my Niece got EXPELLED!

12346

Comments

  • eyedclaar wrote:
    Again, you are using your world view and assuming it should apply to everyone. Go into a Vietnamese restaurant and start using the term "Charlie" in reference to Vietamese people. Don't actually call anyone that, just use it in everyday conversation and see how that goes over. I'm sure they will consider it a race neutral term.

    i'm using simple historical evidence and the definition of the word itself, not some world view! its a nickname derived from army code designating Viet Cong. It doesnt matter what there culture is. the word itself isn't offensive!
  • FinsburyParkCarrotsFinsburyParkCarrots Seattle, WA Posts: 12,223
    cutback wrote:
    well.....this school is in huntington beach, ca which borders on fountain valley which has a huge vietnamese population so it is possible.....but since this whole incident completely insipid and insane this doesn't really matter :)


    Then it's probably all about fear of lawsuits and losing funding. The school needs Vietnamese money/students/etc., and is being hyper-paranoid, to the point of fearing that a military code term for an insurgent communist organisation might be interpreted as somehow constituting a synecdoche for a race.
  • normnorm Posts: 31,146
    Then it's probably all about lawsuits and funding, then. The school needs Vietnamese money and is being hyper-paranoid, to the point of thinking a military code term for an insurgent communist organisation somehow constitutes a synecdoche for a race.


    tis true
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    were there any Vietnamese people THERE to BE offended? :confused: I don't think so, so it's doubtful that has anything to do with it. Education is much better than punishment. Had the school taught the students to be sensitive, they wouldn't have to punish. Besides, from what I gather, it was simply a joke with her friends. Kids should be allowed to be kids... how the fuck are they supposed to know who's going to take offense at what? Kids are much less easily offended than adults... adults tend to go too far.

    It's obvious you may not have read some of my earlier post that I thought it was funny. However, that doesn't mean someone else might not think this was offensive. One does not have to be Vietnamese for this joke to be offensive to them it depends your feelings on the whole subject matter of Vietnam.

    Let's say someone from Afghanistan made similar actions or made fun of the death of Pat Tillman on how he was killed by friendly fire and our gov't covered it up. Even though may have been comical I would've taken offense to it. I'm not sure how you would but I certainly would and would've wanted her reprimanded but not to the extent of expulsion.

    Here's a bit more on Pat Tillman's death..Listen/Watch/Read
    http://www.democracynow.org/2008/5/22/mary_tillman_mother_of_slain_nfl
    Mary Tillman, Mother of Slain NFL Star, Afghan Vet Pat Tillman, on Her
    Four-Year Quest to Cut Through Military Cover-Up of Son's Death by
    Fratricide *

    Pat Tillman left behind a lucrative NFL contract to enlist in the military
    after 9/11. On April 22, 2004, Tillman was killed while serving in
    Afghanistan. He died, the military said, while charging up a hill toward the
    enemy to protect his fellow Army Rangers. But that wasn't the real story.
    Tillman was killed by his own men. What's more, the military knew that
    within hours but waited five weeks before admitting it. Four years and
    several probes later, Pat Tillman's family, led by his mother Mary, are
    still searching for answers about what really happened. Mary Tillman has
    just published a book based on her review of uncensored government documents
    and her four-year effort to cut through misleading official accounts of how
    her son died. It's called Boots on the Ground by Dusk: My Tribute to Pat
    Tillman.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • eyedclaareyedclaar Posts: 6,980
    MrSmith wrote:
    i'm using simple historical evidence and the definition of the word itself, not some world view! why would one use Charlie in referencing vietnamese people? Why would Vietnamese people be offended by it? its a nickname derived from army code designating Viet Cong. It doesnt matter what there culture is. the word itself isn't offensive!


    No word is offensive. They are just letters crammed together. It is what people associate with those crammed together letters that might be offensive to some. By the way, I got it, the term "Charlie" doesn't offend you. I never said it should. However, it might offend others whether you think it should or not. Therefore, public schools should be aware that it could be a sensitive issue.
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  • RiverrunnerRiverrunner Posts: 2,419
    Just my 2 cents: Your niece being expelled is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of!!! Something needs to be done with our current school system. I fear that we are raising children to be scared to say anything for fear of being in trouble - sort of like living in Myanmar, or the old Afghanistan, etc.
    The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals. Ghandi
  • BlackCorduroyBlackCorduroy Posts: 1,374
    Last week an attorney came to my journalism class and was giving us a lecture about the first amendment and freedom of speech..

    He told us about how a man burned the American Flag at the Republican National Convention a while ago and was arrested. The case was taken to the supreme court and they ruled that speech is still protected even if the general public finds it offensive.
  • eyedclaareyedclaar Posts: 6,980
    Last week an attorney came to my journalism class and was giving us a lecture about the first amendment and freedom of speech..

    He told us about how a man burned the American Flag at the Republican National Convention a while ago and was arrested. The case was taken to the supreme court and they ruled that speech is still protected even if the general public finds it offensive.

    That doesn't apply to public schools or employment. Free speech is not protected in those environments.
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  • smithnic wrote:
    That's really not funny...
    I don't care that the school didn't like it, and someone got suspended, whatever, the real issue here is the complete lack of anything funny in her statement. It's just not funny. Why would anyone laugh?


    thank you! I do not find it funny either....

    people are missing the point that it is making fun of what real veterans of the vietnam war have gone through-their flashbacks their mental hurt they have PTSS...it is not a joking matter
  • BlackCorduroyBlackCorduroy Posts: 1,374
    eyedclaar wrote:
    That doesn't apply to public schools or employment. Free speech is not protected in those environments.

    ah, yeah you're right, nevermind. still, the punishment is rediculous
  • roarroar Posts: 1,116
    Last week an attorney came to my journalism class and was giving us a lecture about the first amendment and freedom of speech..

    He told us about how a man burned the American Flag at the Republican National Convention a while ago and was arrested. The case was taken to the supreme court and they ruled that speech is still protected even if the general public finds it offensive.

    You'll probably learn about Tinker vs. Des Moines soon:
    "Student speech may be suppressed only if the speech: (1) materially and substantially interferes with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the schools; (2) invades or collides with the rights of others; (3) is vulgar, lewd, obscene, or plainly offensive; or (4) is school-sponsored. Additionally, as with free speech rights in any context, school officials may impose reasonable time, place and manner restrictions on student speech."
  • eyedclaareyedclaar Posts: 6,980
    ah, yeah you're right, nevermind. still, the punishment is rediculous


    I totally agree just in case that was lost on anyone despite me repeating it over and over again. There should have been no punishment in this situation.

    For the record, I am the least PC person you will ever meet when I'm not wearing my professional HR hat.
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  • BlackCorduroyBlackCorduroy Posts: 1,374
    roar wrote:
    You'll probably learn about Tinker vs. Des Moines soon:
    "Student speech may be suppressed only if the speech: (1) materially and substantially interferes with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the schools; (2) invades or collides with the rights of others; (3) is vulgar, lewd, obscene, or plainly offensive; or (4) is school-sponsored. Additionally, as with free speech rights in any context, school officials may impose reasonable time, place and manner restrictions on student speech."

    yeah i know, i was wrong. it gets kinda tricky
  • failedpersephonefailedpersephone Posts: 3,424
    well...I totally didn't intend for this to be a discourse on racism...also, I did talk to my niece about the joke. I wanted to make sure that she understood that there are people out there that really DO have PTSS over war (not just Viet Nam) I think that the school over reacted, I personally found it hilarious - but then again I find a lot of things in this world hilarious. I don't think it is possible to truly offend me with WORDS when ACTIONS that take place in this world are so offensive...it is offensive to me that we allow people to starve to death because of a difference in political beliefs...it is OFFENSIVE to me that wealth is not more equally distributed...or even distributed based on regional wealth.

    I told her that despite having cousins and Uncles that fought in this war, she had no real right to joke about another's misfortune...but to be honest my statements to her were rather hollow. I don't really feel that THIS case illustrated that. considering as she was doing a joke reenactment of classic Viet Nam war images...nothing more complex than that.

    At her school there were 4 kids dressed as "borat" for Halloween...so, it is really strange to me that they would single her out. (While I found Borat funny, I also could see how that was a racist caricature...that was pointing out racist caricatures)

    Once again, the issue that the school had was the insensitivity to Servicemen & women...

    I met with the Superintendent and three of the school board trustees, and the counselor...she has a 3 day in-school detention (she has to come to school but stay in the main office) while on detention she must write a paper on the repercussions of the viet nam war on 1. the homefront, 2 the Veitnamese survivors, 3 the veterans.

    she is allowed back in to her regular classes on Wednesday. So she wont be missing the AP placement tests.

    She has already written a paper on the lasting effects of the Viet Nam war on the American Conscience. it was titled "Will we ever "win" again? A Changing Homefront, the effects of the Viet Nam war on the American Public"

    but I suppose this paper won't count. :rolleyes:

    I would like to take this time to apologize to anyone on this thread who took offense at the joke.

    And her mom is beyond angry with me...apparently this is all my influence. :rolleyes:
    IF YOU WANT A PLATE OF MY BEEF SWELLINGTON, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO PAY THE COVERCHARGE.
  • EvilMerlinEvilMerlin Posts: 1,865
    well...I totally didn't intend for this to be a discourse on racism...also, I did talk to my niece about the joke. I wanted to make sure that she understood that there are people out there that really DO have PTSS over war (not just Viet Nam) I think that the school over reacted, I personally found it hilarious - but then again I find a lot of things in this world hilarious. I don't think it is possible to truly offend me with WORDS when ACTIONS that take place in this world are so offensive...it is offensive to me that we allow people to starve to death because of a difference in political beliefs...it is OFFENSIVE to me that wealth is not more equally distributed...or even distributed based on regional wealth.

    I told her that despite having cousins and Uncles that fought in this war, she had no real right to joke about another's misfortune...but to be honest my statements to her were rather hollow. I don't really feel that THIS case illustrated that. considering as she was doing a joke reenactment of classic Viet Nam war images...nothing more complex than that.

    At her school there were 4 kids dressed as "borat" for Halloween...so, it is really strange to me that they would single her out. (While I found Borat funny, I also could see how that was a racist caricature...that was pointing out racist caricatures)

    Once again, the issue that the school had was the insensitivity to Servicemen & women...

    I met with the Superintendent and three of the school board trustees, and the counselor...she has a 3 day in-school detention (she has to come to school but stay in the main office) while on detention she must write a paper on the repercussions of the viet nam war on 1. the homefront, 2 the Veitnamese survivors, 3 the veterans.

    she is allowed back in to her regular classes on Wednesday. So she wont be missing the AP placement tests.

    She has already written a paper on the lasting effects of the Viet Nam war on the American Conscience. it was titled "Will we ever "win" again? A Changing Homefront, the effects of the Viet Nam war on the American Public"

    but I suppose this paper won't count. :rolleyes:

    I would like to take this time to apologize to anyone on this thread who took offense at the joke.

    And her mom is beyond angry with me...apparently this is all my influence. :rolleyes:

    Damn you for having a sense of humor!

    All jokes aside, I'm glad it's all cleared up now to the point that she won't mess with any of her AP exams and all that jazz. In school suspension sucks though. I remember when I worked at the Jr High, I got stuck with that duty for a week. It's boring even when you're just working it! :p
  • normnorm Posts: 31,146

    And her mom is beyond angry with me...apparently this is all my influence. :rolleyes:

    yeah your screwed ;)


    glad cooler heads have prevailed....
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    She has already written a paper on the lasting effects of the Viet Nam war on the American Conscience. it was titled "Will we ever "win" again? A Changing Homefront, the effects of the Viet Nam war on the American Public"

    :

    I already love the title of her paper and have you read it?


    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • failedpersephonefailedpersephone Posts: 3,424
    cutback wrote:
    yeah your screwed ;)


    glad cooler heads have prevailed....

    YEAH...I can't believe we came from the same loins. (btw, THAT joke NEVER goes over well)

    She literally yelled at me for 23 minutes...I was afraid that she was going to hyperventilate since she didn't seem to be taking IN any air. part of her point was that my niece is very impressionable, and that EVERYTHING I do is "cool" to her...I am always the "cool" aunt...and she was trying to impress me. I guess my Sis says that she is ALWAYS trying to impress me...how she talks, dresses, movies she likes and *gasp* music.

    totally don't get that logic...I wasn't sitting on the grass at school. I mean, this would have been a joke to do in our backyard to impress me...not someplace where I wasnt. duh.

    She was like 'meow meow meow...it's a lot of responsibility to be such a figure to a young impressionable girl...meow meow meow..."

    I am kinda surprised at myself for just totally 'taking" all of that! I was like meek...

    strange...the sad thing is, I actually DO consider that my niece looks up to me...I am careful about what is projected, and I try really hard to be accessible to her - no question is ever turned down...no shame.
    IF YOU WANT A PLATE OF MY BEEF SWELLINGTON, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO PAY THE COVERCHARGE.
  • EvilMerlinEvilMerlin Posts: 1,865
    YEAH...I can't believe we came from the same loins. (btw, THAT joke NEVER goes over well)

    She literally yelled at me for 23 minutes...I was afraid that she was going to hyperventilate since she didn't seem to be taking IN any air. part of her point was that my niece is very impressionable, and that EVERYTHING I do is "cool" to her...I am always the "cool" aunt...and she was trying to impress me. I guess my Sis says that she is ALWAYS trying to impress me...how she talks, dresses, movies she likes and *gasp* music.

    totally don't get that logic...I wasn't sitting on the grass at school. I mean, this would have been a joke to do in our backyard to impress me...not someplace where I wasnt. duh.

    She was like 'meow meow meow...it's a lot of responsibility to be such a figure to a young impressionable girl...meow meow meow..."

    I am kinda surprised at myself for just totally 'taking" all of that! I was like meek...

    strange...the sad thing is, I actually DO consider that my niece looks up to me...I am careful about what is projected, and I try really hard to be accessible to her - no question is ever turned down...no shame.

    I got that talk from my sister once, well a couple times. Ugh, I hate it. I used to pick up my nephew from school 2 days a week. And one day a kid was really messing with him and hit him with a pine cone, so he fought the kid and beat him up.

    Long story short, she said because I was picking him up, he fought the kid to impress me while I was going over there. I was walking up and saw the kid hit him with the pine cone and he ran over and punched him. And that's how the fight took off. Nothing to it.

    However if my sister was picking him up, there's no way any of that would have happened. Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah. He fought the kid cause he knew I'd see it, but if I wasn't there, he wouldn't have provoked the kid to start a fight with him, ramble ramble ramble.
  • mookie9999mookie9999 Posts: 4,677
    At least she didn't say "GET SOME! GET SOME!!" followed by:

    Private Joker: Any women or children?
    Door Gunner: Sometimes!
    Private Joker: How can you shoot women or children?
    Door Gunner: Easy! Ya just don't lead 'em so much! Ain't war hell?
    "The leads are weak!"

    "The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"

    "What's your name?"

    "FUCK YOU! THAT"S MY NAME!"
  • eyedclaareyedclaar Posts: 6,980
    mookie9999 wrote:
    At least she didn't say "GET SOME! GET SOME!!" followed by:

    Private Joker: Any women or children?
    Door Gunner: Sometimes!
    Private Joker: How can you shoot women or children?
    Door Gunner: Easy! Ya just don't lead 'em so much! Ain't war hell?

    To quote Homer (the dumb one):

    Why me laugh?
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  • Was probably seen by someone who has first hand experience with PTSD and got really pissed off at it.
  • EquallyWorthlessEquallyWorthless Posts: 3,993
    Um what the heck kind of joke is that? It's extremely racist. How old is she? I dunno if the punishment is appropriate but what she said is really out of line IMO.


    charlie is a slang for enemy there is nothing racist about it

    "viet cong" ''VC'' "victor charlie" ''charlie"
    {if (work != 0) {
    work = work + 1;
    sleep = sleep - work * 10;}
    else if (work >= 0) {
    reality.equals(false);
    work = work +1;
    }system("pause");
    return 0;}
  • Maybe she really fought in nam?

    eh eh?
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • the wolfthe wolf Posts: 7,027
    eyedclaar wrote:
    Damn, I hate coming down on the side of the politally correct but like I've said before I work in HR and civil rights. This is what I do. I don't think you are in a position to judge whether or not a Vietnamese person would in fact find the term "Charlie" offensive. That is for the race being labeled/named to decide, not you. So, while you think it's really, really, funny - try putting yourself in their shoes for a second.

    Like I already said, expulsion is a complete overreaction but the school does need to be aware of sensitvity issues.

    but your wrong here, Charlie reffers to a soilder in the Viet Cong. has nothing to do with their race. the vietnamese called our airforce, soilders "round eyes" which does in fact reffer to our race. i hope you can see the difference between the two.

    this is way different.
    Peace, Love.


    "To question your government is not unpatriotic --
    to not question your government is unpatriotic."
    -- Sen. Chuck Hagel
  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Where I work we were forced to take a course on harassment, and we were told that if we felt like someone has said something offensive we first must tell them that what they said was offensive, before work or anyone else would even look at it, that seems reasonable. But as far as I'm concerned people take everything said way to serious.
    that is a very good stance to take... very reasonable. And yep, people DO take everything way too seriously.
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    eyedclaar wrote:
    So, if there were no black people around, the kids could run around shouting "nigger" at the top of their lungs?
    Yip :) . You behave according to your surroundings... I've a filthy mouth on me but I don't swear in church or in front of my boyfriends mother... cos that's just what you do. However, whatever I want to say in front of my friends or in my house should be completely legal, people can't even mimic accents anymore cos it's 'racist' :confused: what about actors? Just cos one person takes offense to something that isnt' even about THEM... well that's freedom of speech gone right down the drain... besides, wasn't the reason that she offended the troops... NOT the Vietnamese. How does that one work?
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    smithnic wrote:
    That's really not funny...
    I don't care that the school didn't like it, and someone got suspended, whatever, the real issue here is the complete lack of anything funny in her statement. It's just not funny. Why would anyone laugh?
    cos it's fucking hilarious... the kid was imitating an episode of south park or platoon or whatever! She should take acting classes perhaps. Fuck school, maybe that's where her future is.
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    MrSmith wrote:
    I dont understand where you are coming from saying that a person can decide something is offensive and it automatically is. There has to be some reasonable degree of insult meant.
    Very well said... pretty much sums up MY problem with political correctness.
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    g under p wrote:
    Let's say someone from Afghanistan made similar actions or made fun of the death of Pat Tillman on how he was killed by friendly fire and our gov't covered it up. Even though may have been comical I would've taken offense to it. I'm not sure how you would but I certainly would and would've wanted her reprimanded but not to the extent of expulsion.
    If Pat Tillman were Irish, there would have been jokes flying around within minutes... that's just how we work. No matter how much people are upset by the death of someone... Princess Diana :rolleyes: , Ken Bigley, Madeleine McCann (disappearance) it's in our nature to, rather than feel miserable or depressed over it, we have to laugh at stuff... ya know the kinda nervous laugh you might get at a funeral?
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
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