT Believe in God and God DOES NOT exist...
then you are right... big deal. It's a wash, score +0
Total points = -1
OR
If you DO Believe in God and God Does exist...
then you are right and are rewarded with Heaven. Score, +1
If you DO Believe in God and God DOES NOT exist...
but, maybe the belief in God has helped you through some tough times. Score, +1/2
Total points = +1 1/2
-1 is less than +1.5...
Therefore it is better, logically, to believe in God.
...
He couldn't answer my response that using that logic, your belief in God is a 'Just in case' or 'Covering your ass' reason to believe... and God, all seeing and all knowing, would know this was your reason. Would He be okay with this? And what kind of half-ass God would He be if He did?

Abookamongstthemany · August 2006

Cosmo wrote:

Here is a logical explanation about belief in God that was presented to me by a Born Again Christian... a good friend who really, really wants to save me (from something I don't need saving from):
--God either exists, or He does not exist.
--You either believe in God, or you do no believe in Him.
If you DO NOT Believe in God and God DOES exist...
then you are in big trouble and go to Hell. Score, -1
If you DO NOT Believe in God and God DOES NOT exist...
then you are right... big deal. It's a wash, score +0
Total points = -1
OR
If you DO Believe in God and God Does exist...
then you are right and are rewarded with Heaven. Score, +1
If you DO Believe in God and God DOES NOT exist...
but, maybe the belief in God has helped you through some tough times. Score, +1/2
Total points = +1 1/2
-1 is less than +1.5...
Therefore it is better, logically, to believe in God.
...
He couldn't answer my response that using that logic, your belief in God is a 'Just in case' or 'Covering your ass' reason to believe... and God, all seeing and all knowing, would know this was your reason. Would He be okay with this? And what kind of half-ass God would He be if He did?

I've asked that same question so many times and have never gotten a clear response.

Cosmo · August 2006

know1 wrote:

The problem with your logic is that its boundaries are our extremely limited human knowledge and therefore can only understand things in those terms.

I'm sure that cats or dogs try to understand the logic of humans and can't quite get it either.

...
I don't think my cats try to figure anything out... other than how to get the cat nip out of that plastic container.
I also don't think they know they are going to die and worry about behaving a certain way in order to get to cat heaven. They may understand death as it comes to them... which explains why they want to be in your arms when they die... but, i just don't think they believe in anything other than thing that exist in their physical Universe.
And cats and dogs react to us... they only know that they will get beat is they crap on our pillows but, I don't think they worry about us condemning them to an eternity of torment in some metaphysical realm of being.

FinsburyParkCarrots · August 2006

One word: Anselm.

FinsburyParkCarrots · August 2006

Okay, here you go:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/anselm/

Cosmo · August 2006

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I've asked that same question so many times and have never gotten a clear response.

...
He's a good friend and I love him... except for the, I'm damned and am going to Hell part. I think he got this logic thing from his preacher or whatever because he knows I write computer programs and shell scripts and operates along logical lines. I think he thought it would pin me into believeing.
And... he has told me that I am Christian... but, just don't know it. He doesn't think that someone that questions religion or God or is an atheist can be caring and kind and giving... like i can sometimes be accused of. He tells me it's the light of Jesus in me that does these things and refuses to listen to my response of, 'Because that's what humans are supposed to be'. I'm never blaming Jesus for anything i do or don't do... it's all on me... good, bad or indifferent.

Ahnimus · August 2006

Cosmo wrote:

Here is a logical explanation about belief in God that was presented to me by a Born Again Christian... a good friend who really, really wants to save me (from something I don't need saving from):
--God either exists, or He does not exist.
--You either believe in God, or you do no believe in Him.
If you DO NOT Believe in God and God DOES exist...
then you are in big trouble and go to Hell. Score, -1
If you DO NOT Believe in God and God DOES NOT exist...
then you are right... big deal. It's a wash, score +0
Total points = -1
OR
If you DO Believe in God and God Does exist...
then you are right and are rewarded with Heaven. Score, +1
If you DO Believe in God and God DOES NOT exist...
but, maybe the belief in God has helped you through some tough times. Score, +1/2
Total points = +1 1/2
-1 is less than +1.5...
Therefore it is better, logically, to believe in God.
...
He couldn't answer my response that using that logic, your belief in God is a 'Just in case' or 'Covering your ass' reason to believe... and God, all seeing and all knowing, would know this was your reason. Would He be okay with this? And what kind of half-ass God would He be if He did?

That sounds like one of satans tricks.

Ahnimus · August 2006

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

Okay, here you go:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/anselm/

I'm not sure what this Anselm guy is getting at, maybe you can break it down. I was kind of turned off in the first few lines when he redefines "understanding" as "philosophical belief"

Abookamongstthemany · August 2006

Cosmo wrote:

...
He's a good friend and I love him... except for the, I'm damned and am going to Hell part. I think he got this logic thing from his preacher or whatever because he knows I write computer programs and shell scripts and operates along logical lines. I think he thought it would pin me into believeing.
And... he has told me that I am Christian... but, just don't know it. He doesn't think that someone that questions religion or God or is an atheist can be caring and kind and giving... like i can sometimes be accused of. He tells me it's the light of Jesus in me that does these things and refuses to listen to my response of, 'Because that's what humans are supposed to be'. I'm never blaming Jesus for anything i do or don't do... it's all on me... good, bad or indifferent.

My best friend is just like that and say a lot of stuff along the lines of your friend. But she has always followed her heart and her senses when it comes to living her life...in other words, she sins and sins quite often. I think that most believers still know inside logically that it doesn't make sense to live life according to set of rules given to us by an almighty god who wants to punish us for using these wonderful senses he has given us. That's to me is why so much sin is commited. One doesn't give enough credit to the wisdom they hold within their own body. They follow it but then treat it as a mistake, even when there is nothing to be sorry for. I only hate the self loathing, constant guilt and need to get down on ones knees, they weigh themselves down with for simply living ones life.

dg1979us · August 2006

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

My best friend is just like that and say a lot of stuff along the lines of your friend. But she has always followed her heart and her senses when it comes to living her life...in other words, she sins and sins quite often. I think that most believers still know inside logically that it doesn't make sense to live life according to set of rules given to us by an almighty god who wants to punish us for using these wonderful senses he has given us. That's to me is why so much sin is commited. One doesn't give enough credit to the wisdom they hold within their own body. They follow it but then treat it as a mistake, even when there is nothing to be sorry for. I only hate the self loathing, constant guilt and need to get down on ones knees, they weigh themselves down with for simply living ones life.

Im not really religious, and I am obviously not referring to your friend here since I dont know her. But, to argue against your constant guilt argument for a minute. I think if you speak to a lot of religious people (not all obviously) they also find comfort in knowing that there mistakes and sins can be forgiven and their religion more or less lets them know that they arent perfect and sins or mistakes in life will be made. So, obviously it is a person by person feeling on whether there religion makes them feel guilty, or comforted in a sense.

And to the original point of the thread. Just because you cant prove something doesnt exist, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. We are discovering things about humanity, the earth, the universe etc on a daily basis, and will be doing that through human existence. And I would venture to guess that we will never discover everything there is to know, and somethings that we havent proven exist, probably do exist. If there is a God, whats to say it is something that is just beyond human capabilty to actually prove? Now, I will say, I have a problem with organized religion, which goes back to your point. I do find it difficult to have that kind of faith in something based on books written by humans, since they had even less knowledge of the world back then than we do now, if that makes sense.

WMA · August 2006

Cosmo wrote:

[...]
He doesn't think that someone that questions religion or God or is an atheist can be caring and kind and giving.
[...]

I hate that.

It is a pretty common characterization in the media etc. Like people who don't believe in god are all evil by default.

I worry more about people who have to be told what is right and wrong then those who use common sense to figure it out.

brain of c · August 2006

they have a fight, logic wins.

Abookamongstthemany · August 2006

dg1979us wrote:

Im not really religious, and I am obviously not referring to your friend here since I dont know her. But, to argue against your constant guilt argument for a minute. I think if you speak to a lot of religious people (not all obviously) they also find comfort in knowing that there mistakes and sins can be forgiven and their religion more or less lets them know that they arent perfect and sins or mistakes in life will be made. So, obviously it is a person by person feeling on whether there religion makes them feel guilty, or comforted in a sense.

But doesn't doing the same kind of sinning over and over again and then just asking for forgiveness seem a little insincere? You aren't sorry if you keep doing it. You're only sorry that what you wish to do is against god's wishes not that you believe it is truly wrong. Conscience usually guides people against stuff that is wrong with or without god in their life. Wouldn't god see right through this act? And why have the rules if you know they are going to be broken and forgiven and that we can't possibly follow them all because of our imperfections? Aren't people just going to do what they want to anyway? It seems more like a basis for laws and a justication for punishment here on earth, to me.

cornnifer · August 2006

Abuskedti wrote:

Cats and Dogs don't likely preach to each other about what Humans expect of them and why.

i'm guessing they also don't pop off at the fucking mouth on a message board pretending to be deep thinkers when they really don't know shit.
Man this shit is old. Some of you people really need a new shtick. This one is tired and you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Just flapping your metaphorical lips.

dg1979us · August 2006

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

But doesn't doing the same kind of sinning over and over again and then just asking for forgiveness seem a little insincere? You aren't sorry if you keep doing it. You're only sorry that what you wish to do is against god's wishes not that you believe it is truly wrong. Conscience usually guides people against stuff that is wrong with or without god in their life. Wouldn't god see right through this act? And why have the rules if you know they are going to be broken and forgiven and that we can't possibly follow them all because of our imperfections? Aren't people just going to do what they want to anyway? It seems more like a basis for laws and a justication for punishment here on earth, to me.

Well that is tough to argue against, and it is kind of difficult for me to do so since I am not really religious, so its hard for me to argue that side. But, the Bible, and probably most religions, teach you that you arent perfect, and you are going to sin and make mistakes. I dont think it necessarily makes it insincere, but more that you recognize your weakness and imperfections. Now, again, it is more of a personal thing. Lots of people who claim to be religious are merely giving lipservice to it, and for those people then I think you can make the claim it is insincere. But the people who really do try to live a "righteous" life I think it is more of a recognizing your faults or mistakes and trying to make them better and using your faith to help better yourself. Just my take on it, but I do think its different to different people.

God vs Logic

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