So walk around naked all the time then. Until you do that, this argument is stupid. You are a human being with opposable thumbs and a brain to match. We live in a society, not a jungle. We are civilized, not wild animals.
Contrary to what the bible tells us, humans started wearing clothes for a lot of reasons other than hiding our sexy naughty bits from the world. :rolleyes:
I didn't twist the argument. Collin seemed to be trying to make a point that saying breastfeeding is natural isn't a good enough reason to do it. I didn't understand why he was trying to make that point and wanted him to clarify.
Because you are trying to make the point that it is part of nature, like a mama bear feeding her cub. Well, there is a glaring hole in your argument that Collin was pointing out; YOU ARE NOT A WILD ANIMAL IN THE JUNGLE.
you lost me. We're talking about the woman's breast used to feed the child, right? Being used to feed...not for a sexual purposed. I don't think she mentioned anything about children's sexual organs
Nothing sexual about feeding a child.
Nothing sexual about a child running around having fun.
I don't think it's offensive. I don't want to see it so I turn my head. It's fairly simple.
However, it's natural is not a good argument because many things are natural. Walking around naked is natural, animals do it. Taking a shit when you feel like it is natural (hey, we could even have our own human waste baggies, like we have for dog poo). Sex is natural, we should all screw whenever we're horny.
That's the "it's nature" argument. All these things are perfectly natural. Every human has to take a crap. It's normal. But we are human and we use discretion. That's all we ask for breastfeeding too. And I think most women are pretty discrete when they breastfeed.
I do think discretion is key...and I would think most breastfeeding mothers use as much discretion as possible. And I think that's the point - if you stop and stare you may see more than you're comfortable with...so don't. Feeding is not something we typically do in private, unlike taking a shit or having sex.
So North America is more highly evolved than European nations where breastfeeding is accepted and encouraged.
Fucking hell, no wonder the rest of the world hates us. :rolleyes:
Again, stop twisting the argument. I never said anything about better or worse. Just pointing out differences. For it is your immediate b-line to that idea that because we are different, we are better is why the rest of the world hates us. I was simply confirming with you that the culture here is different. We have (and I maybe poorly chose the word) "evolve" to help that point. Replace "evolve" with grow, change, decided we had different ideas. Whatever.
Contrary to what the bible tells us, humans started wearing clothes for a lot of reasons other than hiding our sexy naughty bits from the world. :rolleyes:
You want to be so nature and like wild animals. Why draw a line?
I do think discretion is key...and I would think most breastfeeding mothers use as much discretion as possible. And I think that's the point - if you stop and stare you may see more than you're comfortable with...so don't. Feeding is not something we typically do in private, unlike taking a shit or having sex.
Again, no one said breastfeeding is discouraged. Just use some discretion in public. Wow, you sure are all over the map with your argument.
How am I all over the map? My argument has been that breastfeeding should be done whenever/wherever necessary, and that people should just look the other way if it bothers them. I also made the point that, aside from the very occasional protest (which I do not think is necessary or helpful to the cause), mothers do use discretion.
The over zealous "I have a right" types wouldn't need to be the over zealous "I have a right" types if people didn't have the attitude that they don't have a right to breastfeed their babies in public.
I don't think we are talking about the same types of people, I'm referring (as someone else so delicately put it!) to the "pigs" who will merrily flop their boob out anywhere they like becasue they just don't give a damn about anybody else's feeling or whether it is an appropriate place.
For a start, just because one has a baby, does not mean that other needs don't need to be met. Grocery shopping for instance, clothes shopping.... etc.
I totally agree with you, I just don't buy the argument that this particular woman couldn't have found a more suitable and practical place to feed her child. Like someone else said, most women in this situation would go and find a bench or a cafe or the food court in a shopping centre - that's just plain logic to me.
Western cultures are the only one's who have really overly sexualized the breast and made it shameful to do something thats not only natural, but also the best possible thing you can do for your baby.
I'm sorry but that simply isn't true. There is much scientific evidence to show that a human female's breasts are primarily there for sexual attraction. Only a small percentage of a breast is made up of mammary glands which produce milk, the rest is made up of fat and conjunctive tissue. Many primates have a flat chest with a long nipple, which is far more conducive to breast feeding as it allows the baby to breath properly. Essentially what all this means, is that if breasts were only there for feeding purposes they wouldn't need to be anywhere near the size they are. There's a longer explanation as to why they have evolved to be bigger over time, which I will happily find you a link for.
You mentioned attachment parenting types as well........... these people account for the majority of parents in the world. People who separate themselves from their babies, put them in cots in another room, try to force them to sleep alone and leave them for long periods of time, are in the minority.
How you would have any way of quantifying your beliefs I do not know. And once again I think we are talking about different types of people. I'm referring to people who allow their toddlers to sleep in bed with them, who breast feed til 4 years + (or eight years as was posted in that video! :eek: ), and who generally do everything they can to prevent their child developing a sense of independence (albeit unknowingly).
Why should a woman, who is perfectly equipped to feed her baby when her baby needs to be fed, have to go through the sometimes excruciating process of expressing breast milk, sterilizing bottles and teats, searching out places that have the facilities to warm up the milk just to go down to the store, simply so people like you don't have to put up with the over zealous "I have a right" types?
I'm sorry but just because someone has a baby, doesn't give them a god-given right to completely disregard the feelings or thoughts of others. Reading though the cross-section of opinions on this thread ought to give you some idea of people's differing opinions in society.
Again, stop twisting the argument. I never said anything about better or worse. Just pointing out differences. For it is your immediate b-line to that idea that because we are different, we are better is why the rest of the world hates us. I was simply confirming with you that the culture here is different. We have (and I maybe poorly chose the word) "evolve" to help that point. Replace "evolve" with grow, change, decided we had different ideas. Whatever.
The word "evolve" (like the word "grow") implies that we are on a higher level. That's what I was responding to. If that's not what you meant, then thank you for clarifying.
I think the rest of the world is ahead of the US in terms of their view of breastfeeding.
The word "evolve" (like the word "grow") implies that we are on a higher level. That's what I was responding to. If that's not what you meant, then thank you for clarifying.
I think the rest of the world is ahead of the US in terms of their view of breastfeeding.
Grow? Couples grow apart all the time. No one is better or worse, they are just different now. Our ideals grew apart from their ideals. That's the way I view those words.
You are more like a shock jock, doing things that start out as necessary, but quickly will be used as an in-your-face tactic to try and change or shock society. I beleive in not making the general public, or my immediate company, uncomfortable just to make a point. You apparently do not care about the comfort level of your immediate company just as long as you get to do what you have to do.
Again, a little discretion goes a long way. I am not saying run and hide in a corner, cover up what sme people may not want to see. And if you are in their normal line of sight, they should not have to divert their eyes.
Grow? Couples grow apart all the time. No one is better or worse, they are just different now. Our ideals grew apart from their ideals. That's the way I view those words.
You are more like a shock jock, doing things that start out as necessary, but quickly will be used as an in-your-face tactic to try and change or shock society. I beleive in not making the general public, or my immediate company, uncomfortable just to make a point. You apparently do not care about the comfort level of your immediate company just as long as you get to do what you have to do.
There is no reason to turn this into a semantics debate. I was explaining my interpretation of your word choice, which you admitted might have been unclear.
I said (multiple times) that I don't support the idea of a protest, and that every mom I know (including myself, aside from the first days in the hospital while we were learning to breastfeed with the help of random nurses) is discreet when feeding their child. My point was that people should do their thing and be left alone. I don't see how that makes me like a shock jock, lol.
There is no reason to turn this into a semantics debate. I was explaining my interpretation of your word choice, which you admitted might have been unclear.
I said (multiple times) that I don't support the idea of a protest, and that every mom I know (including myself, aside from the first days in the hospital while we were learning to breastfeed with the help of random nurses) is discreet when feeding their child. My point was that people should do their thing and be left alone. I don't see how that makes me like a shock jock, lol.
You and I are very close in opinions.
You just seem to not care what makes others uncomfortable, and then when someone is uncomfortable, it seems like you would be even more in-your-face, just to prove your point. I disagree with that mentality.
I haven't read the entire 14 pages, but I'm pretty floored by this discussion. The lack of support given to women and children in our society never ceases to amaze me. Even just a neutral stance would be preferable to the judgemental attitudes of some people. :(
Just a quick thought on the comparison between feeding a baby and taking a shit or having sex in public... Taking a shit and having sex can wait. Feeding a screaming baby can't. (I'd be willing to bet that many of those people who have a problem with breastfeeding would also have a problem with the baby screaming from not being fed. You just can't win with some people.)
I'm sorry but that simply isn't true. There is much scientific evidence to show that a human female's breasts are primarily there for sexual attraction. Only a small percentage of a breast is made up of mammary glands which produce milk, the rest is made up of fat and conjunctive tissue. Many primates have a flat chest with a long nipple, which is far more conducive to breast feeding as it allows the baby to breath properly. Essentially what all this means, is that if breasts were only there for feeding purposes they wouldn't need to be anywhere near the size they are. There's a longer explanation as to why they have evolved to be bigger over time, which I will happily find you a link for.
But...actually, the fat (adipose tissue) surrounds the milk-producing portions of the breast, also collectively called "mammary glands". It is pretty much proportionate, except in very small-chested women.
I realize this had very little to do with your post, which I found interesting, but I have an itch to respond when it comes to breast anatomy.
AND...I would like to see that article. I am curious to know what context it was written in.
Take care,
I still want you all to "take care"--I am just damn tired of typing it.
There are incidents like this all the time. It probably makes bigger news if it happens during "breastfeeding awareness month". (I didn't know there was a designated month.)
Yeah - but I'm talking about the incidents where the woman has a copy of the law in her back pocket and is basically trying to get publicity.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I haven't read the entire 14 pages, but I'm pretty floored by this discussion. The lack of support given to women and children in our society never ceases to amaze me. Even just a neutral stance would be preferable to the judgemental attitudes of some people. :(
Just a quick thought on the comparison between feeding a baby and taking a shit or having sex in public... Taking a shit and having sex can wait. Feeding a screaming baby can't. (I'd be willing to bet that many of those people who have a problem with breastfeeding would also have a problem with the baby screaming from not being fed. You just can't win with some people.)
When your child is screaming to be fed, it is ABSOLUTELY more embarrassing (and more important) than letting people see less of your breast than they would on a public beach.
Once again, I am still wondering how many people that are posting negatively about breast feeding actually have children that they breast fed. No one has owned up yet...
Take care,
I still want you all to "take care"--I am just damn tired of typing it.
Yeah - but I'm talking about the incidents where the woman has a copy of the law in her back pocket and is basically trying to get publicity.
While I am obviously all for breast-feeding (or not if that is your choice), I do agree that there are "factions" of all types that go looking for a problem and to be given a reason to demonstrate. That does make it hard for people who have the same beliefs to be taken seriously when they have a complaint or concern.
However, in this case, I think the initial complaint was a one-person event that got noticed.
Take care,
I still want you all to "take care"--I am just damn tired of typing it.
Yeah - but I'm talking about the incidents where the woman has a copy of the law in her back pocket and is basically trying to get publicity.
Women are actually encouraged to carry a copy of the law in their diaper bag in case they run into opposition. After giving birth to my daughter, I received a wallet-sized card in the mail "from" Illinois first lady First Lady Patti Blagojevich which verified that it is indeed legal to breastfeed in a public place.
Comments
Contrary to what the bible tells us, humans started wearing clothes for a lot of reasons other than hiding our sexy naughty bits from the world. :rolleyes:
This is ridiculous.
Humans are animals. Yes, I never claimed otherwise.
Breastfeeding is natural. I never claimed otherwise.
naděje umírá poslední
So North America is more highly evolved than European nations where breastfeeding is accepted and encouraged.
Fucking hell, no wonder the rest of the world hates us. :rolleyes:
And because breastfeeding is natural, it should not be discouraged simply because some people associate breasts solely with sexuality.
Nothing sexual about feeding a child.
Nothing sexual about a child running around having fun.
It's as simple as that.
naděje umírá poslední
Yes. There is a lovely pair of them bouncing around in this thread right now.
And because nudity is natural, it should not be discouraged simply because some people associate nudity soley with sexuality.
naděje umírá poslední
Do you agree with the protest?
naděje umírá poslední
That's fine, I don't really give a fuck about nudity. We all look the same, more or less.
How am I all over the map? My argument has been that breastfeeding should be done whenever/wherever necessary, and that people should just look the other way if it bothers them. I also made the point that, aside from the very occasional protest (which I do not think is necessary or helpful to the cause), mothers do use discretion.
yea but it's that more or less part where it can get frightening
I don't think we are talking about the same types of people, I'm referring (as someone else so delicately put it!) to the "pigs" who will merrily flop their boob out anywhere they like becasue they just don't give a damn about anybody else's feeling or whether it is an appropriate place.
I totally agree with you, I just don't buy the argument that this particular woman couldn't have found a more suitable and practical place to feed her child. Like someone else said, most women in this situation would go and find a bench or a cafe or the food court in a shopping centre - that's just plain logic to me.
I'm sorry but that simply isn't true. There is much scientific evidence to show that a human female's breasts are primarily there for sexual attraction. Only a small percentage of a breast is made up of mammary glands which produce milk, the rest is made up of fat and conjunctive tissue. Many primates have a flat chest with a long nipple, which is far more conducive to breast feeding as it allows the baby to breath properly. Essentially what all this means, is that if breasts were only there for feeding purposes they wouldn't need to be anywhere near the size they are. There's a longer explanation as to why they have evolved to be bigger over time, which I will happily find you a link for.
How you would have any way of quantifying your beliefs I do not know. And once again I think we are talking about different types of people. I'm referring to people who allow their toddlers to sleep in bed with them, who breast feed til 4 years + (or eight years as was posted in that video! :eek: ), and who generally do everything they can to prevent their child developing a sense of independence (albeit unknowingly).
I'm sorry but just because someone has a baby, doesn't give them a god-given right to completely disregard the feelings or thoughts of others. Reading though the cross-section of opinions on this thread ought to give you some idea of people's differing opinions in society.
The word "evolve" (like the word "grow") implies that we are on a higher level. That's what I was responding to. If that's not what you meant, then thank you for clarifying.
I think the rest of the world is ahead of the US in terms of their view of breastfeeding.
You are more like a shock jock, doing things that start out as necessary, but quickly will be used as an in-your-face tactic to try and change or shock society. I beleive in not making the general public, or my immediate company, uncomfortable just to make a point. You apparently do not care about the comfort level of your immediate company just as long as you get to do what you have to do.
Again, a little discretion goes a long way. I am not saying run and hide in a corner, cover up what sme people may not want to see. And if you are in their normal line of sight, they should not have to divert their eyes.
There is no reason to turn this into a semantics debate. I was explaining my interpretation of your word choice, which you admitted might have been unclear.
I said (multiple times) that I don't support the idea of a protest, and that every mom I know (including myself, aside from the first days in the hospital while we were learning to breastfeed with the help of random nurses) is discreet when feeding their child. My point was that people should do their thing and be left alone. I don't see how that makes me like a shock jock, lol.
You just seem to not care what makes others uncomfortable, and then when someone is uncomfortable, it seems like you would be even more in-your-face, just to prove your point. I disagree with that mentality.
Just a quick thought on the comparison between feeding a baby and taking a shit or having sex in public... Taking a shit and having sex can wait. Feeding a screaming baby can't. (I'd be willing to bet that many of those people who have a problem with breastfeeding would also have a problem with the baby screaming from not being fed. You just can't win with some people.)
But...actually, the fat (adipose tissue) surrounds the milk-producing portions of the breast, also collectively called "mammary glands". It is pretty much proportionate, except in very small-chested women.
I realize this had very little to do with your post, which I found interesting, but I have an itch to respond when it comes to breast anatomy.
AND...I would like to see that article. I am curious to know what context it was written in.
Take care,
http://www.youtube.com/user/kcherub#p/a/u/0/N-UQprRqSwo
Yeah - but I'm talking about the incidents where the woman has a copy of the law in her back pocket and is basically trying to get publicity.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
When your child is screaming to be fed, it is ABSOLUTELY more embarrassing (and more important) than letting people see less of your breast than they would on a public beach.
Once again, I am still wondering how many people that are posting negatively about breast feeding actually have children that they breast fed. No one has owned up yet...
Take care,
http://www.youtube.com/user/kcherub#p/a/u/0/N-UQprRqSwo
While I am obviously all for breast-feeding (or not if that is your choice), I do agree that there are "factions" of all types that go looking for a problem and to be given a reason to demonstrate. That does make it hard for people who have the same beliefs to be taken seriously when they have a complaint or concern.
However, in this case, I think the initial complaint was a one-person event that got noticed.
Take care,
http://www.youtube.com/user/kcherub#p/a/u/0/N-UQprRqSwo
Women are actually encouraged to carry a copy of the law in their diaper bag in case they run into opposition. After giving birth to my daughter, I received a wallet-sized card in the mail "from" Illinois first lady First Lady Patti Blagojevich which verified that it is indeed legal to breastfeed in a public place.