sorry....gravity alone just does not do that folks....
no way...not on this planet...not in this universe.
Textbook demolition. Are you kidding? Go look at those pictures i posted in the other thread. There was an enormous amount of damage done to buildings around the area. Not even close to textbook demolition.
Like i said in the other thread, this is my problem with the conspiracy people. You post this picture and refer to atomizing or it is proof of something much larger. It's a picture of the debris from one of the worlds tallest building collapsing. Nothing more, nothing less. Yet you pull this picture out as proof for textbook demolition. Give me a break.
Pensacola '94 New Orleans '95 Birmingham '98 New Orleans '00 New Orleans '03 Tampa '08 New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest Fenway Park '18 St. Louis '22
Textbook demolition. Are you kidding? Go look at those pictures i posted in the other thread. There was an enormous amount of damage done to buildings around the area. Not even close to textbook demolition.
Like i said in the other thread, this is my problem with the conspiracy people. You post this picture and refer to atomizing or it is proof of something much larger. It's a picture of the debris from one of the worlds tallest building collapsing. Nothing more, nothing less. Yet you pull this picture out as proof for textbook demolition. Give me a break.
because first: Bush(be he as he may) is not "any other extremist leader"
second: it makes absolutely no sense at all to harm your country in such an extraordinairy fashion to achieve your goals (whatever they may be)
third: pretty much all the "evidence" that is brought up by conspiracy theorists is a)unsourced b) taken from other conspiracy theories (some of them hundreds of years old, like Antisemitism) c) disproven or d) all the other three together...
I have yet to see a conspiracy theory that claims only the main (and true) facts of its thesis without throwing at least twice as much totally outragous claims in as well. Who has to use such an amount of deception to get its point across is absolutely worthless for anything, except entertainment(like the da vince code). If they are true and honest, there would be no need for deception...it's not that they are in a position of power where they have to hide things (not necessarily sinister things) (like governments).
It diverts people from real problems. Sure BUsh has done it...we just have to start a revolution and put the good guys in. and forget that it is clearly possible to eliminate terrorism, not by bombs...but by solving actual regional crisis with actual real people involved that have interests, motives, fears...living in situations with an individual historical and social background. By enganging problems in this manner individual solutions for the world's problems can be found (and I don't mean only terrorism), not by claiming the dark forces are behind it. The world is too complex to be controlled by a hundred, or even a million people...this is FACT...not opinion
rant over...
m.
Ok so let me get this straight there is no way in your mind that you can ever have people who do sinister things work for a government yet it is easy to see how so called extremists could do it?
Why do you think everyone who works in government is incapable of devising and carrying out actions that would hurt people?
Have you read operation northwoods? They decided not to carry it out but they devised the plan.
Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
Ok so let me get this straight there is no way in your mind that you can ever have people who do sinister things work for a government yet it is easy to see how so called extremists could do it?
Why do you think everyone who works in government is incapable of devising and carrying out actions that would hurt people?
Have you read operation northwoods? They decided not to carry it out but they devised the plan.
you are a reasonable fellow...and I don't mean this in a patronizing way...just in a nice way...but it's getting near my bedtime so I can't go into depth...
I just want to emphazise the last point again that I made in my rant...cause it is the most important to me...
individuals carry out everyday's actions, not forces, governments or any other entity for that matter...
there have been conspiracies...even sinister ones (can't think of any example right now)...formed by individuals on a local/regional level...to achieve specific shared individual goals...but never...and I mean never has there or will there ever be a WORLD CONSPIRACY or even one tenth of the world for that matter...a small group of people (say 1000) can't control the world, it's way too complex...you would need I guess 1 million people to even plan one year ahead...and with so many people, how would they coordinate? Again, you have to keep in mind that humans are supposedly "behind" it not Darth Vader...
Socialist governemts thought they can control their countries...and they had a vast amount of burocrats, unlimited coercive powers, and sheer brute force...yet they couldn't even plan their economy for 5 years ahead...people were starving, no goods in the shops, nothing worked...so please nobody tell me any group of people can stir the whole world towards their ends...NOT POSSIBLE...
really go on read chomsky, I read him too...
but also read some scolarly history...dry and boring, yet valuable...especially social and economic history...
there are actually facts...even in history and politics...not only opinions and interpretations, like some here like to claim...
and that's all I have to say...
don't even know why I'm doing this...
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
they will still have to persuade those people to kill themselves...for no reward...
Maybe Bin Laden is a FRAUD, and takes orders from the CIA? Now if Bin Laden told his loony toon squad to go fly planes into the World Trade Center, in the name of Jihad, why wouldn't they? As long as his people didn't know he was on the take, I'm sure they'd see no problem in killing themselves, and thousands of others in the name of their beliefs.
OR
Bin Laden is a completely separate entity that hates us, and we've been watching him. US intelligence picked up every detail about the attacks in advance from spying on Al-Qaeda for years on end, as they pieced their plan together. What if our government knew everything: The who, when, why, what, where... If only a select few people in the CIA knew the towers were going to get hit on the morning of the 11th of September, how hard would it really be to plant demolition explosives in there a few weeks in advance, and detonate them shortly after the planes hit? How hard would it be to conveniently have no fighter planes anywhere near ground zero, to prevent the second building from getting hit? It's a simple matter of scheduling. Was Pearl Harbor allowed to happen? Some say, DEFINITELY.
And you're dealing with the most blindly loyal people in the world when it comes to US intelligence. Of course these people think they're doing the greatest thing for the common good of everyone... After all, they are the best and brightest of the greatest country in the world! We're always the good guys, RIGHT?
CIA chief: JOHNSON! I have your next mission!
Johnson: Reporting for duty, Sir!
CIA chief: Now this may sound crazy, but..
Johnson: Nothing you say is crazy, Sir! Unless, of course, YOU say it's crazy, sir.
CIA chief: I like the way you think, Johnson. Now where was I? Oh yeah! Your next mission may sound crazy, but it is guaranteed to bring peace to the entire world, through a New World Order, where everyone gets to live like an American!
Johnson: I had a dream about that last night, Sir!
CIA chief: Sure ya did. Now what I need you to do, is plant some demolition explosives in the twin towers,-- they have to come down, about a half hour after some planes crash into them. You are a demolition expert, correct?
Johnson: Sir, yes sir! But, Sir, take down towers?
CIA chief: Yeah.... We really liked them, too, I know... BUT, only a few people will die, we'll put new towers there that will be wayyyyyy more badass, and 'terror-proof', and, we will have a world government that mimics ours here at home! We will finally achieve peace on earth, and finally, some order. Again, the cost: just a couple of buildings, and less than 10,000 American lives, and of course, a few Muslims, but who cares about them?-- and imagine, UTOPIA!"
Johnson: Consider it done, Sir!
I still don't know what to believe about what happened that day. Some things just don't add up. Building 7, for one. You have an "official" explanation from Popular Science: http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=5#wtc7
where there is no mention of the building being intentionally demolished, and then you have this video from a PBS special, where the owner of the World Trade Center, Larry Silverstein, admitting that he ordered the Fire Department to "Pull it": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WYdAJQV100
When were they going to plant the explosives in that building, with all the smoke, dust. It takes preparation to demolish a building of that size, even when rigged with explosives. Wouldn't the explosives had to be in the building already?
The Popular Science article is taken as gospel by so many. Why wouldn't Larry's story match up? Unless, we really don't know what he means by "pull it," but I think it's kind of obvious. That building DEFINITELY looked like it came down in controlled demolition form.
I don't understand any of it. It's frustrating. The official story isn't doing it for a lot of people-- I don't think it can be ruled out 100%, but with all the secrecy surrounding it, why should we believe it?
I haven't read this last page, but let me tell you this:
You are asking questions that are just impossible to find answers for. The only thing people can do is speculate and GUESS. But to come out and say that ANYONE WHO BELIEVES THIS WAS AN INSIDE JOB CAN BELIEVE ANYTHING is just pure nonsense. The fact of the matter is that there are just way too many unanswered questions and the only thing people can do is to try to piece information together and come up with theories.
a small group of people (say 1000) can't control the world, it's way too complex...
m.
I do believe that if you control the money supply, that you can control MANY MANY people. Prime example: The Federal Reserve. They screw with interest rates a tenth of a point, and the whole world goes batshit crazy-- happy, sad, scared, etc... In the meantime, the interest rates are all smoke and mirrors anyway. They straight robbed us.
I haven't read this last page, but let me tell you this:
You are asking questions that are just impossible to find answers for. The only thing people can do is speculate and GUESS. But to come out and say that ANYONE WHO BELIEVES THIS WAS AN INSIDE JOB CAN BELIEVE ANYTHING is just pure nonsense. The fact of the matter is that there are just way too many unanswered questions and the only thing people can do is to try to piece information together and come up with theories.
That's all.
please, go ahead: come up with theories.
but please don't fill them up with 50% garbage claims and say people can pick whatever they think is true...
and you should read the last page...I made some pretty profound points;)
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
9/11 was so important to the Bush admin. It put the country in a complete state of fear and let him get away with so much, like the PATRIOT ACT, war in Afghanistan, etc.
So let me see if I've got the talking points down:
1) The Bush Administration is, perhaps, the most inept administration in the history of the United States
and 2) That didn't stop them from pulling off the single greatest conspiracy in the history of conspiracies and getting away with it.
Oh-kay ...
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
I do believe that if you control the money supply, that you can control MANY MANY people. Prime example: The Federal Reserve. They screw with interest rates a tenth of a point, and the whole world goes batshit crazy-- happy, sad, scared, etc... In the meantime, the interest rates are all smoke and mirrors anyway. They straight robbed us.
again: no disrespect...but this is garbage...
every sane economist will tell you that a thing like the federal reserve is absolutely necessary for a modern economy (and that is not because they are "in" on it)...
as people are so fond of (demolition) textbooks here...try and get an economy textbook...
and I keep hearing about those international bankers...how come they allways end up being american...??? do they control me too? do they like Europeans so they strengthen the euro?
take some time and read this (non-scientific) website http://conspiracyscience.com/ for I can't put any history, sociology or economy text book in here...
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Why is it so hard to believe that a government agency could be the brains behind an attack, but yet so simple to see why any other extremist leader can easily persuade someone to kill themselves?
What I want to know is, why is it so hard to believe that an extremist group that has been threatening for nearly a decade to blow up something on american soil, and in fact has ALREADY TRIED TO BLOW UP THE WTC ONCE, actually pulled it off?
That's what's the most amazing part of all this.
It's like someone sends you a letter for 10 years saying he's going to burn down your house, even burns down the houses next door, finally sets your house ablaze and ADMITS TO IT -- and you say, "Eh, I probably just left the iron on."
I mean, seriously.
Couldn't it just be that UBL, you know, finally did on 9.11 what he had been threatening to do since the first Gulf War? Nah, it had to be the Bush Administration ... enacting a plot that began before he even took office. The diabolical genius!
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
Sometimes, just sometimes, Captain Obvious has to put on his tights and make an appearance. It's just like Fox News. If we allow stupidity to go unchallenged, it will spread, like a cancer, and consume what's left of our society.
Apparently it wasn’t obvious to him/her, since they said they have every right to say what they said….. You think other people’s opinions are stupidity? Says a lot…Your comments here are invaluable :rolleyes:
The sacred field in Shanksville is certainly much more than a "plaque in a field". It pays respects to some awesome heroes... one who happened to be a German citizen and one who was a Japanese citizen. The fact that you're not an American apparently doesn't give you the same perspective that it gives someone who is an American.
Well, IMO, the storyline that supports the ‘hero’ conspiracy theory is questionable at best…I didn’t intend my statement as disrespect to the victims that died above that field.
And the fact that you are American doesn’t mean you have the same perspective as your fellow citizens, nor does it make your opinions or research on the topic any more valid.
I criticize my government all of the time. Especially over pocket book issues. I don't ignore anything associated with 911. I fully believe that it wasn't a conspiracy.... bottomline. If other folks want to waste their time trying to find a conspiracy out of 911, then knock yourself out.
Someone has to ‘waste their time’ on it, because your governments investigation left out a lot of the most important questions about that day. Do you honestly think that all of the coincidences and anomalies that occurred simultaneously that day were just fluke and/or incompetence? Do you believe the money trail is unimportant? By saying ‘bottom line – no conspiracy’ (while stating that you DO question your government), implies to me that you are satisfied by the severely compromised and stonewalled commission report. Whatever floats yer boat.
To the OP - enough of this..... 'i'm not being arrogant', then demanding speculation, then shooting down that speculation as 50% garbage. wtf do you want from us? Your questions have been answered, just not in the way you want to hear, which is 'you're right, that makes no sense'. Funny that you accused someone else of the same thing.
because first: Bush(be he as he may) is not "any other extremist leader"
second: it makes absolutely no sense at all to harm your country in such an extraordinairy fashion to achieve your goals (whatever they may be)
third: pretty much all the "evidence" that is brought up by conspiracy theorists is a)unsourced b) taken from other conspiracy theories (some of them hundreds of years old, like Antisemitism) c) disproven or d) all the other three together...
I have yet to see a conspiracy theory that claims only the main (and true) facts of its thesis without throwing at least twice as much totally outragous claims in as well. Who has to use such an amount of deception to get its point across is absolutely worthless for anything, except entertainment(like the da vince code). If they are true and honest, there would be no need for deception...it's not that they are in a position of power where they have to hide things (not necessarily sinister things) (like governments).
It diverts people from real problems. Sure BUsh has done it...we just have to start a revolution and put the good guys in. and forget that it is clearly possible to eliminate terrorism, not by bombs...but by solving actual regional crisis with actual real people involved that have interests, motives, fears...living in situations with an individual historical and social background. By enganging problems in this manner individual solutions for the world's problems can be found (and I don't mean only terrorism), not by claiming the dark forces are behind it. The world is too complex to be controlled by a hundred, or even a million people...this is FACT...not opinion
To the OP - enough of this..... 'i'm not being arrogant', then demanding speculation, then shooting down that speculation as 50% garbage. wtf do you want from us? Your questions have been answered, just not in the way you want to hear, which is 'you're right, that makes no sense'. Funny that you accused someone else of the same thing.
actually...I have waited for this one...
guess I'm disqualified...
Bush is Hitler
WTC Attack=Reichstag Fire
WTC collapse=textbook detonation
Federal Reserve->controlls American (the world)
in the end...it's all opinion right...
if you really have a look at what people claimed in this threat alone: 50% garbage is a very moderate estimate...and that is not because I want to be right or because I'm arrogant, but because it denies facts, economic logic, and any understanding of social and political processes...
please excuse I got a little rougher...it's approaching 1am here...
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
you are a reasonable fellow...and I don't mean this in a patronizing way...just in a nice way...but it's getting near my bedtime so I can't go into depth...
I just want to emphazise the last point again that I made in my rant...cause it is the most important to me...
individuals carry out everyday's actions, not forces, governments or any other entity for that matter...
there have been conspiracies...even sinister ones (can't think of any example right now)...formed by individuals on a local/regional level...to achieve specific shared individual goals...but never...and I mean never has there or will there ever be a WORLD CONSPIRACY or even one tenth of the world for that matter...a small group of people (say 1000) can't control the world, it's way too complex...you would need I guess 1 million people to even plan one year ahead...and with so many people, how would they coordinate? Again, you have to keep in mind that humans are supposedly "behind" it not Darth Vader...
Socialist governemts thought they can control their countries...and they had a vast amount of burocrats, unlimited coercive powers, and sheer brute force...yet they couldn't even plan their economy for 5 years ahead...people were starving, no goods in the shops, nothing worked...so please nobody tell me any group of people can stir the whole world towards their ends...NOT POSSIBLE...
really go on read chomsky, I read him too...
but also read some scolarly history...dry and boring, yet valuable...especially social and economic history...
there are actually facts...even in history and politics...not only opinions and interpretations, like some here like to claim...
and that's all I have to say...
don't even know why I'm doing this...
m.
Ok even though i never spoke about a global conspiracy, i am not sure you telling me that
The world is too complex to be controlled by a hundred, or even a million people...this is FACT...not opinion
Is a really reasoned argument for what you say to be true.
Just like when people say
there is no way that bush could have been behind the attacks because i cannot believe it
is a reasoned argument for the US government not to carry out something.
Also i would like to know your opinion on operation northwoods as this is fact not fiction.
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
To the OP - enough of this..... 'i'm not being arrogant', then demanding speculation, then shooting down that speculation as 50% garbage. wtf do you want from us? Your questions have been answered, just not in the way you want to hear, which is 'you're right, that makes no sense'. Funny that you accused someone else of the same thing.
Questions cannot be answered if factually and historically inaccurate. They still remain.
What I want to know is, why is it so hard to believe that an extremist group that has been threatening for nearly a decade to blow up something on american soil, and in fact has ALREADY TRIED TO BLOW UP THE WTC ONCE, actually pulled it off?
It's not so hard to believe that extremist groups carry out attacks just as it is not hard to believe that government agencys can carry out attacks to.
That's what's the most amazing part of all this.
It's like someone sends you a letter for 10 years saying he's going to burn down your house, even burns down the houses next door, finally sets your house ablaze and ADMITS TO IT -- and you say, "Eh, I probably just left the iron on."
I mean, seriously.
Couldn't it just be that UBL, you know, finally did on 9.11 what he had been threatening to do since the first Gulf War? Nah, it had to be the Bush Administration ... enacting a plot that began before he even took office. The diabolical genius!
Come on man those videos of Osama admitting to the bombing are dodgy to say the least.
Anyway you and i just see things differently, no big deal we are all different, and the world would be a boring place blah blah blah.
Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
Ok even though i never spoke about a global conspiracy
call it large scale then:)
really, this is not being a coward...
but I can't go on like that...
i am way to tired...
I'll just get profane...;)
a few last things(again;)):
I am totally against Bush and the US' current policy
I am not to argue that people should question official stories about anything for that matter...
I believe people in governments can be criminal...
but I also don't believe, and I think this is widely supported by actual facts, that 911 was not an inside job...
I am sceptical of getting information from blogs and the like
I am a strong defender of the scientific method (takes time)
and I am tired...
some people seem to try and be very important and shocking here as they bring news like economy melt down, Obama enslaves people, Isreal commits genocide...get a grip on yourselves people...
there are problems, yes...but they mostly can be solved...but not by blaming THE MAN for them...
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
So let me see if I've got the talking points down:
1) The Bush Administration is, perhaps, the most inept administration in the history of the United States
and 2) That didn't stop them from pulling off the single greatest conspiracy in the history of conspiracies and getting away with it.
Oh-kay ...
Ok i have a question?
When governments do thing bad things is them who actually sets it up or the CIA? Because i am pretty sure the president just sits there looking dumb and other people actually run things for him.
Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
It's not so hard to believe that extremist groups carry out attacks just as it is not hard to believe that government agencys can carry out attacks to.
on their own people...actually it is way harder to believe...
we are not talking about a fascist government here...
and not about plans to murder people...but actually the single most outragous attack ever carried out...
yes, contrary to some people's believes (not yours I assume) Arab people are able to carry out complex schemes...not only americans...even people IN A CAVE(to qoute a qoute from zeitgeist) with box cutters can cause damage...
it might hurt some people's self esteem...still...that's the way it is...
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
I think it's an interesting experiment what you're trying to do.
I am also curious as to why people more easily believe that the Bush administration was behind 9/11 rather than Obama and fundamentalist jihadists.
There was already a precedent in the World Trade Centre in the 90s; Obama from CIA-puppet as a mujaddin against Soviet Russia in the Afghan war to a proponent of jihad and the caliphate... not to mention the complexity of it when compared to ineffective handling of the Katrina aftermath. Sure, different priorities, saving poor people from drowning and dispossession against increasing power and wealth through war and suppression of civic liberties, but as you pointed out it's way too complex. Not to mention, co-opting hundreds of people in the plot against their own nation... how can you buy all their silence?
on their own people...actually it is way harder to believe...
we are not talking about a fascist government here...
and not about plans to murder people...but actually the single most outragous attack ever carried out...
yes, contrary to some people's believes (not yours I assume) Arab people are able to carry out complex schemes...not only americans...even people IN A CAVE(to qoute a qoute from zeitgeist) with box cutters can cause damage...
it might hurt some people's self esteem...still...that's the way it is...
m.
Interesting take... the self-esteem, self-importance issue: easier to believe that America is still the strongest and most powerful even if it carries out such complex acts against their own people, rather than some "cavemen".
And yes, historically I also cannot point to another precedent of a government, state unleashing large-scale to its own people. It's always been against the enemy, real or perceived.
Even fascist state, only focused on repressions of minorities of their populations (political opponents, enemies of the states for whatever reasons, etc... not just random civilians)
I'm getting more and more sarcastic here, but some might probably tell you that the media disinforms people and consumer society keeps them saturized and quiet...
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Even fascist state, only focused on repressions of minorities of their populations (political opponents, enemies of the states for whatever reasons, etc... not just random civilians)
actually I've read some thesis that Fascists in particular have to cater to their people (the majority)...as they have no other legimatization than the claim that they are good for the country...a hundred years of brutal violence and suppression against the MAJORITY of the people has never accured in history...especially dictators tend to at least try to please the main group of society...cause they live in constant fear of an overthrow (see e.g. Stalin)...
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
actually, no...
it is a fact that the world is too complex to be controlled by a single entity made up of humans...
every government that ever tried to even control the ECONOMY OF ITS OWN COUNTRY (mainly socialist countries) failed miserably in doing so...even thogh they had all measure available to them that are helpfull in achieving this goal: a vast apparatus for burocracy, strong coercion, brute force...
can't be done...not because I happen to believe it or because I wish it to be true...but because it has been proven at least a dozen times...
only for countries, not the world...I give you that...
it is not possible for a group of people(of whatever size) to control the world and make things happen as they please...
people control the world, yes...ALL people...
and that is quite a positive outlook...
I go with the scientific method: you make a claim->you have to proof it; then I check if your proof is valid...don't have to make a counterclaim really...
plus: proving something doesn't mean, that you make a claim, and no one can disprove it...everybody can do that...religions do it...
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
I am not a follower of Alex Jones or any of those characters. I am also not an expert in physics, and when I hear physicists explain physics, my brain turns to mush. But I do think that if the towers were brought down with explosives planted inside, then you would think a whole lot of physicists would have figured that out by now. So far, the only physicist I know who thinks explosives were used in the towers is Stephen Jones, a professor at Brigham Young University. I mean no one in their right mind is going to point to Brigham Young as one of the shining stars of the intelligencia. His only major accomplishment was having more than 50 wives. Most of the 9/11 celebrities inspire very little or no confidence in me. Even David Ray Griffin, who is very calm and eloquent, is still primarily a Christian minister, so it's evident he already believes in a myth, which makes it harder for me to take him seriously.
But there is one guy, Michael Ruppert, who's way of thinking I am intrigued by and I think he's on the right path.
Basically, he think the 'controlled demotion of the towers' and 'no plane hitting the Pentagon' theories are bunk. He thinks instead that Bush and his co-conspirators did nothing to stop the attacks (why did NORAD stand down?) and may have given financial assistance and directives to Bin Laden and his minions. I'm not sure if he thinks Alex Jones, the Loose Change guys, and their ilk are purposely spreading disinformation and actually working for the bad guys, but that theory is out there too. I don't know though... I mean, how many people could possibly be involved? It can't be too many, can it? Or someone would expose it, whether willingly or unwittingly, right? I mean, can all of the major media figureheads really be in on this? It's hard to believe. How many members of the government would have to be involved?
But back to Ruppert and the LIHOP (Let it Happen on Purpose) theory... this is the only theory I think is possible. And there is evidence out there which leads me to consider it as a strong possibility. Consider than John O'Neill, who was the CIA's main guy on Al-Qaida gave the Bush administration warnings about a likely terrorist attack from Bin Laden... but the Bush administration ignored his warnings, pushed him out of the CIA and then he ends up becoming head of security at the World Trade Center, where on 9/11, he died. Consider this about George W Bush's brother Marvin: "from 1993 until June 2000, he was on the board of directors of the Sterling, Virginia company Stratesec (formerly known as Securacom)which had contracts to provide security for United Airlines, Dulles International Airport, and the World Trade Center." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_P._Bush) I mean, fuck, that's weird. Consider that George W. Bush is an insensitive asshole. Sorry, that's cheesy... but fuck... it's relevant! I mean, there is plenty reason to think that Bush, Cheney and Co. are completely capable of doing what most people think FDR did during Pearl Harbor... instigate a terrorist attack (yes, FDR pissed off the Japanese in Indonesia, don't ya know?) and then launch a war they were clearly itchin' to start. So I'm skeptical of these motherfuckers. How can I not be? They were already guilty of criminal activity before 9/11. They were already guilty of serving corporate interests, no matter who dies. They were already murderers. 9/11, if they had a role, would actually be one of their least heinous crimes.
And yes, I of course believe that there are plenty of muslim extremists who would love to be involved in an attack like 9/11. And despite the insanity of their religious convictions, they have some legitimate grievances. Our government, no matter what party is in power, has always assisted tyrannical governments in the middle east who provide our country with oil. It started when FDR formed an alliance with Saudi Arabia, and it continued on as the Feds deposed a democratically elected President in Iran, in favor of the royal Shah, which led to the backlash that spawned the Islamic Revolution. The CIA later trained Osama bin Laden and the mujahadeen in Afghanistan to help overthrow the socialist regime. Under the socialists, women went to school, and under the Taliban, who we supported all the way up until 2001 (read about Colin Powell giving millions of dollars to them in May of 2001 I believe)... well we all know how women fared under that regime. Oh, and Taliban members visted Bush while he was the Governor of Texas! This is all in the public record folks!!! Do some research... I'm getting tired of doing it for you!!!!
Back to Michael Ruppert. Unlike Alex Jones, who has made a good living with his shtick.... Mr. Ruppert was harassed, given "malicious" threats, and went to live in exile in Venezuela! he recently returned to the U.S. but has kept a low profile. So that's suspicious.
Comments
Textbook demolition. Are you kidding? Go look at those pictures i posted in the other thread. There was an enormous amount of damage done to buildings around the area. Not even close to textbook demolition.
Like i said in the other thread, this is my problem with the conspiracy people. You post this picture and refer to atomizing or it is proof of something much larger. It's a picture of the debris from one of the worlds tallest building collapsing. Nothing more, nothing less. Yet you pull this picture out as proof for textbook demolition. Give me a break.
http://www.layscience.net/?q=node/124
Pensacola '94
New Orleans '95
Birmingham '98
New Orleans '00
New Orleans '03
Tampa '08
New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest
New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest
Fenway Park '18
St. Louis '22
you obvioulsy don't care too much...
have you actually ever tried to get any information about 911 from any non-conspiracy source...
cause I tell you something: a CLOSED world view is quite something to get rid of...
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
the irony is: he uses websites to prove his point, that actually disprove his point...since he used the same source you did...
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Ok so let me get this straight there is no way in your mind that you can ever have people who do sinister things work for a government yet it is easy to see how so called extremists could do it?
Why do you think everyone who works in government is incapable of devising and carrying out actions that would hurt people?
Have you read operation northwoods? They decided not to carry it out but they devised the plan.
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
you are a reasonable fellow...and I don't mean this in a patronizing way...just in a nice way...but it's getting near my bedtime so I can't go into depth...
I just want to emphazise the last point again that I made in my rant...cause it is the most important to me...
individuals carry out everyday's actions, not forces, governments or any other entity for that matter...
there have been conspiracies...even sinister ones (can't think of any example right now)...formed by individuals on a local/regional level...to achieve specific shared individual goals...but never...and I mean never has there or will there ever be a WORLD CONSPIRACY or even one tenth of the world for that matter...a small group of people (say 1000) can't control the world, it's way too complex...you would need I guess 1 million people to even plan one year ahead...and with so many people, how would they coordinate? Again, you have to keep in mind that humans are supposedly "behind" it not Darth Vader...
Socialist governemts thought they can control their countries...and they had a vast amount of burocrats, unlimited coercive powers, and sheer brute force...yet they couldn't even plan their economy for 5 years ahead...people were starving, no goods in the shops, nothing worked...so please nobody tell me any group of people can stir the whole world towards their ends...NOT POSSIBLE...
really go on read chomsky, I read him too...
but also read some scolarly history...dry and boring, yet valuable...especially social and economic history...
there are actually facts...even in history and politics...not only opinions and interpretations, like some here like to claim...
and that's all I have to say...
don't even know why I'm doing this...
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Maybe Bin Laden is a FRAUD, and takes orders from the CIA? Now if Bin Laden told his loony toon squad to go fly planes into the World Trade Center, in the name of Jihad, why wouldn't they? As long as his people didn't know he was on the take, I'm sure they'd see no problem in killing themselves, and thousands of others in the name of their beliefs.
OR
Bin Laden is a completely separate entity that hates us, and we've been watching him. US intelligence picked up every detail about the attacks in advance from spying on Al-Qaeda for years on end, as they pieced their plan together. What if our government knew everything: The who, when, why, what, where... If only a select few people in the CIA knew the towers were going to get hit on the morning of the 11th of September, how hard would it really be to plant demolition explosives in there a few weeks in advance, and detonate them shortly after the planes hit? How hard would it be to conveniently have no fighter planes anywhere near ground zero, to prevent the second building from getting hit? It's a simple matter of scheduling. Was Pearl Harbor allowed to happen? Some say, DEFINITELY.
And you're dealing with the most blindly loyal people in the world when it comes to US intelligence. Of course these people think they're doing the greatest thing for the common good of everyone... After all, they are the best and brightest of the greatest country in the world! We're always the good guys, RIGHT?
CIA chief: JOHNSON! I have your next mission!
Johnson: Reporting for duty, Sir!
CIA chief: Now this may sound crazy, but..
Johnson: Nothing you say is crazy, Sir! Unless, of course, YOU say it's crazy, sir.
CIA chief: I like the way you think, Johnson. Now where was I? Oh yeah! Your next mission may sound crazy, but it is guaranteed to bring peace to the entire world, through a New World Order, where everyone gets to live like an American!
Johnson: I had a dream about that last night, Sir!
CIA chief: Sure ya did. Now what I need you to do, is plant some demolition explosives in the twin towers,-- they have to come down, about a half hour after some planes crash into them. You are a demolition expert, correct?
Johnson: Sir, yes sir! But, Sir, take down towers?
CIA chief: Yeah.... We really liked them, too, I know... BUT, only a few people will die, we'll put new towers there that will be wayyyyyy more badass, and 'terror-proof', and, we will have a world government that mimics ours here at home! We will finally achieve peace on earth, and finally, some order. Again, the cost: just a couple of buildings, and less than 10,000 American lives, and of course, a few Muslims, but who cares about them?-- and imagine, UTOPIA!"
Johnson: Consider it done, Sir!
I still don't know what to believe about what happened that day. Some things just don't add up. Building 7, for one. You have an "official" explanation from Popular Science: http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=5#wtc7
where there is no mention of the building being intentionally demolished, and then you have this video from a PBS special, where the owner of the World Trade Center, Larry Silverstein, admitting that he ordered the Fire Department to "Pull it": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WYdAJQV100
When were they going to plant the explosives in that building, with all the smoke, dust. It takes preparation to demolish a building of that size, even when rigged with explosives. Wouldn't the explosives had to be in the building already?
The Popular Science article is taken as gospel by so many. Why wouldn't Larry's story match up? Unless, we really don't know what he means by "pull it," but I think it's kind of obvious. That building DEFINITELY looked like it came down in controlled demolition form.
I don't understand any of it. It's frustrating. The official story isn't doing it for a lot of people-- I don't think it can be ruled out 100%, but with all the secrecy surrounding it, why should we believe it?
Just some answers, please. That's all we want.
I haven't read this last page, but let me tell you this:
You are asking questions that are just impossible to find answers for. The only thing people can do is speculate and GUESS. But to come out and say that ANYONE WHO BELIEVES THIS WAS AN INSIDE JOB CAN BELIEVE ANYTHING is just pure nonsense. The fact of the matter is that there are just way too many unanswered questions and the only thing people can do is to try to piece information together and come up with theories.
That's all.
I do believe that if you control the money supply, that you can control MANY MANY people. Prime example: The Federal Reserve. They screw with interest rates a tenth of a point, and the whole world goes batshit crazy-- happy, sad, scared, etc... In the meantime, the interest rates are all smoke and mirrors anyway. They straight robbed us.
please, go ahead: come up with theories.
but please don't fill them up with 50% garbage claims and say people can pick whatever they think is true...
and you should read the last page...I made some pretty profound points;)
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
So let me see if I've got the talking points down:
1) The Bush Administration is, perhaps, the most inept administration in the history of the United States
and 2) That didn't stop them from pulling off the single greatest conspiracy in the history of conspiracies and getting away with it.
Oh-kay ...
for the least they could possibly do
again: no disrespect...but this is garbage...
every sane economist will tell you that a thing like the federal reserve is absolutely necessary for a modern economy (and that is not because they are "in" on it)...
as people are so fond of (demolition) textbooks here...try and get an economy textbook...
and I keep hearing about those international bankers...how come they allways end up being american...??? do they control me too? do they like Europeans so they strengthen the euro?
take some time and read this (non-scientific) website
http://conspiracyscience.com/ for I can't put any history, sociology or economy text book in here...
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
for the least they could possibly do
What I want to know is, why is it so hard to believe that an extremist group that has been threatening for nearly a decade to blow up something on american soil, and in fact has ALREADY TRIED TO BLOW UP THE WTC ONCE, actually pulled it off?
That's what's the most amazing part of all this.
It's like someone sends you a letter for 10 years saying he's going to burn down your house, even burns down the houses next door, finally sets your house ablaze and ADMITS TO IT -- and you say, "Eh, I probably just left the iron on."
I mean, seriously.
Couldn't it just be that UBL, you know, finally did on 9.11 what he had been threatening to do since the first Gulf War? Nah, it had to be the Bush Administration ... enacting a plot that began before he even took office. The diabolical genius!
for the least they could possibly do
Well, IMO, the storyline that supports the ‘hero’ conspiracy theory is questionable at best…I didn’t intend my statement as disrespect to the victims that died above that field.
And the fact that you are American doesn’t mean you have the same perspective as your fellow citizens, nor does it make your opinions or research on the topic any more valid.
Someone has to ‘waste their time’ on it, because your governments investigation left out a lot of the most important questions about that day. Do you honestly think that all of the coincidences and anomalies that occurred simultaneously that day were just fluke and/or incompetence? Do you believe the money trail is unimportant? By saying ‘bottom line – no conspiracy’ (while stating that you DO question your government), implies to me that you are satisfied by the severely compromised and stonewalled commission report. Whatever floats yer boat.
To the OP - enough of this..... 'i'm not being arrogant', then demanding speculation, then shooting down that speculation as 50% garbage. wtf do you want from us? Your questions have been answered, just not in the way you want to hear, which is 'you're right, that makes no sense'. Funny that you accused someone else of the same thing.
Totally agree
actually...I have waited for this one...
guess I'm disqualified...
Bush is Hitler
WTC Attack=Reichstag Fire
WTC collapse=textbook detonation
Federal Reserve->controlls American (the world)
in the end...it's all opinion right...
if you really have a look at what people claimed in this threat alone: 50% garbage is a very moderate estimate...and that is not because I want to be right or because I'm arrogant, but because it denies facts, economic logic, and any understanding of social and political processes...
please excuse I got a little rougher...it's approaching 1am here...
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Ok even though i never spoke about a global conspiracy, i am not sure you telling me that
Is a really reasoned argument for what you say to be true.
Just like when people say
is a reasoned argument for the US government not to carry out something.
Also i would like to know your opinion on operation northwoods as this is fact not fiction.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
oh, there you are:)
anything "sober" to add?;)
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Questions cannot be answered if factually and historically inaccurate. They still remain.
It's not so hard to believe that extremist groups carry out attacks just as it is not hard to believe that government agencys can carry out attacks to.
Come on man those videos of Osama admitting to the bombing are dodgy to say the least.
Anyway you and i just see things differently, no big deal we are all different, and the world would be a boring place blah blah blah.
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
call it large scale then:)
really, this is not being a coward...
but I can't go on like that...
i am way to tired...
I'll just get profane...;)
a few last things(again;)):
I am totally against Bush and the US' current policy
I am not to argue that people should question official stories about anything for that matter...
I believe people in governments can be criminal...
but I also don't believe, and I think this is widely supported by actual facts, that 911 was not an inside job...
I am sceptical of getting information from blogs and the like
I am a strong defender of the scientific method (takes time)
and I am tired...
some people seem to try and be very important and shocking here as they bring news like economy melt down, Obama enslaves people, Isreal commits genocide...get a grip on yourselves people...
there are problems, yes...but they mostly can be solved...but not by blaming THE MAN for them...
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Ok i have a question?
When governments do thing bad things is them who actually sets it up or the CIA? Because i am pretty sure the president just sits there looking dumb and other people actually run things for him.
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
on their own people...actually it is way harder to believe...
we are not talking about a fascist government here...
and not about plans to murder people...but actually the single most outragous attack ever carried out...
yes, contrary to some people's believes (not yours I assume) Arab people are able to carry out complex schemes...not only americans...even people IN A CAVE(to qoute a qoute from zeitgeist) with box cutters can cause damage...
it might hurt some people's self esteem...still...that's the way it is...
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
I think it's an interesting experiment what you're trying to do.
I am also curious as to why people more easily believe that the Bush administration was behind 9/11 rather than Obama and fundamentalist jihadists.
There was already a precedent in the World Trade Centre in the 90s; Obama from CIA-puppet as a mujaddin against Soviet Russia in the Afghan war to a proponent of jihad and the caliphate... not to mention the complexity of it when compared to ineffective handling of the Katrina aftermath. Sure, different priorities, saving poor people from drowning and dispossession against increasing power and wealth through war and suppression of civic liberties, but as you pointed out it's way too complex. Not to mention, co-opting hundreds of people in the plot against their own nation... how can you buy all their silence?
Interesting take... the self-esteem, self-importance issue: easier to believe that America is still the strongest and most powerful even if it carries out such complex acts against their own people, rather than some "cavemen".
And yes, historically I also cannot point to another precedent of a government, state unleashing large-scale to its own people. It's always been against the enemy, real or perceived.
Even fascist state, only focused on repressions of minorities of their populations (political opponents, enemies of the states for whatever reasons, etc... not just random civilians)
you think Obama was behind it???;)
I think this forum has left its mark...;)
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
I'm getting more and more sarcastic here, but some might probably tell you that the media disinforms people and consumer society keeps them saturized and quiet...
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
actually I've read some thesis that Fascists in particular have to cater to their people (the majority)...as they have no other legimatization than the claim that they are good for the country...a hundred years of brutal violence and suppression against the MAJORITY of the people has never accured in history...especially dictators tend to at least try to please the main group of society...cause they live in constant fear of an overthrow (see e.g. Stalin)...
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
actually, no...
it is a fact that the world is too complex to be controlled by a single entity made up of humans...
every government that ever tried to even control the ECONOMY OF ITS OWN COUNTRY (mainly socialist countries) failed miserably in doing so...even thogh they had all measure available to them that are helpfull in achieving this goal: a vast apparatus for burocracy, strong coercion, brute force...
can't be done...not because I happen to believe it or because I wish it to be true...but because it has been proven at least a dozen times...
only for countries, not the world...I give you that...
it is not possible for a group of people(of whatever size) to control the world and make things happen as they please...
people control the world, yes...ALL people...
and that is quite a positive outlook...
I go with the scientific method: you make a claim->you have to proof it; then I check if your proof is valid...don't have to make a counterclaim really...
plus: proving something doesn't mean, that you make a claim, and no one can disprove it...everybody can do that...religions do it...
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
But there is one guy, Michael Ruppert, who's way of thinking I am intrigued by and I think he's on the right path.
Shit, I just found his book Crossing the Rubicon online:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ezyLJrAu1SIC&dq=crossing+the+rubicon&pg=PP1&ots=gfrUdH0AjC&sig=9ZWrgOxGcI2T2a-MGyHeYBfEp5I&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPP1,M1
I'm going to have to read this later!
Basically, he think the 'controlled demotion of the towers' and 'no plane hitting the Pentagon' theories are bunk. He thinks instead that Bush and his co-conspirators did nothing to stop the attacks (why did NORAD stand down?) and may have given financial assistance and directives to Bin Laden and his minions. I'm not sure if he thinks Alex Jones, the Loose Change guys, and their ilk are purposely spreading disinformation and actually working for the bad guys, but that theory is out there too. I don't know though... I mean, how many people could possibly be involved? It can't be too many, can it? Or someone would expose it, whether willingly or unwittingly, right? I mean, can all of the major media figureheads really be in on this? It's hard to believe. How many members of the government would have to be involved?
But back to Ruppert and the LIHOP (Let it Happen on Purpose) theory... this is the only theory I think is possible. And there is evidence out there which leads me to consider it as a strong possibility. Consider than John O'Neill, who was the CIA's main guy on Al-Qaida gave the Bush administration warnings about a likely terrorist attack from Bin Laden... but the Bush administration ignored his warnings, pushed him out of the CIA and then he ends up becoming head of security at the World Trade Center, where on 9/11, he died. Consider this about George W Bush's brother Marvin: "from 1993 until June 2000, he was on the board of directors of the Sterling, Virginia company Stratesec (formerly known as Securacom)which had contracts to provide security for United Airlines, Dulles International Airport, and the World Trade Center." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_P._Bush) I mean, fuck, that's weird. Consider that George W. Bush is an insensitive asshole. Sorry, that's cheesy... but fuck... it's relevant! I mean, there is plenty reason to think that Bush, Cheney and Co. are completely capable of doing what most people think FDR did during Pearl Harbor... instigate a terrorist attack (yes, FDR pissed off the Japanese in Indonesia, don't ya know?) and then launch a war they were clearly itchin' to start. So I'm skeptical of these motherfuckers. How can I not be? They were already guilty of criminal activity before 9/11. They were already guilty of serving corporate interests, no matter who dies. They were already murderers. 9/11, if they had a role, would actually be one of their least heinous crimes.
And yes, I of course believe that there are plenty of muslim extremists who would love to be involved in an attack like 9/11. And despite the insanity of their religious convictions, they have some legitimate grievances. Our government, no matter what party is in power, has always assisted tyrannical governments in the middle east who provide our country with oil. It started when FDR formed an alliance with Saudi Arabia, and it continued on as the Feds deposed a democratically elected President in Iran, in favor of the royal Shah, which led to the backlash that spawned the Islamic Revolution. The CIA later trained Osama bin Laden and the mujahadeen in Afghanistan to help overthrow the socialist regime. Under the socialists, women went to school, and under the Taliban, who we supported all the way up until 2001 (read about Colin Powell giving millions of dollars to them in May of 2001 I believe)... well we all know how women fared under that regime. Oh, and Taliban members visted Bush while he was the Governor of Texas! This is all in the public record folks!!! Do some research... I'm getting tired of doing it for you!!!!
Back to Michael Ruppert. Unlike Alex Jones, who has made a good living with his shtick.... Mr. Ruppert was harassed, given "malicious" threats, and went to live in exile in Venezuela! he recently returned to the U.S. but has kept a low profile. So that's suspicious.
And there's more to say, but dammit, I'm tired.