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***The Official Philadelphia Phillies 2012 Thread***

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    The FixerThe Fixer Posts: 12,837
    JK_Livin wrote:
    The Fixer wrote:
    Now the Phillies' decision about Hamels has been clearly framed for them by the Cain contract. The market value has been defined.

    Cain's deal has zero effect on Hamels. Cain doesn't shop in Hamels' market. Hamels' value is clearly higher than Cain's. Even if the both went into FA, Hamels was going to get more per year. He's better and we all new this before Cain's deal.

    If you take away W-L record it's pretty close. And anyone who uses W-L record as a criteria is an idiot.

    cain is actually younger than hamels. and one could argue more durable.

    hamels avg WAR per year - 3.75
    cain avg WAR per year - 3.57

    I think hamels is better, but cain is no slouch. they're both really, really good pitchers.

    why do you think hamels is 'clearly better'?
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    The FixerThe Fixer Posts: 12,837
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    "dormant in recent weeks?" i don't buy that.

    salisbury said a deal was close as recently as 5 days ago. hamels hinted that they needed to wait until after the season starts so it won't affect the luxury tax this year or something. i guess the cain deal may have thrown a wrench in the plans a bit though...still think a deal gets done. both sides sound like they want it.

    I don't think it was(is) as close as you think it was. Rosenthal said right after the Salisbury article that they hadn't spoken in weeks.

    wishful thinking maybe, clifford? lil bit? ;)

    most people would agree that salisbury isn't a puppet for the phils though. matty gelb said they were getting close this past weekend too. i don't think anybody knows for sure. but cain signing this soon sucks.


    did you seet this? http://www.thegoodphight.com/2012/4/3/2 ... -mattingly

    harball talk linked to it too. good read. i despise the yankees but was a big donnie baseball fan growing up (the yankees were more tolerable when they were losing ). pretty good comparison

    salisbury has no sources outside of the organization. he's the definition of a puppet. I'll believe olney and rosenthal over gleb/salisbury every single time
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    The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,562
    The Fixer wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    I don't think it was(is) as close as you think it was. Rosenthal said right after the Salisbury article that they hadn't spoken in weeks.

    wishful thinking maybe, clifford? lil bit? ;)

    most people would agree that salisbury isn't a puppet for the phils though. matty gelb said they were getting close this past weekend too. i don't think anybody knows for sure. but cain signing this soon sucks.


    did you seet this? http://www.thegoodphight.com/2012/4/3/2 ... -mattingly

    harball talk linked to it too. good read. i despise the yankees but was a big donnie baseball fan growing up (the yankees were more tolerable when they were losing ). pretty good comparison

    salisbury has no sources outside of the organization. he's the definition of a puppet

    well, like i said, most people disagree with this for the most part. i know jp's a fan. never heard him referred to as a puppet (including all the times he has been refernced in this thread). heard that about stark. not salisbury.
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    The FixerThe Fixer Posts: 12,837
    well, like i said, most people disagree with this for the most part. i know jp's a fan. never heard him referred to as a puppet (including all the times he has been refernced in this thread). heard that about stark. not salisbury.

    well I don't know what most people even means here. like I said, I'll put more worth in the reporters who have industry connections over the guy that only gets his news from the phillies. I don't mind salisbury, but I don't think he's anything special. He's a solid beat writer...good at reporting what news the phils give him. If the phils want people to believe that they are close to a deal with hamels, then that's what he's going to report. guys like olney and rosenthal are more in the know (and not reliant on the phils to give them news), so if they are saying talks have stalled then that's what I'm going to believe since they are the ones talking to organizational people, players, agents, etc.

    stark is a clown with his dumb stats. salisbury is a puppet

    anyway, does anyone have any confidence in amaro to sign hamels to a reasonable deal at this point? I wouldn't be shocked if hamels gets a larger contract than votto
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    Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 33,664
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    "dormant in recent weeks?" i don't buy that.

    salisbury said a deal was close as recently as 5 days ago. hamels hinted that they needed to wait until after the season starts so it won't affect the luxury tax this year or something. i guess the cain deal may have thrown a wrench in the plans a bit though...still think a deal gets done. both sides sound like they want it.

    I don't think it was(is) as close as you think it was. Rosenthal said right after the Salisbury article that they hadn't spoken in weeks.

    wishful thinking maybe, clifford? lil bit? ;)

    most people would agree that salisbury isn't a puppet for the phils though. matty gelb said they were getting close this past weekend too. i don't think anybody knows for sure. but cain signing this soon sucks.


    did you seet this? http://www.thegoodphight.com/2012/4/3/2 ... -mattingly

    harball talk linked to it too. good read. i despise the yankees but was a big donnie baseball fan growing up (the yankees were more tolerable when they were losing ). pretty good comparison

    Not really, anymore. I don't think the Yanks go after him anymore even if he does get there if they are serious about the $189 mil and the Pineda trade. I thought the Salisbury thing sounded like a bunch of assumptions then Rosenthal said that, so I was a bit skeptical. We'll see soon.

    I did see that. I made this comparsion a few times over the past few weeks. Donnie got hurt a lot earlier and was pretty much done by Utley's age but it's a good comparsion. Mattingly is the man. My favorite player as a kid, obviously.
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    The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,562
    i was talking about most people in general. i've just never heard anyone refer to salisbury as a puppet before...same in here everytime his name has been mentioned.

    obviously rosenthal and olney have more sources since they're national. but i feel salisbury knows this team better than most.



    amaro's had a solid track record thus far assembling this staff. i think a deal gets done.....
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    Johnny AbruzzoJohnny Abruzzo Philly Posts: 10,771
    It sounded like they were close to a deal from the comments of one Cole Hamels, himself. At least to my ears.
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    The FixerThe Fixer Posts: 12,837


    amaro's had a solid track record thus far assembling this staff. i think a deal gets done.....

    amaro would be a fantastic GM if success was based on starting rotations

    I think they sign him too. I'm just paranoid to see what the contract looks like. just another misread market...this time instead of jumping the gun he waited too long. hamels price tag is going to go up after every 2012 start he makes. unlike howard, who would have no big market suitors for his potential free agency, hamels will have LAD, cubs, yanks, red sox, blue jays all waiting for him to hit the market

    I have no confidence in the guy
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    Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 16,789
    The Fixer wrote:
    anyway, does anyone have any confidence in amaro to sign hamels to a reasonable deal at this point? I wouldn't be shocked if hamels gets a larger contract than votto

    I think it'll be something like Halladay's contract.
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    The FixerThe Fixer Posts: 12,837
    The Fixer wrote:
    anyway, does anyone have any confidence in amaro to sign hamels to a reasonable deal at this point? I wouldn't be shocked if hamels gets a larger contract than votto

    I think it'll be something like Halladay's contract.

    I think that's wishful thinking. Halladay was the rare exception where the player picked a team and came here for less than he would have received on the open market. His contract is an absolute steal

    Hamels is going to get paid. 3 years, 60 mill would be awesome, but I don't think that's anywhere near enough years or loot.

    Crazy that hamels is still only 28. Seems like he's been here forever
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    Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 33,664
    Hamels said that the weaver contract isn't enough so halladay sure isn't
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    Johnny AbruzzoJohnny Abruzzo Philly Posts: 10,771
    The Fixer wrote:
    anyway, does anyone have any confidence in amaro to sign hamels to a reasonable deal at this point? I wouldn't be shocked if hamels gets a larger contract than votto

    I think it'll be something like Halladay's contract.

    Yeah, this ain't gonna happen. More like the Lee contract.
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    The FixerThe Fixer Posts: 12,837
    so anyone heading out to East Virginia for the games this weekend?
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    Johnny AbruzzoJohnny Abruzzo Philly Posts: 10,771
    The Fixer wrote:
    so anyone heading out to East Virginia for the games this weekend?

    It's more like NW Virginia. No, not gonna make it.
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    The FixerThe Fixer Posts: 12,837
    The Fixer wrote:
    so anyone heading out to East Virginia for the games this weekend?

    It's more like NW Virginia. No, not gonna make it.

    It's actually Eastern West Virginia, but that's too many words. I'm sticking with East Virginia.


    More hamels stuff...

    Matt Cain signed a contract extension with the San Francisco Giants yesterday, spanning five years and totaling $112.5 million guaranteed. The right-hander is 27 years old and has crafted an impressive resume as one of the most effective and most underrated pitchers in baseball. Last year, Cain tossed 221 and two-thirds innings with a K/BB approaching three-to-one (20 percent/7 percent) and a 2.88 ERA.

    Phillies fans should care about the Cain extension because it sets a floor for negotiations between the Phillies and Cole Hamels. Hamels will be eligible for free agency after the season, but both sides have expressed interest in continuing their partnership. Last year, Hamels tossed 216 innings with a K/BB approaching 4.5-to-one (23 percent/5 percent) and a 2.79 ERA. It was a career year for Hamels, who bounced back from a rough 2009 season by adding a cutter to his arsenal and improving his curveball, turning him into a four-pitch National League nightmare.

    Should Hamels reach free agency, he is expected to draw plenty of interest from baseball’s richest teams. He is one of the three best lefties in the league, along with teammate Cliff Lee and Clayton Kershaw of the Los Angeles Dodgers. The Yankees, with an endless supply of American currency, and the newly-purchased Dodgers are expected to be among the most pursuant. Because Cain and Hamels are so similar in nearly every way aside from their pitching hands, the recent extension with the Giants means that the Phillies cannot reasonably offer Hamels anything excessively lower than five years at $112.5 million. The Phillies were hoping to begin the bidding at a lower level…

    One person with knowledge of the situation says the Phils know how much Hamels will cost – $20 million or more per season – and are set to pay it. The person said the length of the deal is an issue, that the Phillies would like to do a four-year deal and Hamels wants more.

    … but now must start somewhere in the neighborhood of Cain’s contract. A signing was never likely to happen on Opening Day, as Jayson Stark explains:

    Hamels said his understanding is the Phillies don’t want to sign him before Opening Day because then “they’d have to deal with the luxury tax.” However, one source says that baseball has changed its luxury-tax rules in the last year, so there would be no luxury-tax implications on the team for 2012 regardless, as long as Hamels’ salary for this year remained unchanged.

    Once the regular season is underway, it is in the Phillies’ best interest to get Hamels locked up sooner rather than later. They played with fire with Jimmy Rollins last year and it very nearly cost them a productive shortstop, which would have been one more problem in an infield full of them. If Rollins hadn’t overestimated his own value and underestimated the aversion from other teams to his age and injury history, he very well could have been starting the 2012 season in another uniform. The Phillies won’t be so lucky if they go the same route with Hamels. Unlike Rollins, Hamels has youth and a clean bill of health on his side, along with all of the stuff he does on the mound.

    The Phillies can oppose market value now, or oppose market value and a handful of very wealthy teams in the off-season. Hamels’ price, now with a defined floor, will not be this low in November. For a Phillies team that will only get older and more injury-prone going forward, keeping Hamels around will provide them more certainty. If the Phillies are competitive in 2013 and beyond, Hamels will be the single biggest reason why.
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    The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,562
    fuck it. the guy was the world series mvp. i say give him a lifetime contract. :thumbup: :lol:


    in all seriousness...including rollins/utley etc etc...hamels is the one guy i can't envision playing anywhere else. would make me sick to my stomache to see.

    get it done god damn it.
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    Johnny AbruzzoJohnny Abruzzo Philly Posts: 10,771
    fuck it. the guy was the world series mvp. i say give him a lifetime contract. :thumbup: :lol:

    in all seriousness...including rollins/utley etc etc...hamels is the one guy i can't envision playing anywhere else. would make me sick to my stomache to see.

    get it done god damn it.

    I just don't see what the fucking problem is with getting this deal done. You have a home grown, potential hall of fame pitcher who has won a championship for you and is just entering his prime. WTF :?
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    Johnny AbruzzoJohnny Abruzzo Philly Posts: 10,771
    So I have a stupid question. Did we name a 5th starter?
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    The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,562
    So I have a stupid question. Did we name a 5th starter?

    it's blanton. isn't it?
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    The FixerThe Fixer Posts: 12,837
    So I have a stupid question. Did we name a 5th starter?

    it's blanton. isn't it?

    yeah. kendrick will be in the pen.

    glad that savery made the team. probably the best move of the offseason :roll:
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    Johnny AbruzzoJohnny Abruzzo Philly Posts: 10,771
    Lots of question marks with this team, but still a fucking amazing rotation.

    I'm ready to get past Temple Owl depression and watch some baseball!
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    jamminpearlsjamminpearls Posts: 7,078
    Lots of question marks with this team, but still a fucking amazing rotation.

    I'm ready to get past Temple Owl depression and watch some baseball!
    Can't wait for tomorrow!!! It's gonna be painful to watch some of these early season games i think.
    Go Birds!!!!
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    Johnny AbruzzoJohnny Abruzzo Philly Posts: 10,771
    Lots of question marks with this team, but still a fucking amazing rotation.

    I'm ready to get past Temple Owl depression and watch some baseball!
    Can't wait for tomorrow!!! It's gonna be painful to watch some of these early season games i think.

    Galvis seems like a triples machine, so that's something.
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    JK_LivinJK_Livin South Jersey Posts: 7,364
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    The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,562
    o/u dropped one game to 92.5. thought it would dip a little more with the utley/howard injury situations.

    despite all problems with the lineup right now, only the tigers and yanks have a higher total.

    i'm kinda leaning under though. gonna say 91 and that the division comes down to the last couple games with the marlins and bravos.

    think both ( :x ) wildcards come out of the east.
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    eeriepadaveeeriepadave West Chester, PA Posts: 41,311
    o/u dropped one game to 92.5. thought it would dip a little more with the utley/howard injury situations.

    despite all problems with the lineup right now, only the tigers and yanks have a higher total.

    i'm kinda leaning under though. gonna say 91 and that the division comes down to the last couple games with the marlins and bravos.

    think both ( :x ) wildcards come out of the east.

    i agree, probably low 90's in wins and both Miami and atlanta make the playoffs. Can't wait til tomorrow though :D
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    The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,562
    :D ...opening day and all is right with the world.

    prediction for today:

    freddy galvis: 4 for 4 with 4 grand slams. BOOM. :lol:


    go phils!
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    Johnny AbruzzoJohnny Abruzzo Philly Posts: 10,771
    :D ...opening day and all is right with the world.

    prediction for today:

    freddy galvis: 4 for 4 with 4 grand slams. BOOM. :lol:


    go phils!

    3 for 3 with 3 triples, a walk, SB, 3 RBI. ;)

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    The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,562
    :D ...opening day and all is right with the world.

    prediction for today:

    freddy galvis: 4 for 4 with 4 grand slams. BOOM. :lol:


    go phils!

    3 for 3 with 3 triples, a walk, SB, 3 RBI. ;)

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    Empty GlassEmpty Glass In Rob's shed Posts: 12,329
    Happy New Year, Phillies fans :D
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