Also, why the fuck can't Jewish kids just suck it up and live with the fact that when they step on their school bus in the morning, there's a chance some Jihadist will blow them all up into ground meat? C'mon Jews, it isn't that bad having mortars launched into your homes from Gaza and southern Lebanon. Get a freaking backbone!
This is what happens when your government insists on perpetuating a crime against humanity. Those on the receiving end of this crime seek to defend themselves/retaliate with any means at their disposal.
Michael Neumann - The Case Against Israel
"We find it's low-tech attacks on individuals more distasteful than high-tech attacks, even if they are sure to harm individuals just as much. A beheading disgusts us; not so a massive air assault which will have the side effect of blowing the heads off a few children. That both the attackers and ourselves fully expect such 'collateral damage' doesn't seem to matter. This indeed is why we witness the spectacular exercise in obliviousness that sees the apostles of Western civilization berating 'the Arabs' or Islam for it's brutality. That Western civilization recently produced King Leopold's Congo genocide, Hiroshima, the concentration camps, and two catastrophic world wars should make us think twice before we see any particular evil in the Palestinian response."
The reason why is because the overwhelming majority of Americans condemn the KKK today, while a substantial number of Muslims (in the millions) claim that suicide bombing is a legitimate tactic. The number of KKK members compared to the number of radical Jihadists in ridiculous.
You think most muslims support the extremists? :eek: far from it. Islam is as peaceful a religion as any other religion... but, like with any other religion, there are those who use their book to support their actions. Most Muslims just want to live their life as they see fit too... I disagree with quite a lot of their customs but I respect their right to live as they see fit.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I never stated that all Israelis are good, decent, and innocent. Of course, both sides have done wrong. In my opinion, and I've stated why many times here, peace can only be achieved when/if radical muslims accept that Israel/Jewish state has a right to exist. Until that happens, which won't be in my lifetime, progress will never occur.
Judging from your posts, I'm not sure you WANT either peace or progress. Many of us have suggested solutions... all you do is blast radical islam and have a very one sided view of the entire thing. NONE of us are defending suicide bombers... yet you defend the bombing of innocent Palestinians as 'collateral damage' For you, it's all or nothing... and no conflict of this kind will be resolved in that way... there HAS to be compromise on both sides.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I have a hard time sympathizing with people who hang posters of suicide bombers on their streets. It's difficult for me to sympathize with people who consider all Jews as swine. I have a hard time feeling compassion for people who teach their kids from the earliest of ages that all non-muslims are not worthy of life, and to martyr yourself while killing innocents is an honorable goal.
But you're perfectly o.k with Israeli F16's firing missiles into crowds of civilians in a refugee camp? And with Israeli tanks running over and crushing a 60 year old man in a wheelchair? And Israeli snipers shooting 6 year old children in the head for throwing stones at an armoured vehicle? And the bulldozing of 20,000 homes?
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/child_41304.html
The Israeli occupation army and paramilitary Jewish settlers have killed 545 Palestinian children and minors since the outbreak of the al-Aqsa Intifada in September 2000.
Among these victims, 266 children were 14 or younger while the ages of the remaining 279 ranged from 15 to 18. Moreover, as many as 20,000 Palestinian children were injured, with nearly 1500 sustaining life-long disabilities.
The total number of Palestinians killed by Israel during the current Intifada is around 2700, the vast majority of them civilians.
One of the latest Palestinian children to be killed by the Israeli army was six-year-old Khalid Mahir Walwil from the Balata refugee camp near Nablus.
He was shot in the back as he turned away from the window on the second floor of his house.
Khalid had reportedly stayed at home that day, too frightened to go to school because Israeli soldiers were “operating” in the area.'
Of course I could go on all day posting hundreds of links to pages which describe countless Israeli war crimes, random atrocities, and deliberate targeting of civilians. If you need me to do so, then I'll gladly oblige.
There was a great chance to attain a peaceful settlement in the late 90s, but good old Yasser Arafat wasn't interested in peace.
The above statement is a lie.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14120.htm
'...is there a possible political settlement today? Has there been one for the last 25 years? Is it supported by the entire world, including the majority of the American people? The answer to that question is yes. There is a political settlement that has been supported by virtually the entire world, including the Arab states, the PLO, Europe, Eastern Europe, Canada…
Solomon: Didn't Barak put that on the table?
Chomsky: No, he did not!
Solomon: He did not?
Chomsky: What was also supported by the majority of the American people, has just been reiterated by Saudi Arabia. The U.S. has unilaterally blocked it for 25 years. What Barak put on the table, the population doesn't know this, because people like the Western media in Canada in the United States don't tell them. Like, you can check and see how often, you for example, and others, have reported what I just said. Don't bother checking. The answer is zero.
The Barak proposal in Camp David, the Barak-Clinton proposal, in the United States, I didn't check the Canadian media, in the United States you cannot find a map, which is the most important thing of course, check in Canada, see if you can find a map. You go to Israel, you can find a map, you go to scholarly sources, you can find a map. Here's what you find when you look at a map: You find that this generous, magnanimous proposal provided Israel with a salient east of Jerusalem, which was established primarily by the Labor government, in order to bisect the West Bank. That salient goes almost to Jericho, breaks the West Bank into two cantons, then there's a second salient to the North, going to the Israeli settlement of Ariel, which bisects the Northern part into two cantons.
So, we've got three cantons in the West Bank, virtually separated. All three of them are separated from a small area of East Jerusalem which is the center of Palestinian commercial and cultural life and of communications. So you have four cantons, all separated from the West, from Gaza, so that's five cantons, all surrounded by Israeli settlements, infrastructure, development and so on, which also incidentally guarantee Israel control of the water resources.
This does not rise to the level of South Africa 40 years ago when South Africa established the Bantustans. That's the generous, magnanimous offer. And there's a good reason why maps weren't shown. Because as soon as you look at a map, you see it.
Solomon: All right, but let me just say, Arafat didn't even bother putting a counter-proposal on the table.
Chomsky: Oh, that's not true.
Solomon: They negotiated that afterwards.
Chomsky: That's not true.
Solomon: I guess my question is, if they don't continue to negotiate -
Chomsky: They did. That's false.
Solomon: That's false?
Chomsky: Not only is it false, but not a single participant in the meetings says it. That's a media fabrication . . .
Solomon: That Arafat didn't put a counter-proposal . . .
Chomsky: Yeah, they had a proposal. They proposed the international consensus, which has been accepted by the entire world, the Arab states, the PLO. They proposed a settlement which is in accordance with an overwhelming international consensus, and is blocked by the United States.
Solomon: If you don't talk -
Chomsky: Yeah, they did talk. They talked. They proposed that.
Solomon: Once they walked out of Camp David,
Chomsky: They didn't walk out of Camp David . . .
Solomon: Both camps . . .
Chomsky: No, no, both sides walked out of Camp David.
Solomon: All right, once Camp David disbands, the radicals take over the process, my question is, how do . . .
Chomsky: No, no, the radicals didn't take over the process.
Solomon: You don't think that the Sharon, the right-wing Israeli . . .
Chomsky: No, Barak stayed in power for months. Barak cancelled it. That's how it ended.
Solomon: OK. The problem that people look at now in the Middle East is they say it's spun out of control because the radicals are on both sides now.
Chomsky: No, there's three sides. You're forgetting the United States. The radicals in the United States who have blocked this proposal for 25 years, continue to block it.
Solomon: How do we get back, now, there's so much distrust?
Chomsky: The first way we get back is by trying the experiment of minimal honesty. If we try that experiment of minimal honesty, we look at our own position and we discover what I just described. That for 25 years, the United States has blocked the political settlement, which is supported by the majority of the American population and by the entire world, except for Israel.
We take a look at Camp David and we see how it's the same. The United States was still demanding a Bantustans style settlement and rejecting the overwhelming international consensus and the position of the American people.'
http://www.radioislam.org/historia/zionism/novpg5.gif
Oslo II map, or, as the Palestinians call it, the "Leopard Skin" for obvious reasons. Israel will control fully the light grey area (A~=56%) and partially the dark grey area (B~=40%). Only the black area (C~=4%) is under full Palestinian control. This is the map of the much-lauded land-for-peace deal. (Map source The Foundation for Middle East Peace. See also Associated Press map here
Hmmm, not really. I think it's more about eliminating all Non-Muslims, instead of a fight for freedom. I also think it has a lot to do with envy. Jews have built Israel into a modern, functioning society. I believe many Islamist radicals use religion as an excuse to murder innocents, while the deeper problem could be the envy and resentment of those who are doing better than you.
So you believe that Palestinian resistance to the illegal occupation boils down to envy? Palestinians are envious of Israel's wealth? This is plainly ridiculous, but typical of many American's view of the world. Many Americans believe that 9/11 occurred because 'Arabs' are envious of America. This type of thinking belongs in the heads of 4 year olds.
And as for your assumption - which has no relation to the facts, and which can't be supported by any evidence - that the Palestinians struggle is '..more about eliminating all Non-Muslims..' can you please explain how this differs from the often stated goals of the Zionists?
Let's face it, if the Jews gave back all the land they rightfully occupied after the 1967 war, Arab Muslims would still be doing everything in their power to wipe every Jew out of Israel.
You make it sound like 'Arab Muslims' have wiped any Jews out of Israel. As you know perfectly well, this just isn't the case.
Also, your argument is the equivalent of saying that the French resistance needed to be eliminated because they would have wanted to wipe every German out of Germany. It's basically meaningless and irrelevant. Your hypotheses about what may happen if and when Israel begins abiding by international law and withdraws to the 1967 borders are no justification for it's crimes.
How does the vicious cycle of violence end? What's your solution?
One of the problems is that many people, along with the mainstream media in the West, try to portray the issue as complicated. It's not actually very complicated at all. It's actually pretty straightforward; Israel needs to begin abiding by the consensus of the international community - excluding the U.S - and the dictates of the U.N security council, and withdraw from the post 1967 occupied territories.
Excerpted from “The International Laws of Belligerent Occupation”
by Professor of International Law Francis Boyle
'Belligerent occupation is governed by The Hague Regulations of 1907, as well as by the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, and the customary laws of belligerent occupation. Security Council Resolution 1322 (2000), paragraph 3 continued: “Calls upon Israel, the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by its legal obligations and its responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in a Time of War of 12 August 1949;...” Again, the Security Council vote was 14 to 0, becoming obligatory international law.
The Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the West Bank, to the Gaza Strip, and to the entire City of Jerusalem, in order to protect the Palestinians living there. The Palestinian People living in this Palestinian Land are “protected persons” within the meaning of the Fourth Geneva Convention. All of their rights are sacred under international law.
There are 149 substantive articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention that protect the rights of every one of these Palestinians living in occupied Palestine. The Israeli Government is currently violating, and has since 1967 been violating, almost each and every one of these sacred rights of the Palestinian People recognized by the Fourth Geneva Convention. Indeed, violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention are war crimes.
So this is not a symmetrical situation. As matters of fact and of law, the gross and repeated violations of Palestinian rights by the Israeli army and Israeli settlers living illegally in occupied Palestine constitute war crimes. Conversely, the Palestinian People are defending themselves and their Land and their Homes against Israeli war crimes and Israeli war criminals, both military and civilian.'
You think most muslims support the extremists? :eek: far from it. Islam is as peaceful a religion as any other religion... but, like with any other religion, there are those who use their book to support their actions. Most Muslims just want to live their life as they see fit too... I disagree with quite a lot of their customs but I respect their right to live as they see fit.
I strongly disagree with you here. Everywhere there are Muslims in the world, there is trouble/conflict. Many people actually think "Islam" means "peace," but it happens to mean "submission".
I would hope that one day all Muslim countries resemble Turkey, then progress will be made.
I strongly disagree with you here. Everywhere there are Muslims in the world, there is trouble/conflict. Many people actually think "Islam" means "peace," but it happens to mean "submission".
I would hope that one day all Muslim countries resemble Turkey, then progress will be made.
Everywhere there are people in the world, there is trouble/conflict.
Excerpted from “The International Laws of Belligerent Occupation”
by Professor of International Law Francis Boyle
'Belligerent occupation is governed by The Hague Regulations of 1907, as well as by the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, and the customary laws of belligerent occupation. Security Council Resolution 1322 (2000), paragraph 3 continued: “Calls upon Israel, the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by its legal obligations and its responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in a Time of War of 12 August 1949;...” Again, the Security Council vote was 14 to 0, becoming obligatory international law.
The Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the West Bank, to the Gaza Strip, and to the entire City of Jerusalem, in order to protect the Palestinians living there. The Palestinian People living in this Palestinian Land are “protected persons” within the meaning of the Fourth Geneva Convention. All of their rights are sacred under international law.
There are 149 substantive articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention that protect the rights of every one of these Palestinians living in occupied Palestine. The Israeli Government is currently violating, and has since 1967 been violating, almost each and every one of these sacred rights of the Palestinian People recognized by the Fourth Geneva Convention. Indeed, violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention are war crimes.
So this is not a symmetrical situation. As matters of fact and of law, the gross and repeated violations of Palestinian rights by the Israeli army and Israeli settlers living illegally in occupied Palestine constitute war crimes. Conversely, the Palestinian People are defending themselves and their Land and their Homes against Israeli war crimes and Israeli war criminals, both military and civilian.'
That's all well and good, but Israel has the right to defend itself from those hostile to it, so as a result of winning the 6 day war, they certainly have the right to do what it takes to defend itself. Occupying certain areas are defensive in nature.
That's all well and good, but Israel has the right to defend itself from those hostile to it, so as a result of winning the 6 day war, they certainly have the right to do what it takes to defend itself. Occupying certain areas are defensive in nature.
Occupying other countries is illegal in nature.
Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
So you believe that Palestinian resistance to the illegal occupation boils down to envy? Palestinians are envious of Israel's wealth? This is plainly ridiculous, but typical of many American's view of the world. Many Americans believe that 9/11 occurred because 'Arabs' are envious of America. This type of thinking belongs in the heads of 4 year olds.
And as for your assumption - which has no relation to the facts, and which can't be supported by any evidence - that the Palestinians struggle is '..more about eliminating all Non-Muslims..' can you please explain how this differs from the often stated goals of the Zionists?
I do think envy is a motivating factor. While, there are some oil rich Arab/Muslim states, the majority of Muslims in the Middle East & Asia are very poor. Many Muslims hear stories about the days when Islam was at the center of intellectual progress. So, who's to blame for the current state of things....it must be the Jews, the Christians, or any Non-Muslim. Muslims need to look within themselves if they really want to find out why they have fallen behind the West.
Regarding 9/11, I'm certainly not one who thinks it happened because of envy, although I'm sure it played a small part. If you believe what the Jihadis say, 9/11 happened as a result of American soldiers being on Saudi land, the support we give Israel, and our propping up of various dictators, etc. At the root of all of this, is the radical Islamic philosophy of converting or killing any Non-Muslim. The ultimate goal is to make the entire World into a Sharia State.
I do think envy is a motivating factor. While, there are some oil rich Arab/Muslim states, the majority of Muslims in the Middle East & Asia are very poor. Many Muslims hear stories about the days when Islam was at the center of intellectual progress. So, who's to blame for the current state of things....it must be the Jews, the Christians, or any Non-Muslim. Muslims need to look within themselves if they really want to find out why they have fallen behind the West.
Regarding 9/11, I'm certainly not one who thinks it happened because of envy, although I'm sure it played a small part. If you believe what the Jihadis say, 9/11 happened as a result of American soldiers being on Saudi land, the support we give Israel, and our propping up of various dictators, etc. At the root of all of this, is the radical Islamic philosophy of converting or killing any Non-Muslim. The ultimate goal is to make the entire World into a Sharia State.
Do you... do you even realise what you type sometimes?
Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
So you believe that Palestinian resistance to the illegal occupation boils down to envy? Palestinians are envious of Israel's wealth? This is plainly ridiculous, but typical of many American's view of the world. Many Americans believe that 9/11 occurred because 'Arabs' are envious of America. This type of thinking belongs in the heads of 4 year olds.
And as for your assumption - which has no relation to the facts, and which can't be supported by any evidence - that the Palestinians struggle is '..more about eliminating all Non-Muslims..' can you please explain how this differs from the often stated goals of the Zionists?
Are you Chinese, or do you just live/work in China? If you are Chinese, it seems quite comical for you to criticize America and talk about those who violate the rights of others.
I do think envy is a motivating factor. While, there are some oil rich Arab/Muslim states, the majority of Muslims in the Middle East & Asia are very poor. Many Muslims hear stories about the days when Islam was at the center of intellectual progress. So, who's to blame for the current state of things....it must be the Jews, the Christians, or any Non-Muslim. Muslims need to look within themselves if they really want to find out why they have fallen behind the West.
Regarding 9/11, I'm certainly not one who thinks it happened because of envy, although I'm sure it played a small part. If you believe what the Jihadis say, 9/11 happened as a result of American soldiers being on Saudi land, the support we give Israel, and our propping up of various dictators, etc. At the root of all of this, is the radical Islamic philosophy of converting or killing any Non-Muslim. The ultimate goal is to make the entire World into a Sharia State.
Where do you get your information? it is so skewed it's untrue.
Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
I strongly disagree with you here. Everywhere there are Muslims in the world, there is trouble/conflict. Many people actually think "Islam" means "peace," but it happens to mean "submission".
I would hope that one day all Muslim countries resemble Turkey, then progress will be made.
Huh? But Turkey's full of Muslims... what makes THEM ok and the others not?
By the way, there are plenty of Muslims in Ireland... never cause a bit of trouble... yet the only conflict we've known was catholic V protestant... the only conflict most of Europe has known was christian V jew. So maybe you could change what you just said to 'everywhere there is religion in the world, there is trouble/conflict'
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Do you... do you even realise what you type sometimes?
one of the very very few times I've laughed out loud... although it's not really very funny at all :(
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Huh? But Turkey's full of Muslims... what makes THEM ok and the others not?
By the way, there are plenty of Muslims in Ireland... never cause a bit of trouble... yet the only conflict we've known was catholic V protestant... the only conflict most of Europe has known was christian V jew. So maybe you could change what you just said to 'everywhere there is religion in the world, there is trouble/conflict'
Turkey, unlike most Muslim countries, is the most democratic. Ataturk's reforms after 1923 were revolutionary after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Even before Ataturk, Turkey was known to be much more tolerant of Non-Muslims than it's Muslim neighbors. Turkey even took in Jews that were being persecuted in Spain at the time of the Inquisition.
So, Muslims haven't caused any problems in Europe? Tell that to the Spanish, the English, the Germans, the French...
I strongly disagree with you here. Everywhere there are Muslims in the world, there is trouble/conflict. Many people actually think "Islam" means "peace," but it happens to mean "submission".
I would hope that one day all Muslim countries resemble Turkey, then progress will be made.
Turkey has BY FAR the worst human rights record in europe/eurasia. Did you know that? and not because its muslim or democratic.
why wouldnt you pick Dubai, the UAE, Morocco, Tunisia, etc.....? becuase you just dont like non-western countries?
Comments
This is what happens when your government insists on perpetuating a crime against humanity. Those on the receiving end of this crime seek to defend themselves/retaliate with any means at their disposal.
Michael Neumann - The Case Against Israel
"We find it's low-tech attacks on individuals more distasteful than high-tech attacks, even if they are sure to harm individuals just as much. A beheading disgusts us; not so a massive air assault which will have the side effect of blowing the heads off a few children. That both the attackers and ourselves fully expect such 'collateral damage' doesn't seem to matter. This indeed is why we witness the spectacular exercise in obliviousness that sees the apostles of Western civilization berating 'the Arabs' or Islam for it's brutality. That Western civilization recently produced King Leopold's Congo genocide, Hiroshima, the concentration camps, and two catastrophic world wars should make us think twice before we see any particular evil in the Palestinian response."
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
But you're perfectly o.k with Israeli F16's firing missiles into crowds of civilians in a refugee camp? And with Israeli tanks running over and crushing a 60 year old man in a wheelchair? And Israeli snipers shooting 6 year old children in the head for throwing stones at an armoured vehicle? And the bulldozing of 20,000 homes?
And you're also o.k with this...
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/talafargirl.jpg
http://english.people.com.cn/200607/31/images/0730_B64.jpg
http://tinyrevolution.com/mt/mt-static/images/lebanon2.jpg
http://www.hamdden.co.uk/Images/Palestinian_land_loss_Map.jpg
Mother and her four children killed during Israeli incursion
Tuesday April 29 2008
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/29/israelandthepalestinians
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/child_41304.html
The Israeli occupation army and paramilitary Jewish settlers have killed 545 Palestinian children and minors since the outbreak of the al-Aqsa Intifada in September 2000.
Among these victims, 266 children were 14 or younger while the ages of the remaining 279 ranged from 15 to 18. Moreover, as many as 20,000 Palestinian children were injured, with nearly 1500 sustaining life-long disabilities.
The total number of Palestinians killed by Israel during the current Intifada is around 2700, the vast majority of them civilians.
One of the latest Palestinian children to be killed by the Israeli army was six-year-old Khalid Mahir Walwil from the Balata refugee camp near Nablus.
He was shot in the back as he turned away from the window on the second floor of his house.
Khalid had reportedly stayed at home that day, too frightened to go to school because Israeli soldiers were “operating” in the area.'
Of course I could go on all day posting hundreds of links to pages which describe countless Israeli war crimes, random atrocities, and deliberate targeting of civilians. If you need me to do so, then I'll gladly oblige.
The above statement is a lie.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14120.htm
'...is there a possible political settlement today? Has there been one for the last 25 years? Is it supported by the entire world, including the majority of the American people? The answer to that question is yes. There is a political settlement that has been supported by virtually the entire world, including the Arab states, the PLO, Europe, Eastern Europe, Canada…
Solomon: Didn't Barak put that on the table?
Chomsky: No, he did not!
Solomon: He did not?
Chomsky: What was also supported by the majority of the American people, has just been reiterated by Saudi Arabia. The U.S. has unilaterally blocked it for 25 years. What Barak put on the table, the population doesn't know this, because people like the Western media in Canada in the United States don't tell them. Like, you can check and see how often, you for example, and others, have reported what I just said. Don't bother checking. The answer is zero.
The Barak proposal in Camp David, the Barak-Clinton proposal, in the United States, I didn't check the Canadian media, in the United States you cannot find a map, which is the most important thing of course, check in Canada, see if you can find a map. You go to Israel, you can find a map, you go to scholarly sources, you can find a map. Here's what you find when you look at a map: You find that this generous, magnanimous proposal provided Israel with a salient east of Jerusalem, which was established primarily by the Labor government, in order to bisect the West Bank. That salient goes almost to Jericho, breaks the West Bank into two cantons, then there's a second salient to the North, going to the Israeli settlement of Ariel, which bisects the Northern part into two cantons.
So, we've got three cantons in the West Bank, virtually separated. All three of them are separated from a small area of East Jerusalem which is the center of Palestinian commercial and cultural life and of communications. So you have four cantons, all separated from the West, from Gaza, so that's five cantons, all surrounded by Israeli settlements, infrastructure, development and so on, which also incidentally guarantee Israel control of the water resources.
This does not rise to the level of South Africa 40 years ago when South Africa established the Bantustans. That's the generous, magnanimous offer. And there's a good reason why maps weren't shown. Because as soon as you look at a map, you see it.
Solomon: All right, but let me just say, Arafat didn't even bother putting a counter-proposal on the table.
Chomsky: Oh, that's not true.
Solomon: They negotiated that afterwards.
Chomsky: That's not true.
Solomon: I guess my question is, if they don't continue to negotiate -
Chomsky: They did. That's false.
Solomon: That's false?
Chomsky: Not only is it false, but not a single participant in the meetings says it. That's a media fabrication . . .
Solomon: That Arafat didn't put a counter-proposal . . .
Chomsky: Yeah, they had a proposal. They proposed the international consensus, which has been accepted by the entire world, the Arab states, the PLO. They proposed a settlement which is in accordance with an overwhelming international consensus, and is blocked by the United States.
Solomon: If you don't talk -
Chomsky: Yeah, they did talk. They talked. They proposed that.
Solomon: Once they walked out of Camp David,
Chomsky: They didn't walk out of Camp David . . .
Solomon: Both camps . . .
Chomsky: No, no, both sides walked out of Camp David.
Solomon: All right, once Camp David disbands, the radicals take over the process, my question is, how do . . .
Chomsky: No, no, the radicals didn't take over the process.
Solomon: You don't think that the Sharon, the right-wing Israeli . . .
Chomsky: No, Barak stayed in power for months. Barak cancelled it. That's how it ended.
Solomon: OK. The problem that people look at now in the Middle East is they say it's spun out of control because the radicals are on both sides now.
Chomsky: No, there's three sides. You're forgetting the United States. The radicals in the United States who have blocked this proposal for 25 years, continue to block it.
Solomon: How do we get back, now, there's so much distrust?
Chomsky: The first way we get back is by trying the experiment of minimal honesty. If we try that experiment of minimal honesty, we look at our own position and we discover what I just described. That for 25 years, the United States has blocked the political settlement, which is supported by the majority of the American population and by the entire world, except for Israel.
We take a look at Camp David and we see how it's the same. The United States was still demanding a Bantustans style settlement and rejecting the overwhelming international consensus and the position of the American people.'
http://www.radioislam.org/historia/zionism/novpg5.gif
Oslo II map, or, as the Palestinians call it, the "Leopard Skin" for obvious reasons. Israel will control fully the light grey area (A~=56%) and partially the dark grey area (B~=40%). Only the black area (C~=4%) is under full Palestinian control. This is the map of the much-lauded land-for-peace deal. (Map source The Foundation for Middle East Peace. See also Associated Press map here
So you believe that Palestinian resistance to the illegal occupation boils down to envy? Palestinians are envious of Israel's wealth? This is plainly ridiculous, but typical of many American's view of the world. Many Americans believe that 9/11 occurred because 'Arabs' are envious of America. This type of thinking belongs in the heads of 4 year olds.
And as for your assumption - which has no relation to the facts, and which can't be supported by any evidence - that the Palestinians struggle is '..more about eliminating all Non-Muslims..' can you please explain how this differs from the often stated goals of the Zionists?
You make it sound like 'Arab Muslims' have wiped any Jews out of Israel. As you know perfectly well, this just isn't the case.
Also, your argument is the equivalent of saying that the French resistance needed to be eliminated because they would have wanted to wipe every German out of Germany. It's basically meaningless and irrelevant. Your hypotheses about what may happen if and when Israel begins abiding by international law and withdraws to the 1967 borders are no justification for it's crimes.
One of the problems is that many people, along with the mainstream media in the West, try to portray the issue as complicated. It's not actually very complicated at all. It's actually pretty straightforward; Israel needs to begin abiding by the consensus of the international community - excluding the U.S - and the dictates of the U.N security council, and withdraw from the post 1967 occupied territories.
I'm afraid you're wrong...again.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/int_law.html
International Law, Israel, and Palestine
Excerpted from “The International Laws of Belligerent Occupation”
by Professor of International Law Francis Boyle
'Belligerent occupation is governed by The Hague Regulations of 1907, as well as by the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, and the customary laws of belligerent occupation. Security Council Resolution 1322 (2000), paragraph 3 continued: “Calls upon Israel, the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by its legal obligations and its responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in a Time of War of 12 August 1949;...” Again, the Security Council vote was 14 to 0, becoming obligatory international law.
The Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the West Bank, to the Gaza Strip, and to the entire City of Jerusalem, in order to protect the Palestinians living there. The Palestinian People living in this Palestinian Land are “protected persons” within the meaning of the Fourth Geneva Convention. All of their rights are sacred under international law.
There are 149 substantive articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention that protect the rights of every one of these Palestinians living in occupied Palestine. The Israeli Government is currently violating, and has since 1967 been violating, almost each and every one of these sacred rights of the Palestinian People recognized by the Fourth Geneva Convention. Indeed, violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention are war crimes.
So this is not a symmetrical situation. As matters of fact and of law, the gross and repeated violations of Palestinian rights by the Israeli army and Israeli settlers living illegally in occupied Palestine constitute war crimes. Conversely, the Palestinian People are defending themselves and their Land and their Homes against Israeli war crimes and Israeli war criminals, both military and civilian.'
I strongly disagree with you here. Everywhere there are Muslims in the world, there is trouble/conflict. Many people actually think "Islam" means "peace," but it happens to mean "submission".
I would hope that one day all Muslim countries resemble Turkey, then progress will be made.
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Ron Paul 2012
Everywhere there are people in the world, there is trouble/conflict.
naděje umírá poslední
That's all well and good, but Israel has the right to defend itself from those hostile to it, so as a result of winning the 6 day war, they certainly have the right to do what it takes to defend itself. Occupying certain areas are defensive in nature.
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Ron Paul 2012
Occupying other countries is illegal in nature.
I do think envy is a motivating factor. While, there are some oil rich Arab/Muslim states, the majority of Muslims in the Middle East & Asia are very poor. Many Muslims hear stories about the days when Islam was at the center of intellectual progress. So, who's to blame for the current state of things....it must be the Jews, the Christians, or any Non-Muslim. Muslims need to look within themselves if they really want to find out why they have fallen behind the West.
Regarding 9/11, I'm certainly not one who thinks it happened because of envy, although I'm sure it played a small part. If you believe what the Jihadis say, 9/11 happened as a result of American soldiers being on Saudi land, the support we give Israel, and our propping up of various dictators, etc. At the root of all of this, is the radical Islamic philosophy of converting or killing any Non-Muslim. The ultimate goal is to make the entire World into a Sharia State.
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Ron Paul 2012
Do you... do you even realise what you type sometimes?
Are you Chinese, or do you just live/work in China? If you are Chinese, it seems quite comical for you to criticize America and talk about those who violate the rights of others.
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Ron Paul 2012
Absolutely. How about you? I know it must get frustrating being wrong so often, but hang in there. In time, you will learn.
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Ron Paul 2012
Riiight. Okay, so you're just deluded. I can live with that.
Your like GW the more you talk the more you hurt your cause.
There is one positive thing about you...
Being a Pearl Jam fan. I just hope your favorite song isn't Evenflow.
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Ron Paul 2012
Where do you get your information? it is so skewed it's untrue.
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
By the way, there are plenty of Muslims in Ireland... never cause a bit of trouble... yet the only conflict we've known was catholic V protestant... the only conflict most of Europe has known was christian V jew. So maybe you could change what you just said to 'everywhere there is religion in the world, there is trouble/conflict'
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
George Washington?
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Ron Paul 2012
Please tell me what specifically is "untrue"?
I get my information from a variety of sources, but I highly suggest reading "The Two Faces of Islam," by Stephen Schwartz. Very interesting read!
www.wm3.org
Ron Paul 2012
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I'm honoured.
Turkey, unlike most Muslim countries, is the most democratic. Ataturk's reforms after 1923 were revolutionary after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Even before Ataturk, Turkey was known to be much more tolerant of Non-Muslims than it's Muslim neighbors. Turkey even took in Jews that were being persecuted in Spain at the time of the Inquisition.
So, Muslims haven't caused any problems in Europe? Tell that to the Spanish, the English, the Germans, the French...
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Ron Paul 2012
Is the water/beer supply over in Ireland being drugged? LOL!
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Ron Paul 2012
LOLZZZZZ!!!1!!1ONE!
Yes.
Turkey has BY FAR the worst human rights record in europe/eurasia. Did you know that? and not because its muslim or democratic.
why wouldnt you pick Dubai, the UAE, Morocco, Tunisia, etc.....? becuase you just dont like non-western countries?