now I do agree that people under 21 should not be able to obtain guns, now how we go about that is a different story.........
Why not? Why not arm everybody? There were two high school shootings this week, they could have been prevented if everyone in high school was armed, right?
You argue that mentally unstable people should be allowed to own guns. (That is a great argument by the way, I can't think of anything more responsible or more safe than a bunch of people whose mental health is not ok (depression, phobias, stress disorders, hallucinations, all sorts of personality disorders, identity disorders) having guns around). But why not kids? Why not give your 15-year-old a deadly weapon that could blow his head right off?
I mean, once they're 17 they can even join the army. But no, no guns for people under 21, that would be absurd, right?
my opinion is if everyone was armed at that school this would not have happened
I read the victims profiles. The majority of them were under 21. But anyay, I think it's the worst idea ever for (apparently not so) obvious reasons.
So what is happening in the US right now to prevent these things in the future? Stricter laws? More trained security on schools? Metal detectors? More guidance for troubled students?
Why not? Why not arm everybody? There were two high school shootings this week, they could have been prevented if everyone in high school was armed, right?
You argue that mentally unstable people should be allowed to own guns. (That is a great argument by the way, I can't think of anything more responsible or more safe than a bunch of people whose mental health is not ok (depression, phobias, stress disorders, hallucinations, all sorts of personality disorders, identity disorders) having guns around). But why not kids? Why not give your 15-year-old a deadly weapon that could blow his head right off?
I mean, once they're 17 they can even join the army. But no, no guns for people under 21, that would be absurd, right?
I read the victims profiles. The majority of them were under 21. But anyay, I think it's the worst idea ever for (apparently not so) obvious reasons.
So what is happening in the US right now to prevent these things in the future? Stricter laws? More trained security on schools? Metal detectors? More guidance for troubled students?
you definitely make some valid points
I really couldn't say what the answers are, but I don't think more Gun Control is the answer........
the 2nd amendment is still as relevant today as it ever has been, if not more
maybe age restrictions, or teachers allowed to carry weapons
I do know, there is an answer to this problem of school shootings without taking away everyone's guns
Your right to bear arms does...I bet if you banned handguns, school shootings would drop to 0.
But hey at least these kids are dying for your rights hey???
the right to bear arms doesn't give anyone any right to shoot someone; it gives you a right to own a gun. And you can ban handguns all you want, but they're still going to be out there, granted not as many but they'd still be there. Banning things hasn't worked to well in the past (prohibition is an example). Look at schools today and the bans in place. Drugs are banned and no one is doing drugs in schools at all :rolleyes: The only way to drop school shootings to zero is to eradicate every handgun, not ban hand guns. What you wish for is a fantasy to happen in the real world.
We need to see the crisis for what it is, a crisis of society, not a crisis of guns. We have to stop blaming and damning objects and start changing ourselves not laws.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
i can't help but think if everyone had the 'right' to a concelled (sp?) weapon that there would be many more dead than just the 6 reported.
what if of the 100+ people in the auditorium 50 had guns and in a panic...just started firing.
would we be looking at more than 6 dead? in my opinion, yes.
We need to see the crisis for what it is, a crisis of society, not a crisis of guns. We have to stop blaming and damning objects and start changing ourselves not laws.
I don't think people are necessarily blaming guns. I think rational people will realize a gun doesn't automatically lead to murder. Yet, I think they also realize a gun in the wrong hands (a person with pyschological problems for example) can be extremely dangerous. So, perhaps you do have to change a few laws. And either way, a gun in the hands of a good law-abiding citizen or a criminal, it's still a dangerous weapon. So, is it really so surprising when a person with mental problems walks into a gun shop, buys four guns and goes on a killing spree that people want to change a few laws?
"What you wish for is a fantasy to happen in the real world." I think this very much applies to what you said.
I was reading the responses and I thought of this.....although, I first have to say that there is no real answer to the problem that I can think of on my own; it is way more complicated than I could dissect because it would need to be dissected thoroughly.....
I can't help but wonder WHY we are so fucked up in our heads. I take my responsibility here of equally being fucked up (not even with the added chemicals; just ME), fucking up, and possibly doing things to fuck up other people even though I am not intentially trying to do so; it is just them breathing in my poison fumes that my actions create. But enough deep euphorisms......here's my point.
Why is it that we have more than most of the generations before us, more opportunities and material possessions and here we are, doing worse things than (I think--correct me if I am wrong----but I have the faith you will if need be) most of those behind us. I know we can delve into history and get into society that was barbaric and use examples of them to see that we are not really such a mess, but I am referring to civilized civilations not like way back into time but just maybe like 50 years ago until now for a time marker so to speak.
Is it that in seeking our freedoms we broke down barriers but also rules for us to behave within certain criteras that would promote mental stabilities? Have we embraced the whole psychological babying that went on maybe like 17 years ago when I had my first child and people were telling THEIR kids fucked up things like, "how do you feel about not listening?" ( as the kids say, WTF?)? We went from when I was a kid and kids didn't really have rights or feelings to a time when feelings were about everything and everywhere.
But even saying this I am confused; because I am not sure if it is the reasons that I am saying there or if it is something else......
I am so lost now just reading my own post..........what do you think guys? Where does the whole responsibilty lie? I know it is within ourselves but where within ourselves?
Baby, You Wouldn't Last a Minute on The Creek......
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
I was reading the responses and I thought of this.....although, I first have to say that there is no real answer to the problem that I can think of on my own; it is way more complicated than I could dissect because it would need to be dissected thoroughly.....
I can't help but wonder WHY we are so fucked up in our heads. I take my responsibility here of equally being fucked up (not even with the added chemicals; just ME), fucking up, and possibly doing things to fuck up other people even though I am not intentially trying to do so; it is just them breathing in my poison fumes that my actions create. But enough deep euphorisms......here's my point.
Why is it that we have more than most of the generations before us, more opportunities and material possessions and here we are, doing worse things than (I think--correct me if I am wrong----but I have the faith you will if need be) most of those behind us. I know we can delve into history and get into society that was barbaric and use examples of them to see that we are not really such a mess, but I am referring to civilized civilations not like way back into time but just maybe like 50 years ago until now for a time marker so to speak.
Is it that in seeking our freedoms we broke down barriers but also rules for us to behave within certain criteras that would promote mental stabilities? Have we embraced the whole psychological babying that went on maybe like 17 years ago when I had my first child and people were telling THEIR kids fucked up things like, "how do you feel about not listening?" ( as the kids say, WTF?)? We went from when I was a kid and kids didn't really have rights or feelings to a time when feelings were about everything and everywhere.
But even saying this I am confused; because I am not sure if it is the reasons that I am saying there or if it is something else......
I am so lost now just reading my own post..........what do you think guys? Where does the whole responsibilty lie? I know it is within ourselves but where within ourselves?
People have always been fucked up. I mean there are people alive who witnessed the Holocaust, there are black people in the US whose family members were murdered just because they were black... No need to go back to Mediæval times. Perhaps we are doing worse, though. But then again, perhaps it's just a different setting. Perhaps it's more real that the horrors in the history books because it's happening us.
I don't know. I think I struggle with the same questions, though. It's hard to figure out what the cause is, what pushes these people over the edge. There are probably a myriad of reasons.
It's an American phenomenon, though. And my guess is the "American Way" is definitely also a reason. The illusion of freedom has created a free life, a free world in which extremes thrive.
No, but he said "so what".. end of story. Something bad happens, how to you respond to sombody saying "so what" to people who are mourning..
ok i got banned for my last comments.. which i dont completely comprehend as the reason given was 'trolling'.. which is strange as i've posted on practically every gun thread thats ever been on this forum but i can see why my initial comments would cause discomfort.. but then that was the point.... it was my version of shock and awe :rolleyes:
basically i am aghast at which the rate of shootings happen in the states compared to other developed nations.. its wholly repugnant... but my comment that i got banned for was no less or no more inflammatory than some of the pro-gun posts i read on here.. my comment was me in the last throws of despair and i have no sympathy for a COUNTRY (not the actual victims and their families) that refuses to intelligently look at what might be the root cause of these school shootings (amongst other daily occurences)... and yet some people come back onto here and post that all teachers should be able to carry weapons... and thats just insane!!?
if pro-gun people use the mantra of "guns dont kill people, people kill people" then i'll use the old one of "you cant fight fire with fire"... both are equally idiotic but there you go
so... i apologise if i caused offence but i feel its a subjective that should be faced and by provoking reactions maybe people can be intelligent about the topic of gun control..
i watched a movie last night and it was set in 1890 in the Wild West of America... now i can understand the right to bear arms back in the day of castle rustling, forced conscription, slavery, land repossession, etc etc but for fucks sake people still drove around in wooden stagecoaches back then... the US needs to realise their gun laws are the laughing stock of the world... I have a relative in Virginia who says even after the Virginia Tech shootings in which approx 30 died (i dont know the exact figure due to the sheer amount of deaths that happen each school curriculum) that there is no law in place to stop his ex-military trained son who has a history of mental illnesses going to a touring gun show and buying guns... this is his words and i dont know if thats 100% true, but if it is then it's an insult to the families of the dead... just as the comments of some on here are an insult to the families of the dead of the Illinois shooting.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
ok i got banned for my last comments.. which i dont completely comprehend as the reason given was 'trolling'.. which is strange as i've posted on practically every gun thread thats ever been on this forum but i can see why my initial comments would cause discomfort.. but then that was the point.... it was my version of shock and awe :rolleyes:
basically i am aghast at which the rate of shootings happen in the states compared to other developed nations.. its wholly repugnant... but my comment that i got banned for was no less or no more inflammatory than some of the pro-gun posts i read on here.. my comment was me in the last throws of despair and i have no sympathy for a COUNTRY (not the actual victims and their families) that refuses to intelligently look at what might be the root cause of these school shootings (amongst other daily occurences)... and yet some people come back onto here and post that all teachers should be able to carry weapons... and thats just insane!!?
if pro-gun people use the mantra of "guns dont kill people, people kill people" then i'll use the old one of "you cant fight fire with fire"... both are equally idiotic but there you go
so... i apologise if i caused offence but i feel its a subjective that should be faced and by provoking reactions maybe people can be intelligent about the topic of gun control..
i watched a movie last night and it was set in 1890 in the Wild West of America... now i can understand the right to bear arms back in the day of castle rustling, forced conscription, slavery, land repossession, etc etc but for fucks sake people still drove around in wooden stagecoaches back then... the US needs to realise their gun laws are the laughing stock of the world... I have a relative in Virginia who says even after the Virginia Tech shootings in which approx 30 died (i dont know the exact figure due to the sheer amount of deaths that happen each school curriculum) that there is no law in place to stop his ex-military trained son who has a history of mental illnesses going to a touring gun show and buying guns... this is his words and i dont know if thats 100% true, but if it is then it's an insult to the families of the dead... just as the comments of some on here are an insult to the families of the dead of the Illinois shooting.
the right to bear arms doesn't give anyone any right to shoot someone; it gives you a right to own a gun. And you can ban handguns all you want, but they're still going to be out there, granted not as many but they'd still be there. Banning things hasn't worked to well in the past (prohibition is an example). Look at schools today and the bans in place. Drugs are banned and no one is doing drugs in schools at all :rolleyes: The only way to drop school shootings to zero is to eradicate every handgun, not ban hand guns. What you wish for is a fantasy to happen in the real world.
We need to see the crisis for what it is, a crisis of society, not a crisis of guns. We have to stop blaming and damning objects and start changing ourselves not laws.
Guns are banned in england.
How often do you hear about shootings in english schools?
I rest my case.
"I am a doughnut." (live - Berlin, Germany - 11/03/96)
"Behave like rock stars - not like the President." (live - Noblesville, IN - 8/17/98)
--Ed
"Yeah, I was gonna learn to play it (Breath) but somebody slipped me a bottle of viagra and was busy doing something else six times last night" (live - New York, NY - 9/10/98)
England is a police state. Why do they need more than one camera on every building?
ironic coming from someone who lives in a country that gave us the Patriot Act.
but you didnt answer his point
Guns are banned in england.
How often do you hear about shootings in english schools?
I rest my case.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
I haven't read all the posts, but in discussing gun control and who should & shouldn't be allowed to have guns and why such violence occurs, etc., I wonder if we're talking about two different kinds of people: mentally ill people and criminals. (No, I'm not saying that mentally ill people who kill others aren't criminals, or that the terms are mutually exclusive.) But in looking at why things happen and what we can do about it, perhaps there are different answers for these two groups.
Regarding people with mental illness, I feel like we have to remember that this is a larger group than we might like to think. Something like 1/4-1/3 of Americans could be considered mentally ill. These are our friends and loved ones - and probably ourselves. Did you have post-partum depression? Boom! You're mentally ill! Depressed that you're turning 40? Boom! You're mentally ill! You're a scary, dangerous person and should never own a gun. :rolleyes: Or at least that's what it will come down to if we start vilifying anyone and everyone who's ever been diagnosed with any kind of mental illness. The vast majority of people who could be considered mentally ill are perfectly harmless and are upstanding citizens like you and me. It's extremely unfortunate that some of them aren't, but those people don't represent the population.
I strongly believe that if we want to solve the problem of school shootings and such things, we need better access to mental health care. There was a case here in Albuquerque a couple of years ago where a schizophrenic man went on a shooting rampage across town and killed 5 people. What a horrible, horrible event! But the thing is, this man and his family tried NUMEROUS times to get him help before this happened, but to no avail. I can understand those posters from other countries asking, "Why is the U.S. not taking care of its gun problem?" But I think they should also be asking, "Why is the U.S. not taking care of its mentally ill?"
I can't help but wonder WHY we are so fucked up in our heads.... Why is it that we have more than most of the generations before us, more opportunities and material possessions and here we are, doing worse things than... most of those behind us.
With regard to criminals, my humble opinion is that one of the reasons we have so much crime is BECAUSE we have - or at least want - so much more than in the past. We live in a consumer culture that drives into everyone's heads that we must have MORE, MORE, MORE. Everyone else has more. We need more too. If we don't have more we won't fit in to society, no one will like us, we'll be ugly and unworthy of love. (And we wonder why so many people are depressed.) So we feel the need to have more but frequently don't feel that the system provides us with a legal means to get it, and since we don't have it we're not part of the group anyway. We create a society which marginalizes huge populations of people and then we expect them to play by the rules of that society. If you don't feel part of the group, and you don't feel that you can ever get ahead by following that group's rules, why would you follow them? Think of the social contract. We give up certain liberties and agree to follow laws so we can receive the protection of those laws as part of the society. But if (we feel like) we're not part of the society and the laws don't benefit us, why would we follow them? Why would we respect that society? Certainly I don't agree with this way of thinking and maybe I'm not making any sense, but I feel like this has something to do with at least some of the crime we see today. And I think that's why programs that reach out to "at-risk" (i.e marginalized) youth and give them a sense of pride and ownership in their communities are successful in keeping many kids from becoming criminals.
Of course, I also think the problems of depression, marginalization, criminal activity, consumerism, poverty, etc. are often intertwined. (How many of these kids who committed the crime of shooting their classmates did so because they were depressed because they felt marginalized and isolated from that very community of classmates?) So go ahead and call me crazy.
i dont actually know, so i'm interested in finding out
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
Havent heard of any. But I havent looked into it either. Ive heard a lot about cops shooting innocent people in England.
you've heard a lot of absolute shit then.. you heard about 1 cop (not cops plural) who shot 1 person (not people) who he believed to be a suicide bomber boarding a subway train only a few weeks after a suicide bombing attempt... stop diverting the attention away from the fact that in the US there has been 4 school shootings in the past 7 days.. you pointing out that the 'cops' (police dont carry guns here, only specially trained firearms officers who are called to an incident) killing 'innocent people' (sic) in England from August 06 only highlights the ignorance of the people of America when it comes to both the world around them and their own societal problems.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
Homicide and firearms crime
In 2005/06 there were 766 offences initially recorded as homicide by the police in England and Wales (including the 52 victims of the 7 July 2005 London bombings),[17] a rate of 1.4 per 100,000 of population. Only 50 (6.6%) were committed with firearms, one being with an air weapon.[18] The homicide rate for London was 2.4 per 100,000 in the same year (1.7 when excluding the 7 July bombings).[19]
By comparison, 5.5 murders per 100,000 of population were reported by police in the United States in 2000, of which 70% involved the use of firearms.[20] New York City, with a population size similar to London (over 8 million residents), reported 6.9 murders per 100,000 people in 2004.[21]
The rise in UK gun crime is a long term trend that is apparently unaffected by the state of UK firearms legislation. [22] Before the 1997 ban, handguns were only held by 0.1% of the population,[23] and while the number of crimes involving firearms in England and Wales increased from 13,874 in 1998/99 to 24,070 in 2002/03, they remained relatively static at 24,094 in 2003/04, and have since fallen to 21,521 in 2005/06. The latter includes 3,275 crimes involving imitation firearms and 10,437 involving air weapons, compared to 566 and 8,665 respectively in 1998/99.[24] Only those "firearms" positively identified as being imitations or air weapons (e.g. by being recovered by the police or by being fired) are classed as such, so the actual numbers are likely to be significantly higher. In 2005/06, 8,978 of the total of 21,521 firearms crimes (42%) were for criminal damage.[25]
Since 1998, the number of people injured by firearms in England and Wales increased by 110%,[26] from 2,378 in 1998/99 to 5,001 in 2005/06. "Injury" in this context means by the use of the gun as a blunt instrument or as a threat, or by being shot. In 2005/06, 87% of such injuries were defined as "slight," which includes the use of firearms as a threat only. The number of homicides committed with firearms has remained between a range of 46 and 97 for the past decade, standing at 50 in 2005/06 (a fall from 75 the previous year). Between 1998/99 and 2005/06, there have been only two fatal shootings of police officers in England and Wales. Over the same period there were 107 non-fatal shootings of police officers - an average of just 9.7 per year.[27]
Homicide and firearms crime
In 2005/06 there were 766 offences initially recorded as homicide by the police in England and Wales (including the 52 victims of the 7 July 2005 London bombings),[17] a rate of 1.4 per 100,000 of population. Only 50 (6.6%) were committed with firearms, one being with an air weapon.[18] The homicide rate for London was 2.4 per 100,000 in the same year (1.7 when excluding the 7 July bombings).[19]
50 gun deaths per year out of a country with 65 million people in it..
by comparison the US has some 35000 with a population of some 300million.
so allowing for having 5 times the population you should have around 250 gun deaths per year... but wait... here's the fucking hilarious part!!! you guys have 35000!!!!! not 250??!?!
how about that.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
you've heard a lot of absolute shit then.. you heard about 1 cop (not cops plural) who shot 1 person (not people) who he believed to be a suicide bomber boarding a subway train only a few weeks after a suicide bombing attempt... stop diverting the attention away from the fact that in the US there has been 4 school shootings in the past 7 days.. you pointing out that the 'cops' (police dont carry guns here, only specially trained firearms officers who are called to an incident) killing 'innocent people' (sic) in England from August 06 only highlights the ignorance of the people of America when it comes to both the world around them and their own societal problems.
Why was your country running drills on 7/7 involving situations where terrorists had bombs underground?
Peter Power, Managing Director of Visor Consultants, a private firm on contract to the London Metropolitan Police, described in a BBC interview how he had organized and conducted the anti-terror drill, on behalf of an unnamed business client.
The fictional scenario was based on simultaneous bombs going off at exactly the same time at the underground stations where the real attacks were occurring:
POWER: At half past nine this morning we were actually running an exercise for a company of over a thousand people in London based on simultaneous bombs going off precisely at the railway stations where it happened this morning, so I still have the hairs on the back of my neck standing up right now. http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20050808&articleId=821
HOST: To get this quite straight, you were running an exercise to see how you would cope with this and it happened while you were running the exercise?
POWER: Precisely, and it was about half past nine this morning, we planned this for a company and for obvious reasons I don't want to reveal their name but they're listening and they'll know it. And we had a room full of crisis managers for the first time they'd met and so within five minutes we made a pretty rapid decision that this is the real one and so we went through the correct drills of activating crisis management procedures to jump from slow time to quick time thinking and so on.
50 gun deaths per year out of a country with 65 million people in it..
by comparison the US has some 35000 with a population of some 300million.
so allowing for having 5 times the population you should have around 250 gun deaths per year... but wait... here's the fucking hilarious part!!! you guys have 35000!!!!! not 250??!?!
Why was your country running drills on 7/7 involving situations where terrorists had bombs underground?
Peter Power, Managing Director of Visor Consultants, a private firm on contract to the London Metropolitan Police, described in a BBC interview how he had organized and conducted the anti-terror drill, on behalf of an unnamed business client.
The fictional scenario was based on simultaneous bombs going off at exactly the same time at the underground stations where the real attacks were occurring:
POWER: At half past nine this morning we were actually running an exercise for a company of over a thousand people in London based on simultaneous bombs going off precisely at the railway stations where it happened this morning, so I still have the hairs on the back of my neck standing up right now. http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20050808&articleId=821
HOST: To get this quite straight, you were running an exercise to see how you would cope with this and it happened while you were running the exercise?
POWER: Precisely, and it was about half past nine this morning, we planned this for a company and for obvious reasons I don't want to reveal their name but they're listening and they'll know it. And we had a room full of crisis managers for the first time they'd met and so within five minutes we made a pretty rapid decision that this is the real one and so we went through the correct drills of activating crisis management procedures to jump from slow time to quick time thinking and so on.
don't care and it needs its own thread.. this is about gun deaths and gun control... what some conspiracy theorist gets up to in his own time i couldnt give a gorillas cock about.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
don't care and it needs its own thread.. this is about gun deaths and gun control... what some conspiracy theorist gets up to in his own time i couldnt give a gorillas cock about.
you've ignored every pertinent and legitimate stat i've posted.. why should i even entertain the 7/7 bombings question?
50 gun deaths per year out of a country with 65 million people in it..
by comparison the US has some 35000 with a population of some 300million.
so allowing for having 5 times the population you should have around 250 gun deaths per year... but wait... here's the fucking hilarious part!!! you guys have 35000!!!!! not 250??!?!
how about that.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
you posted about cops shooting innocent people.. how is this even relevant to the actual thread?
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
Im not saying Amerika doesnt suck. I posted statistics on gun crime in England. Then you turned it around on the U.S. Attack my country ill attack yours. Waste my time ill waste yours.
Havent heard of any. But I havent looked into it either. Ive heard a lot about cops shooting innocent people in England.
3rd post in you eventually post stats which magically highlight the vast difference between gun relate deaths in the US and in England.. thanks for that
Homicide and firearms crime
In 2005/06 there were 766 offences initially recorded as homicide by the police in England and Wales (including the 52 victims of the 7 July 2005 London bombings),[17] a rate of 1.4 per 100,000 of population. Only 50 (6.6%) were committed with firearms, one being with an air weapon.[18] The homicide rate for London was 2.4 per 100,000 in the same year (1.7 when excluding the 7 July bombings).[19]
By comparison, 5.5 murders per 100,000 of population were reported by police in the United States in 2000, of which 70% involved the use of firearms.[20] New York City, with a population size similar to London (over 8 million residents), reported 6.9 murders per 100,000 people in 2004.[21]
The rise in UK gun crime is a long term trend that is apparently unaffected by the state of UK firearms legislation. [22] Before the 1997 ban, handguns were only held by 0.1% of the population,[23] and while the number of crimes involving firearms in England and Wales increased from 13,874 in 1998/99 to 24,070 in 2002/03, they remained relatively static at 24,094 in 2003/04, and have since fallen to 21,521 in 2005/06. The latter includes 3,275 crimes involving imitation firearms and 10,437 involving air weapons, compared to 566 and 8,665 respectively in 1998/99.[24] Only those "firearms" positively identified as being imitations or air weapons (e.g. by being recovered by the police or by being fired) are classed as such, so the actual numbers are likely to be significantly higher. In 2005/06, 8,978 of the total of 21,521 firearms crimes (42%) were for criminal damage.[25]
Since 1998, the number of people injured by firearms in England and Wales increased by 110%,[26] from 2,378 in 1998/99 to 5,001 in 2005/06. "Injury" in this context means by the use of the gun as a blunt instrument or as a threat, or by being shot. In 2005/06, 87% of such injuries were defined as "slight," which includes the use of firearms as a threat only. The number of homicides committed with firearms has remained between a range of 46 and 97 for the past decade, standing at 50 in 2005/06 (a fall from 75 the previous year). Between 1998/99 and 2005/06, there have been only two fatal shootings of police officers in England and Wales. Over the same period there were 107 non-fatal shootings of police officers - an average of just 9.7 per year.[27]
Why was your country running drills on 7/7 involving situations where terrorists had bombs underground?
Peter Power, Managing Director of Visor Consultants, a private firm on contract to the London Metropolitan Police, described in a BBC interview how he had organized and conducted the anti-terror drill, on behalf of an unnamed business client.
The fictional scenario was based on simultaneous bombs going off at exactly the same time at the underground stations where the real attacks were occurring:
POWER: At half past nine this morning we were actually running an exercise for a company of over a thousand people in London based on simultaneous bombs going off precisely at the railway stations where it happened this morning, so I still have the hairs on the back of my neck standing up right now. http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20050808&articleId=821
HOST: To get this quite straight, you were running an exercise to see how you would cope with this and it happened while you were running the exercise?
POWER: Precisely, and it was about half past nine this morning, we planned this for a company and for obvious reasons I don't want to reveal their name but they're listening and they'll know it. And we had a room full of crisis managers for the first time they'd met and so within five minutes we made a pretty rapid decision that this is the real one and so we went through the correct drills of activating crisis management procedures to jump from slow time to quick time thinking and so on.
Im not saying Amerika doesnt suck. I posted statistics on gun crime in England. Then you turned it around on the U.S. Attack my country ill attack yours. Waste my time ill waste yours.
i dont live in England.. and i'll attack whomever i see fit.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
3rd post in you eventually post stats which magically highlight the vast difference between gun relate deaths in the US and in England.. thanks for that
then completely irrelevant to the actual topic:-
then some comedy:-
i dont live in England.. and i'll attack whomever i see fit.
Be careful. Wouldnt want to get yourself banned again.
Comments
Why not? Why not arm everybody? There were two high school shootings this week, they could have been prevented if everyone in high school was armed, right?
You argue that mentally unstable people should be allowed to own guns. (That is a great argument by the way, I can't think of anything more responsible or more safe than a bunch of people whose mental health is not ok (depression, phobias, stress disorders, hallucinations, all sorts of personality disorders, identity disorders) having guns around). But why not kids? Why not give your 15-year-old a deadly weapon that could blow his head right off?
I mean, once they're 17 they can even join the army. But no, no guns for people under 21, that would be absurd, right?
I read the victims profiles. The majority of them were under 21. But anyay, I think it's the worst idea ever for (apparently not so) obvious reasons.
So what is happening in the US right now to prevent these things in the future? Stricter laws? More trained security on schools? Metal detectors? More guidance for troubled students?
naděje umírá poslední
you definitely make some valid points
I really couldn't say what the answers are, but I don't think more Gun Control is the answer........
the 2nd amendment is still as relevant today as it ever has been, if not more
maybe age restrictions, or teachers allowed to carry weapons
I do know, there is an answer to this problem of school shootings without taking away everyone's guns
PEARL JAM~San Antonio, TX. 4~5~03
INCUBUS~Houston, TX. 1~19~07
INCUBUS~Denver, CO. 2~8~07
Lollapalooza~Chicago, IL. 8~5~07
INCUBUS~Austin, TX. 9~3~07
Bonnaroo~Manchester, TN 6~14~08
the right to bear arms doesn't give anyone any right to shoot someone; it gives you a right to own a gun. And you can ban handguns all you want, but they're still going to be out there, granted not as many but they'd still be there. Banning things hasn't worked to well in the past (prohibition is an example). Look at schools today and the bans in place. Drugs are banned and no one is doing drugs in schools at all :rolleyes: The only way to drop school shootings to zero is to eradicate every handgun, not ban hand guns. What you wish for is a fantasy to happen in the real world.
We need to see the crisis for what it is, a crisis of society, not a crisis of guns. We have to stop blaming and damning objects and start changing ourselves not laws.
what if of the 100+ people in the auditorium 50 had guns and in a panic...just started firing.
would we be looking at more than 6 dead? in my opinion, yes.
I don't think people are necessarily blaming guns. I think rational people will realize a gun doesn't automatically lead to murder. Yet, I think they also realize a gun in the wrong hands (a person with pyschological problems for example) can be extremely dangerous. So, perhaps you do have to change a few laws. And either way, a gun in the hands of a good law-abiding citizen or a criminal, it's still a dangerous weapon. So, is it really so surprising when a person with mental problems walks into a gun shop, buys four guns and goes on a killing spree that people want to change a few laws?
"What you wish for is a fantasy to happen in the real world." I think this very much applies to what you said.
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world fucking champs!!!
I can't help but wonder WHY we are so fucked up in our heads. I take my responsibility here of equally being fucked up (not even with the added chemicals; just ME), fucking up, and possibly doing things to fuck up other people even though I am not intentially trying to do so; it is just them breathing in my poison fumes that my actions create. But enough deep euphorisms......here's my point.
Why is it that we have more than most of the generations before us, more opportunities and material possessions and here we are, doing worse things than (I think--correct me if I am wrong----but I have the faith you will if need be) most of those behind us. I know we can delve into history and get into society that was barbaric and use examples of them to see that we are not really such a mess, but I am referring to civilized civilations not like way back into time but just maybe like 50 years ago until now for a time marker so to speak.
Is it that in seeking our freedoms we broke down barriers but also rules for us to behave within certain criteras that would promote mental stabilities? Have we embraced the whole psychological babying that went on maybe like 17 years ago when I had my first child and people were telling THEIR kids fucked up things like, "how do you feel about not listening?" ( as the kids say, WTF?)? We went from when I was a kid and kids didn't really have rights or feelings to a time when feelings were about everything and everywhere.
But even saying this I am confused; because I am not sure if it is the reasons that I am saying there or if it is something else......
I am so lost now just reading my own post..........what do you think guys? Where does the whole responsibilty lie? I know it is within ourselves but where within ourselves?
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
People have always been fucked up. I mean there are people alive who witnessed the Holocaust, there are black people in the US whose family members were murdered just because they were black... No need to go back to Mediæval times. Perhaps we are doing worse, though. But then again, perhaps it's just a different setting. Perhaps it's more real that the horrors in the history books because it's happening us.
I don't know. I think I struggle with the same questions, though. It's hard to figure out what the cause is, what pushes these people over the edge. There are probably a myriad of reasons.
It's an American phenomenon, though. And my guess is the "American Way" is definitely also a reason. The illusion of freedom has created a free life, a free world in which extremes thrive.
naděje umírá poslední
ok i got banned for my last comments.. which i dont completely comprehend as the reason given was 'trolling'.. which is strange as i've posted on practically every gun thread thats ever been on this forum
basically i am aghast at which the rate of shootings happen in the states compared to other developed nations.. its wholly repugnant... but my comment that i got banned for was no less or no more inflammatory than some of the pro-gun posts i read on here.. my comment was me in the last throws of despair and i have no sympathy for a COUNTRY (not the actual victims and their families) that refuses to intelligently look at what might be the root cause of these school shootings (amongst other daily occurences)... and yet some people come back onto here and post that all teachers should be able to carry weapons... and thats just insane!!?
if pro-gun people use the mantra of "guns dont kill people, people kill people" then i'll use the old one of "you cant fight fire with fire"... both are equally idiotic but there you go
so... i apologise if i caused offence but i feel its a subjective that should be faced and by provoking reactions maybe people can be intelligent about the topic of gun control..
i watched a movie last night and it was set in 1890 in the Wild West of America... now i can understand the right to bear arms back in the day of castle rustling, forced conscription, slavery, land repossession, etc etc but for fucks sake people still drove around in wooden stagecoaches back then... the US needs to realise their gun laws are the laughing stock of the world... I have a relative in Virginia who says even after the Virginia Tech shootings in which approx 30 died (i dont know the exact figure due to the sheer amount of deaths that happen each school curriculum) that there is no law in place to stop his ex-military trained son who has a history of mental illnesses going to a touring gun show and buying guns... this is his words and i dont know if thats 100% true, but if it is then it's an insult to the families of the dead... just as the comments of some on here are an insult to the families of the dead of the Illinois shooting.
I agree with everything you said.
naděje umírá poslední
Guns are banned in england.
How often do you hear about shootings in english schools?
I rest my case.
"Behave like rock stars - not like the President." (live - Noblesville, IN - 8/17/98)
--Ed
"Yeah, I was gonna learn to play it (Breath) but somebody slipped me a bottle of viagra and was busy doing something else six times last night" (live - New York, NY - 9/10/98)
--Ed
ironic coming from someone who lives in a country that gave us the Patriot Act.
but you didnt answer his point
Guns are banned in england.
How often do you hear about shootings in english schools?
I rest my case.
Regarding people with mental illness, I feel like we have to remember that this is a larger group than we might like to think. Something like 1/4-1/3 of Americans could be considered mentally ill. These are our friends and loved ones - and probably ourselves. Did you have post-partum depression? Boom! You're mentally ill! Depressed that you're turning 40? Boom! You're mentally ill! You're a scary, dangerous person and should never own a gun. :rolleyes: Or at least that's what it will come down to if we start vilifying anyone and everyone who's ever been diagnosed with any kind of mental illness. The vast majority of people who could be considered mentally ill are perfectly harmless and are upstanding citizens like you and me. It's extremely unfortunate that some of them aren't, but those people don't represent the population.
I strongly believe that if we want to solve the problem of school shootings and such things, we need better access to mental health care. There was a case here in Albuquerque a couple of years ago where a schizophrenic man went on a shooting rampage across town and killed 5 people. What a horrible, horrible event! But the thing is, this man and his family tried NUMEROUS times to get him help before this happened, but to no avail. I can understand those posters from other countries asking, "Why is the U.S. not taking care of its gun problem?" But I think they should also be asking, "Why is the U.S. not taking care of its mentally ill?"
With regard to criminals, my humble opinion is that one of the reasons we have so much crime is BECAUSE we have - or at least want - so much more than in the past. We live in a consumer culture that drives into everyone's heads that we must have MORE, MORE, MORE. Everyone else has more. We need more too. If we don't have more we won't fit in to society, no one will like us, we'll be ugly and unworthy of love. (And we wonder why so many people are depressed.) So we feel the need to have more but frequently don't feel that the system provides us with a legal means to get it, and since we don't have it we're not part of the group anyway. We create a society which marginalizes huge populations of people and then we expect them to play by the rules of that society. If you don't feel part of the group, and you don't feel that you can ever get ahead by following that group's rules, why would you follow them? Think of the social contract. We give up certain liberties and agree to follow laws so we can receive the protection of those laws as part of the society. But if (we feel like) we're not part of the society and the laws don't benefit us, why would we follow them? Why would we respect that society? Certainly I don't agree with this way of thinking and maybe I'm not making any sense, but I feel like this has something to do with at least some of the crime we see today. And I think that's why programs that reach out to "at-risk" (i.e marginalized) youth and give them a sense of pride and ownership in their communities are successful in keeping many kids from becoming criminals.
Of course, I also think the problems of depression, marginalization, criminal activity, consumerism, poverty, etc. are often intertwined. (How many of these kids who committed the crime of shooting their classmates did so because they were depressed because they felt marginalized and isolated from that very community of classmates?) So go ahead and call me crazy.
P.S.
What is trolling?
i dont actually know, so i'm interested in finding out
you've heard a lot of absolute shit then.. you heard about 1 cop (not cops plural) who shot 1 person (not people) who he believed to be a suicide bomber boarding a subway train only a few weeks after a suicide bombing attempt... stop diverting the attention away from the fact that in the US there has been 4 school shootings in the past 7 days.. you pointing out that the 'cops' (police dont carry guns here, only specially trained firearms officers who are called to an incident) killing 'innocent people' (sic) in England from August 06 only highlights the ignorance of the people of America when it comes to both the world around them and their own societal problems.
In 2005/06 there were 766 offences initially recorded as homicide by the police in England and Wales (including the 52 victims of the 7 July 2005 London bombings),[17] a rate of 1.4 per 100,000 of population. Only 50 (6.6%) were committed with firearms, one being with an air weapon.[18] The homicide rate for London was 2.4 per 100,000 in the same year (1.7 when excluding the 7 July bombings).[19]
By comparison, 5.5 murders per 100,000 of population were reported by police in the United States in 2000, of which 70% involved the use of firearms.[20] New York City, with a population size similar to London (over 8 million residents), reported 6.9 murders per 100,000 people in 2004.[21]
The rise in UK gun crime is a long term trend that is apparently unaffected by the state of UK firearms legislation. [22] Before the 1997 ban, handguns were only held by 0.1% of the population,[23] and while the number of crimes involving firearms in England and Wales increased from 13,874 in 1998/99 to 24,070 in 2002/03, they remained relatively static at 24,094 in 2003/04, and have since fallen to 21,521 in 2005/06. The latter includes 3,275 crimes involving imitation firearms and 10,437 involving air weapons, compared to 566 and 8,665 respectively in 1998/99.[24] Only those "firearms" positively identified as being imitations or air weapons (e.g. by being recovered by the police or by being fired) are classed as such, so the actual numbers are likely to be significantly higher. In 2005/06, 8,978 of the total of 21,521 firearms crimes (42%) were for criminal damage.[25]
Since 1998, the number of people injured by firearms in England and Wales increased by 110%,[26] from 2,378 in 1998/99 to 5,001 in 2005/06. "Injury" in this context means by the use of the gun as a blunt instrument or as a threat, or by being shot. In 2005/06, 87% of such injuries were defined as "slight," which includes the use of firearms as a threat only. The number of homicides committed with firearms has remained between a range of 46 and 97 for the past decade, standing at 50 in 2005/06 (a fall from 75 the previous year). Between 1998/99 and 2005/06, there have been only two fatal shootings of police officers in England and Wales. Over the same period there were 107 non-fatal shootings of police officers - an average of just 9.7 per year.[27]
50 gun deaths per year out of a country with 65 million people in it..
by comparison the US has some 35000 with a population of some 300million.
so allowing for having 5 times the population you should have around 250 gun deaths per year... but wait... here's the fucking hilarious part!!! you guys have 35000!!!!! not 250??!?!
how about that.
Peter Power, Managing Director of Visor Consultants, a private firm on contract to the London Metropolitan Police, described in a BBC interview how he had organized and conducted the anti-terror drill, on behalf of an unnamed business client.
The fictional scenario was based on simultaneous bombs going off at exactly the same time at the underground stations where the real attacks were occurring:
POWER: At half past nine this morning we were actually running an exercise for a company of over a thousand people in London based on simultaneous bombs going off precisely at the railway stations where it happened this morning, so I still have the hairs on the back of my neck standing up right now.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20050808&articleId=821
HOST: To get this quite straight, you were running an exercise to see how you would cope with this and it happened while you were running the exercise?
POWER: Precisely, and it was about half past nine this morning, we planned this for a company and for obvious reasons I don't want to reveal their name but they're listening and they'll know it. And we had a room full of crisis managers for the first time they'd met and so within five minutes we made a pretty rapid decision that this is the real one and so we went through the correct drills of activating crisis management procedures to jump from slow time to quick time thinking and so on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7bAC8gN-bU
don't care and it needs its own thread.. this is about gun deaths and gun control... what some conspiracy theorist gets up to in his own time i couldnt give a gorillas cock about.
you've ignored every pertinent and legitimate stat i've posted.. why should i even entertain the 7/7 bombings question?
50 gun deaths per year out of a country with 65 million people in it..
by comparison the US has some 35000 with a population of some 300million.
so allowing for having 5 times the population you should have around 250 gun deaths per year... but wait... here's the fucking hilarious part!!! you guys have 35000!!!!! not 250??!?!
how about that.
huh?
you posted about cops shooting innocent people.. how is this even relevant to the actual thread?
no you didnt!
and now i will re-quote you.
3rd post in you eventually post stats which magically highlight the vast difference between gun relate deaths in the US and in England.. thanks for that
then completely irrelevant to the actual topic:-
then some comedy:-
i dont live in England.. and i'll attack whomever i see fit.