1. If you believe that americans politicians had anything to do with the JFK assassin - then you will now what men in power are capable of. The same 3 questions - Who benefit, who had the power to pull it off and who had the power to cover it up.
2. Dont underestimate the motives
3. There were several warnings of such an attack. Get to know the facts. Also, get to know the timetable. That a plane can crash into the pentagon some time after the biggest terroristattack on american soil, is f%#&ing unbelievable. One guy also testified to the commision that Dick himself ordered the plane not to get shot down. He was in the same room.
4. I didnt ask whether you believe it was him or not. Just saying it was strange that 19 men + osama was guilty the next day when at the same time claim not to have any knowledge of such an attack.
5. So you agree that the president should be seated? One thing is that he should be taken into safety, the other thing is that when the country is under attack - shouldnt he do something?
as I said above...this threat was aimed merely to get some answers to my original question...still I will respond to some of the points you made shortly...
1. there is more than one government(interest group) in the world who can pull it off to kill a statesman...not only the us goverment killing their own president
sure it's possible...but highly unlikely...
2. you please also don't underestimate the motives of actual terrorists!! please...
3. I'm not talking about the pentagon...I was talking about WTC...you still have to deliver some proof THAT this could have been as easily prevented as you claim...
4. strange...well...dunno...it's not strange it was believed one day afterwards that it was some group with aims similiar to Bin Ladens
5. If he acted according to the situation or not...is not the question here...I make a claim I can't prove now...but if he knew about it...don't you think he would try to act surprised...or that the government would try an seize the video that shows him acting so weird??? or is it not as powerful as you claim?
as some one else stated above...on the one hand the US is so powerful to pull such a hoax...on the other they make the silliest of mistakes...highly unlikely...
people should start to realize that in the USA...bridges crumble just like that because of no maintanence...a great many people just live in wooden shacks or trailers...one tornado can kill the energy supply of a whole region for days...those are things people seriously could blame the government for...
!!!the US is a NORMAL country...just like any other...!!!
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Yeah, good luck with that one. As long as the thorazine crowd is allowed to run unmolested through the streets of the pit, you're not going to get coherent answers on this.
Conspiracy theorists are their own special breed of mental illness. They need to feel they have some secret knowledge, because otherwise, they'd have to accept the stark knowledge that nobody is out to get them, nobody cares about them and that their lives are just as pathetic as everyone elses.
what a completely fucking downright ignorant post :mad:
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Who do you believe flew those planes crashing into the WTC?
...the actual pilots? (what was their reward?)
...CIA agents? (reward?)
...Auto-Pilot? (where did the pilots go?)
...empty plaines? (dead passengers?)
...steered by radiowave-transmission (from the ground on? pilots again?)
...Al-Quaida supporters who were tricked into believing it was A-Q behind it?
...A-Q supporters with A-Q instructing them, but A-Q working with the admin?
........???
I believe the people flying the plane were those we've been lead to believe were flying it. I believe everything ON THE DAY happened as we've been told, pretty much! I believe those people did it because they were part of Al Quaeda and because that was what they felt they had to do for whatever reasons. I believe Osama was behind it.
However, despite believing all that, I also believe it was an inside job work that one out.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I believe very strongly that 9/11 was an inside job, at least to the point where the U.S. was complacent. With that in mind, I'd say your last option is the easiest to believe. But I think it's very possible that it's much deeper and much more corrupt.
Yep. A question like this cannot be answered! Cos many conspiracy theorists believe that a lot of things happen for a reason that we cannot possibly comprehend. Much of it is to do with money and power and I think if we knew the full truth about everything our heads would explode.
The way I look at things... when something big, bad and ugly happens... who benefits? Who has the most to gain from this tragedy? If it's a simple murder, maybe 8 times out of 10 that person will be found guilty. I believe the same rules still apply for the much bigger stuff. BUT when these people have all the power, how the hell would you ever know?
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
this, as I explain in an edit in the original post, is something entirely different from a common suicide attack.
a suicide attack is carried out against a hated enemy, while the attacker additionally might believe that he does something good and gets extra rewards in heaven...
Obviously the pilots/terrorists were not in on any potential inside job. Since when do these people do their own dirty work? You fool others into doing it FOR you.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
, they'd have to accept the stark knowledge that nobody is out to get them, nobody cares about them and that their lives are just as pathetic as everyone elses.
Right down to tools who believe they are the chosen race, to tools who think they own specific land, to tools who think another race is out to axe them, to tools who don't think oil had anything to do with going into Iraq, to tools who think that a plane in Penn just crashed leaving a trail how many miles long of crap on the ground. Can I play your game to? It is such an easy game to play.
cause there are easier way to get a war started by the single most spectacular(in a negative way) attack EVER carried out in history...
I believe you just have to claim that a country has weapons of mass destruction...
m.
Pre 9/11 that would NEVER have worked
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I believe the people flying the plane were those we've been lead to believe were flying it. I believe everything ON THE DAY happened as we've been told, pretty much! I believe those people did it because they were part of Al Quaeda and because that was what they felt they had to do for whatever reasons. I believe Osama was behind it.
However, despite believing all that, I also believe it was an inside job work that one out.
another model response...thank you very much, Helen:)
that's exactly what this post was aiming at...getting clear reponses
and sorry I repeat myself...
but I think it's necesaary to thank the people who make a statement flat out without evasive tactics...since so few have done that...
so...thanks again Helen:)
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
that's what I keep repeating...without facts I can form all kinds of opinions
m.
Exactly... many of the 'facts' behind 9/11 simply do not add up... surely even the STRONGEST Bush supporter must have been wondering why family Bin Laden was flown out of the country so quickly so... without the facts, I can form all kinds of opinions.
I'm not sure about the 'official conspiracy theories' on this one but it seems pretty obvious that all does not add up. Usually that means there's something to it.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
you obvioulsy don't care too much...
have you actually ever tried to get any information about 911 from any non-conspiracy source...
You don't need to try. I believe there was an article in the papers every day for up to a year afterwards and something every couple of weeks thereafter. The 'official' story... well you'd have to try pretty hard and even then it would be impossible not to know the 'official facts'.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Ok, same old story - we dont seem to get any further so lets just agree on disagree..:)
But a NORMAL country like anyone else...? Have u been travelling a lot?
(been to the states lots of times - and love it)
alright with me:)
although I don't agree to disagree on what I repeatedly stated:
if you make a claim->burden of proof is on you
claiming something that can't be disproved is not even closely related to an argument...
if I disprove a claim, I don't have to make a counter-claim to make my disprove complete...disproving something is enough to disprove...
that's ALL I really want people to understand here...
and the ABOVE really is NOT opinion...it IS FACT...that's the way how KNOWLEDGE, not speculation is gathered!!!
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Yep. A question like this cannot be answered! Cos many conspiracy theorists believe that a lot of things happen for a reason that we cannot possibly comprehend. Much of it is to do with money and power and I think if we knew the full truth about everything our heads would explode.
The way I look at things... when something big, bad and ugly happens... who benefits? Who has the most to gain from this tragedy? If it's a simple murder, maybe 8 times out of 10 that person will be found guilty. I believe the same rules still apply for the much bigger stuff. BUT when these people have all the power, how the hell would you ever know?
you are starting with an unproven premise (someone has ALL power) and built all other facts around it...
that's exactly what religions do...or the communist ideology for that matter...
and if something doesn't fit...it can always be blamed on Power, cause they made it not fit...
do you agree with this statement?
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Obviously the pilots/terrorists were not in on any potential inside job. Since when do these people do their own dirty work? You fool others into doing it FOR you.
another very valuable answer, thank you:)
the thread really is getting better:)
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
you are starting with an unproven premise (someone has ALL power) and built all other facts around it...
that's exactly what religions do...or the communist ideology for that matter...
and if something doesn't fit...it can always be blamed on Power, cause they made it not fit...
do you agree with this statement?
m.
I would agree or disagree or remain neutral if I knew what your point is it's nothing to do with what I said.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
The way I look at things... when something big, bad and ugly happens... who benefits? Who has the most to gain from this tragedy?
Such a view seems to exclude the possibilty that shit happens for no particular reason. Even if it benefits someone (as it invariably does, if nothing else construction companies), doesn't mean that they planned it. I dont believe the ice cream companies control the weather, even if they can be shown to have made a large profit from warm weather.
This is meant as a general comment. Shit do happen, and some (not necessarily you) loathe to acknowledge that. Someone has to be in control. The alternative that we (humans) dont really have the control we believe we do is unacceptable for many.
There may well be fishy details about 9/11, but personally I think if something is covered up, it's the fact just how incompetent they were in preventing it with the info they had somewhere in the system, and how poorly they really reacted to an unexpected crisis. (edit) And probably how easily it can happen again no matter what measures is implemented.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
another very valuable answer, thank you:)
the thread really is getting better:)
m.
I love how you enforce the point at the beginning of the thread that you're not trying to mock... when that's all you do
Obviously you don't believe it's an inside job, that's fine. But you reckon you GENUINELY want to know why others do. We're trying to explain... but it's not an easy one to explain cos fact is, nobody (not even you) knows the truth. It's obvious a lot of things didn't add up surrounding 9/11. So you can accept a certain theory... but, like everything else, accept that other people have different opinions.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Exactly... many of the 'facts' behind 9/11 simply do not add up... surely even the STRONGEST Bush supporter must have been wondering why family Bin Laden was flown out of the country so quickly so... without the facts, I can form all kinds of opinions.
I'm not sure about the 'official conspiracy theories' on this one but it seems pretty obvious that all does not add up. Usually that means there's something to it.
most members in the Bin Laden family have absolutely nothing to do with Osama...
they were allowed to fly out with their young children because they were afraid to by lynched...
this explanation is one that I can relate to far easier, than that they were "in" on it...and then of course helped by the FBI...why would they let it become public if they are all powerful???
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Such a view seems to exclude the possibilty that shit happens for no particular reason. Even if it benefits someone (as it invariably does, if nothing else construction companies), doesn't mean that they planned it. I dont believe the ice cream companies control the weather, even if they can be shown to have made a large profit from warm weather.
This is meant as a general comment. Shit do happen, and some (not necessarily you) loathe to acknowledge that. Someone has to be in control. The alternative that we (humans) dont really have the control we believe we do is unacceptable for many.
There may well be fishy details about 9/11, but personally I think if something is covered up, it's the fact just how incompetent they were in preventing it with the info they had somewhere in the system, and how poorly they really reacted to an unexpected crisis. (edit) And probably how easily it can happen again no matter what measures is implemented.
Peace
Dan
Good points
Yep, shit DOES happen at times out of the blue... and sometimes it's actually NOT out of the blue. We do have control over some things, and we don't have control over lots. Your point is either here nor there cos, regarding this particular case, some of us believe the control was there... others don't.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Serious question. Is the last description for what he is wanted for "ATTACK ON A FEDERAL FACILITY RESULTING IN DEATH" in connection with the Pentagon or something else in the Middle East like an embassy?
Seeing visions of falling up somehow.
Pensacola '94 New Orleans '95 Birmingham '98 New Orleans '00 New Orleans '03 Tampa '08 New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest Fenway Park '18 St. Louis '22
You don't need to try. I believe there was an article in the papers every day for up to a year afterwards and something every couple of weeks thereafter. The 'official' story... well you'd have to try pretty hard and even then it would be impossible not to know the 'official facts'.
if you approach something with a fixed mindset, like that the media is controlled by the goverment (or the puppet master) and just used to spread propaganda...then well, you have no possibility to look into facts...
like this website I linked many times...
I doubt anyone here has taken 3 to 4 hours like me and actually read through it...http://conspiracyscience.com/
so guy claimed it was complete bullshit 30min(!!!!!!!) after I posted the link for the first time....so how is that for looking into facts...???
I'm sorry, but evidence adds up in this thread alone that nobody is even willing to doubt there is a conspiracy...
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
I would agree or disagree or remain neutral if I knew what your point is it's nothing to do with what I said.
well I analysed where your point is coming from:
a believe in an all powerful entity(group, lobby whatever)
a believe with doesn't have any substantial prove...
still every fact you encouter you view in the light of your first premise (which is unsubstanial) and then you take it as to confirm your believe...
from you many posts, I take it that you believe in a group if people who have (almost) all power...no?
and I say...this way of starting with an unsubstantial claim...is similiar to someone who says...god did it...or aliens...cause it can't be disproven!
is that clearer now?
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
I love how you enforce the point at the beginning of the thread that you're not trying to mock... when that's all you do
Obviously you don't believe it's an inside job, that's fine. But you reckon you GENUINELY want to know why others do. We're trying to explain... but it's not an easy one to explain cos fact is, nobody (not even you) knows the truth. It's obvious a lot of things didn't add up surrounding 9/11. So you can accept a certain theory... but, like everything else, accept that other people have different opinions.
Indeed, people can have different opinions and all opinions must be respected. Totally agree, but if it is claimed it is a conspiracy theory, then a theory by definition must be proven!
I think what nobody is trying to do is get the proof of their opinions out of the conspiracy theorists to see whether their opinions are valid or not, whether they stand on their merits against basic reasoning and argumentation.
Like another poster mentioned earlier (slighofjeff, I believe) when also quoting Occam's razor, you cannot prove a negative and so the burden of the proof is on the conspiracy theorists to prove why their ideas are valid when denying all the other explanations.
I love how you enforce the point at the beginning of the thread that you're not trying to mock... when that's all you do
/quote]
oh, but I'm all serious here!!!!!!!!!!
I started this threat to get answers to one little question...
then people start to bring in all kinds of other crap...that I partly mocked, yes...
but I appreciate your clear answers to my question...and that's the truth!!!
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
they were allowed to fly out with their young children because they were afraid to by lynched...
m.
And that you know for sure?
At my most arrogant.. I state to myself that I dont need facts when everything fall so simply into place.
Anyway, for a nonbeliever - First thing u gotto to do is coming to terms with the fact that the people who are running america these days, are not working for the John Doe.
What I find hard to grasp, is how many know what really happened and how many know something of what happened.
And now some naziquotes - just because of your signature..
- Not every item of news should be published. Rather must those who control news policies endeavor to make every item of news serve a certain purpose. (Goebbels)
- The war made possible for us the solution of a whole series of problems that could never have been solved in normal times. (Goebbels)
- Of course the people don't want war. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country. (Goering)
- The efficiency of the truly national leader consists primarily in preventing the division of the attention of a people, and always in concentrating it on a single enemy. (Hitler)
- The size of the lie is a definite factor in causing it to be believed, for the vast masses of a nation are in the depths of their hearts more easily deceived than they are consciously and intentionally bad. The primitive simplicity of their minds renders them a more easy prey to a big lie than a small one, for they themselves often tell little lies, but would be ashamed to tell big lies. (Hitler)
that they don't support with facts...
no, such opinions I cannot accept...
and if you read the thread you will see that I never mock any post that gives a direct answer to my question...and that doesn't come up with pictures of dust clouds...
I want people's opinions on my question...they don't have to support it...
but if they make claims that have nothing to do with the question, yeah...then I get upset and want them to support is...
saying that 911 is like the Reichstags fire is an opinion, yes...
but it is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE!!!!!!!!
and nobody should be called arrogant for pointing out that nonsense!!!!!!!
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Yep, shit DOES happen at times out of the blue... and sometimes it's actually NOT out of the blue. We do have control over some things, and we don't have control over lots. Your point is either here nor there cos, regarding this particular case, some of us believe the control was there... others don't.
I know. I wasn't refuting you per se. I just felt it needed commenting that there's always someone behind bad things.
And the control issue is relevant to 9/11 and other conspiracies as powerful innate motivations for looking for the someone or something in control. a lot of the same drive that made us look for god(s) in the first place. Random calamity is unbearable, but if it's because the gods are angry, then we can repent and thus do something to control it.
That said, of course there are cases where there are someone behind, but I think that it is more rare than many believes.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
also some valid experiment for people who believe in an all powerful HUMAN force...
go to the woods, and look at an ant's heap for a few hours...no human society can ever hope to work that precisely...and ants can't even think...
so do you think there is an all powerful ant behind it that controls every other ant???
or is it just a complex interdependecy of many individuals, who's outcome absolutely NOONE can either predict nor control...
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Obviously the pilots/terrorists were not in on any potential inside job. Since when do these people do their own dirty work? You fool others into doing it FOR you.
So simply put. Exactly what i was saying last night but i think it was to complicated for some to understand.
Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
Indeed, people can have different opinions and all opinions must be respected. Totally agree, but if it is claimed it is a conspiracy theory, then a theory by definition must be proven!
I think what nobody is trying to do is get the proof of their opinions out of the conspiracy theorists to see whether their opinions are valid or not, whether they stand on their merits against basic reasoning and argumentation.
Like another poster mentioned earlier (slighofjeff, I believe) when also quoting Occam's razor, you cannot prove a negative and so the burden of the proof is on the conspiracy theorists to prove why their ideas are valid when denying all the other explanations.
yeah, that's sort of how it turned out I guess:)
I just put myself into the mind of someone who believes that the WTC was blown up my US forces...
and the first thing that came across my mind was the question of who flew those plains if not terrorists, and how were they made to kill themselves...
I didn't want substantial proof for the answers...just wanted to collect them somehow...and then evaluate them together...
turned out people came up with all kinds of other outrageous claims, and I got carried away...
now I just want to get this across:
there ACTUALLY are invalid opinions...the ones that have no substantial back-up...I can respect them sure...but I wouldn't pay respect to anyone here, if I didn't point out absolutely FALSE believes some people come up with here...
and this I tend to do with facts...(accurate) historical examples...and common sense...I'm sorry if I insulted anyone...but I get angry when someone claims utter nonsense and them blames be for not considering it to be true...
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Comments
as I said above...this threat was aimed merely to get some answers to my original question...still I will respond to some of the points you made shortly...
1. there is more than one government(interest group) in the world who can pull it off to kill a statesman...not only the us goverment killing their own president
sure it's possible...but highly unlikely...
2. you please also don't underestimate the motives of actual terrorists!! please...
3. I'm not talking about the pentagon...I was talking about WTC...you still have to deliver some proof THAT this could have been as easily prevented as you claim...
4. strange...well...dunno...it's not strange it was believed one day afterwards that it was some group with aims similiar to Bin Ladens
5. If he acted according to the situation or not...is not the question here...I make a claim I can't prove now...but if he knew about it...don't you think he would try to act surprised...or that the government would try an seize the video that shows him acting so weird??? or is it not as powerful as you claim?
as some one else stated above...on the one hand the US is so powerful to pull such a hoax...on the other they make the silliest of mistakes...highly unlikely...
people should start to realize that in the USA...bridges crumble just like that because of no maintanence...a great many people just live in wooden shacks or trailers...one tornado can kill the energy supply of a whole region for days...those are things people seriously could blame the government for...
!!!the US is a NORMAL country...just like any other...!!!
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
But a NORMAL country like anyone else...? Have u been travelling a lot?
(been to the states lots of times - and love it)
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
However, despite believing all that, I also believe it was an inside job
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
The way I look at things... when something big, bad and ugly happens... who benefits? Who has the most to gain from this tragedy? If it's a simple murder, maybe 8 times out of 10 that person will be found guilty. I believe the same rules still apply for the much bigger stuff. BUT when these people have all the power, how the hell would you ever know?
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Right down to tools who believe they are the chosen race, to tools who think they own specific land, to tools who think another race is out to axe them, to tools who don't think oil had anything to do with going into Iraq, to tools who think that a plane in Penn just crashed leaving a trail how many miles long of crap on the ground. Can I play your game to? It is such an easy game to play.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
another model response...thank you very much, Helen:)
that's exactly what this post was aiming at...getting clear reponses
and sorry I repeat myself...
but I think it's necesaary to thank the people who make a statement flat out without evasive tactics...since so few have done that...
so...thanks again Helen:)
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
I'm not sure about the 'official conspiracy theories' on this one but it seems pretty obvious that all does not add up. Usually that means there's something to it.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
alright with me:)
although I don't agree to disagree on what I repeatedly stated:
if you make a claim->burden of proof is on you
claiming something that can't be disproved is not even closely related to an argument...
if I disprove a claim, I don't have to make a counter-claim to make my disprove complete...disproving something is enough to disprove...
that's ALL I really want people to understand here...
and the ABOVE really is NOT opinion...it IS FACT...that's the way how KNOWLEDGE, not speculation is gathered!!!
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
you are starting with an unproven premise (someone has ALL power) and built all other facts around it...
that's exactly what religions do...or the communist ideology for that matter...
and if something doesn't fit...it can always be blamed on Power, cause they made it not fit...
do you agree with this statement?
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
another very valuable answer, thank you:)
the thread really is getting better:)
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
This is meant as a general comment. Shit do happen, and some (not necessarily you) loathe to acknowledge that. Someone has to be in control. The alternative that we (humans) dont really have the control we believe we do is unacceptable for many.
There may well be fishy details about 9/11, but personally I think if something is covered up, it's the fact just how incompetent they were in preventing it with the info they had somewhere in the system, and how poorly they really reacted to an unexpected crisis. (edit) And probably how easily it can happen again no matter what measures is implemented.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Obviously you don't believe it's an inside job, that's fine. But you reckon you GENUINELY want to know why others do. We're trying to explain... but it's not an easy one to explain cos fact is, nobody (not even you) knows the truth. It's obvious a lot of things didn't add up surrounding 9/11. So you can accept a certain theory... but, like everything else, accept that other people have different opinions.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
most members in the Bin Laden family have absolutely nothing to do with Osama...
they were allowed to fly out with their young children because they were afraid to by lynched...
this explanation is one that I can relate to far easier, than that they were "in" on it...and then of course helped by the FBI...why would they let it become public if they are all powerful???
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Yep, shit DOES happen at times out of the blue... and sometimes it's actually NOT out of the blue. We do have control over some things, and we don't have control over lots. Your point is either here nor there cos, regarding this particular case, some of us believe the control was there... others don't.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm
Serious question. Is the last description for what he is wanted for "ATTACK ON A FEDERAL FACILITY RESULTING IN DEATH" in connection with the Pentagon or something else in the Middle East like an embassy?
Pensacola '94
New Orleans '95
Birmingham '98
New Orleans '00
New Orleans '03
Tampa '08
New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest
New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest
Fenway Park '18
St. Louis '22
if you approach something with a fixed mindset, like that the media is controlled by the goverment (or the puppet master) and just used to spread propaganda...then well, you have no possibility to look into facts...
like this website I linked many times...
I doubt anyone here has taken 3 to 4 hours like me and actually read through it...http://conspiracyscience.com/
so guy claimed it was complete bullshit 30min(!!!!!!!) after I posted the link for the first time....so how is that for looking into facts...???
I'm sorry, but evidence adds up in this thread alone that nobody is even willing to doubt there is a conspiracy...
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
well I analysed where your point is coming from:
a believe in an all powerful entity(group, lobby whatever)
a believe with doesn't have any substantial prove...
still every fact you encouter you view in the light of your first premise (which is unsubstanial) and then you take it as to confirm your believe...
from you many posts, I take it that you believe in a group if people who have (almost) all power...no?
and I say...this way of starting with an unsubstantial claim...is similiar to someone who says...god did it...or aliens...cause it can't be disproven!
is that clearer now?
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Indeed, people can have different opinions and all opinions must be respected. Totally agree, but if it is claimed it is a conspiracy theory, then a theory by definition must be proven!
I think what nobody is trying to do is get the proof of their opinions out of the conspiracy theorists to see whether their opinions are valid or not, whether they stand on their merits against basic reasoning and argumentation.
Like another poster mentioned earlier (slighofjeff, I believe) when also quoting Occam's razor, you cannot prove a negative and so the burden of the proof is on the conspiracy theorists to prove why their ideas are valid when denying all the other explanations.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
And that you know for sure?
At my most arrogant.. I state to myself that I dont need facts when everything fall so simply into place.
Anyway, for a nonbeliever - First thing u gotto to do is coming to terms with the fact that the people who are running america these days, are not working for the John Doe.
What I find hard to grasp, is how many know what really happened and how many know something of what happened.
And now some naziquotes - just because of your signature..
- Not every item of news should be published. Rather must those who control news policies endeavor to make every item of news serve a certain purpose. (Goebbels)
- The war made possible for us the solution of a whole series of problems that could never have been solved in normal times. (Goebbels)
- Of course the people don't want war. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country. (Goering)
- The efficiency of the truly national leader consists primarily in preventing the division of the attention of a people, and always in concentrating it on a single enemy. (Hitler)
- The size of the lie is a definite factor in causing it to be believed, for the vast masses of a nation are in the depths of their hearts more easily deceived than they are consciously and intentionally bad. The primitive simplicity of their minds renders them a more easy prey to a big lie than a small one, for they themselves often tell little lies, but would be ashamed to tell big lies. (Hitler)
that they don't support with facts...
no, such opinions I cannot accept...
and if you read the thread you will see that I never mock any post that gives a direct answer to my question...and that doesn't come up with pictures of dust clouds...
I want people's opinions on my question...they don't have to support it...
but if they make claims that have nothing to do with the question, yeah...then I get upset and want them to support is...
saying that 911 is like the Reichstags fire is an opinion, yes...
but it is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE!!!!!!!!
and nobody should be called arrogant for pointing out that nonsense!!!!!!!
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
And the control issue is relevant to 9/11 and other conspiracies as powerful innate motivations for looking for the someone or something in control. a lot of the same drive that made us look for god(s) in the first place. Random calamity is unbearable, but if it's because the gods are angry, then we can repent and thus do something to control it.
That said, of course there are cases where there are someone behind, but I think that it is more rare than many believes.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
go to the woods, and look at an ant's heap for a few hours...no human society can ever hope to work that precisely...and ants can't even think...
so do you think there is an all powerful ant behind it that controls every other ant???
or is it just a complex interdependecy of many individuals, who's outcome absolutely NOONE can either predict nor control...
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
So simply put. Exactly what i was saying last night but i think it was to complicated for some to understand.
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
yeah, that's sort of how it turned out I guess:)
I just put myself into the mind of someone who believes that the WTC was blown up my US forces...
and the first thing that came across my mind was the question of who flew those plains if not terrorists, and how were they made to kill themselves...
I didn't want substantial proof for the answers...just wanted to collect them somehow...and then evaluate them together...
turned out people came up with all kinds of other outrageous claims, and I got carried away...
now I just want to get this across:
there ACTUALLY are invalid opinions...the ones that have no substantial back-up...I can respect them sure...but I wouldn't pay respect to anyone here, if I didn't point out absolutely FALSE believes some people come up with here...
and this I tend to do with facts...(accurate) historical examples...and common sense...I'm sorry if I insulted anyone...but I get angry when someone claims utter nonsense and them blames be for not considering it to be true...
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."