Mircales Exposed!

AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
edited December 2006 in A Moving Train
Despite the traditional wording used in English texts of Exodus, the 'Red Sea' is not actually referred to in the Hebrew text. The Hebrew refers to 'Yam suph', Sea of Reeds or Reed Sea, which was a significantly smaller, marshy body of swampwater to the north of the Red Sea. This suggests a less traumatic event than is traditionally envisioned. If the Jewish people were chased through the Sea of Reeds, the Egyptians could have either lost track of them through the swamp or, as the second link below suggests, their chariots or horses could have been bogged down in the mud.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passage_of_the_Red_Sea

Anyone else have one?
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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Shiiit! I hate when I make a typo in the Thread Title.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    THE 'HOLY' LIGHT OF JERUSALEM
    Our research pointed in the direction of use of some self-igniting material, that ignites spontaneously when in contact with the air. An appropriate candidate for such use would appear to be white phosphorus.

    But how could this spontaneous ignition be delayed in order to take place in the appropriate time? Simply, if phosphorus is dissolved in an appropriate organic solvent, self-ignition is delayed, until the solvent has almost completely evaporated. Repeated experiments showed that the ignition can be delayed for half an hour or more, depending on density of the solution and the solvent employed.

    We repeatedly demonstrated the technique on live satellite TV in the presence of representatives of the Eastern orthodox Church, igniting spontaneously a number of candles, to their amazement.
    http://www.greatlie.com/en/
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    I proceeded to test the feasibility of this hypothesis, and constructed a prototype of such a �bush that burned with fire but was not consumed� in scale, using materials and techniques available at the time of the biblical events. I think it is worthwhile to present here the simple method employed! Starting from the branch of a bush with an appropriate tree-like shape, I first dipped the �bush� in molten wax.[4] When that became solid, I immersed the bush successively several times in appropriate clay (mud) to produce a solid clay coating, preserving the general tree-like shape of the structure. While the clay was still wet, small holes were pierced in various points of the branches that would ultimately serve as outlets for the gas.

    When the �bush� was dry, it was placed in a simple fire, where the wax melted and flowed out of the bush from the base, leaving an internal passage for the gas rising from the base of the �bush� to the exit vents (holes) on the branches. Finally I connected the base of the construction to an input of natural flammable gas (propane used for cooking) with the final result:http://www.greatlie.com/en/
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    As noted above, some science writers and Bible researchers have suggested that the plagues were passed-down accounts of ordinary natural disasters, and not supernatural miracles. Natural explanations have been suggested for most of the phenomena:

    (plague 1—water turned into blood, fish died)
    The redness in the Nile could have actually been pollution caused by volcanic activity, which, due to the color of Nile silt, could make the Nile turn blood red, and would also render it undrinkable. Heavy rains in the red-soiled area of Lake Victoria could have caused reddened water to wash downstream.
    Alternatively, a red toxic algal bloom (red tide) could have produced large quantities of toxins that would kill fish.
    Earthquakes could have caused an limnic eruption the same way it happened at Lake Nyos.

    (plague 2—frogs) Any blight on the water that killed fish also would have caused frogs to leave the river and, probably, die.

    (plagues 3 and 4—biting insects and flies) The lack of frogs in the river would have let insect populations, normally kept in check by the frogs, increase massively.

    (plagues 5 and 6— livestock disease and boils) There are biting flies in the region which transmit livestock diseases; a sudden increase in their number could spark epidemics.

    (plague 7—hail) Volcanic activity not only brings with it ash, but brimstone, and also alters the weather system, occasionally producing hail. Hail could also have occurred as a completely independent natural weather event.

    (plague 8—locusts) The weight of hail will destroy most crops, leaving several insects and other animals without a normal food source. The remaining crops therefore would become targeted heavily, and thus be destroyed by swarms of locusts which would otherwise be distributed rather thinly. Or the locusts could have increased due to a lack of predators. Even without these explanations, swarms of locusts are not uncommon today.

    (plague 9—darkness) There could be several causes for unusual darkness: a solar eclipse, a sandstorm, volcanic ash, or simply swarms of locusts large enough to block out the sun.

    (plague 10—death of the firstborn)
    If the last plague indeed selectively tended to affect the firstborn, it could be due to food polluted during the time of darkness, either by locusts or by the black mold Cladosporium. When people emerged after the darkness, the firstborn would be given priority, as was usual, and would consequently be more likely to be affected by any toxin or disease carried by the food.

    The word we know as "firstborn" may have meant the higher social class rather than literally the eldest sons, but the same argument applies.

    In the 2006 documentary Exodus Decoded, Jewish Canadian filmmaker Simcha Jacobovici hypothesised the selectiveness of the tenth plague was under the circumstances similar to the 1986 disaster of Lake Nyos that is related to geological activities that caused the previous plagues in a related chain of events. The hypothesis was that the plagues took place shortly after the eruption of Thera (now known as Santorini), which is thought to have happened some time between 1450 BCE and 1650 BCE. The eruption sets off a chain of events resulting in the plagues and eventually the killing of the first born. Jacobovici suggests that the first borns in ancient Egypt had the privilege to sleep close to the floor while other children slept on higher ground or even on roofs. Like in Lake Nyos, when carbon dioxide or other toxic gases escape the surface tension of a nearby waterbody either due to geological activity or over satuation, the gas being heavier than air, "flooded" the nearby area displacing oxygen and killing those who were in its path. Jewish households escaped the fate because they were told to observe their first Passover rituals.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Plagues#Natural_explanations
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • kenny olavkenny olav Posts: 3,319
    I saw all this on the Discovery Channel (or maybe History Channel?). Well... red sea, reed sea... it was close... a clerical error... it happens all the time...
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Kenny Olav wrote:
    I saw all this on the Discovery Channel (or maybe History Channel?). Well... red sea, reed sea... it was close... a clerical error... it happens all the time...

    And think, if the writer were dyslexic? It may very well have been the Deer Sea.

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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    gue_barium wrote:
    And think, if the writer were dyslexic? It may very well have been the Deer Sea.

    Or, maybe the translators of the Bible didn't know it, but had come across a spiritual letter, written by Moses that, in fact, says "Dear Sea". Moses was inquiring about Ten Club membership. Thus, the 10 "commandments" really meant 10 "club".

    Holy Moses!

    We've got a whole new ballgame, folks.

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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    God transcends time, you know. Cornifer wouldn't argue that. It's possible.

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  • dkst0426dkst0426 Posts: 523
    Uhm......anyone who does a serious study of the Old Testament can tell you that it was in fact the Reed Sea the Israelites crossed, so that's not exactly news.

    The scientific debunking of the miracles does not change the essence of their impact--to dwell on that kinda misses the point. Besides, the Old and New Testaments are verified through various ancient historical sources, including non-Christian historians, most notably Plutarch.

    It all depends on whom you want to believe.

    Just out of curiosity, and in the name of balance, how much effort are you going to put into debunking other religions, like Islam, Hinduism, Wicca, etc. etc.?
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    dkst0426 wrote:
    Uhm......anyone who does a serious study of the Old Testament can tell you that it was in fact the Reed Sea the Israelites crossed, so that's not exactly news.

    The scientific debunking of the miracles does not change the essence of their impact--to dwell on that kinda misses the point.

    Perhaps.

    What is the impact?

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  • dkst0426dkst0426 Posts: 523
    In the case of the story of the Exodus, the impact is......well, it's the Exodus. The question of where the Israelites crossed is irrelevant insofar as the key is why they were crossing in the first place, and what happened from that point on.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    dkst0426 wrote:
    Just out of curiosity, and in the name of balance, how much effort are you going to put into debunking other religions, like Islam, Hinduism, Wicca, etc. etc.?

    Islam is based on the same Judeo-Christian scriptures.

    Open up the Qu'ran and the first story is that of Abraham.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    dkst0426 wrote:
    In the case of the story of the Exodus, the impact is......well, it's the Exodus. The question of where the Israelites crossed is irrelevant insofar as the key is why they were crossing in the first place, and what happened from that point on.

    It's not irrelevant, if there are no Miracles, then there is no divine intervention. Without divine intervention, there is no God.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • dkst0426dkst0426 Posts: 523
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Islam is based on the same Judeo-Christian scriptures.

    Open up the Qu'ran and the first story is that of Abraham.
    What about other religions?

    I wonder what Quran students and scholars would think of that first assertion.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    dkst0426 wrote:
    What about other religions?

    I wonder what Quran students and scholars would think of that first assertion.

    What? Like Hindus feeding milk to statues? Or drinking sewage water because it tastes different than normal water?

    I don't see any miracles there.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Islam is based on the same Judeo-Christian scriptures.

    Open up the Qu'ran and the first story is that of Abraham.

    From my understanding now Sea precedes Abraham in the geneology of Biblical descendancy. Some people interpret this as evolution disguised, i.e.; a tricky way of saying we mammals originated from the ocean, however, most scholars do agree on one thing: Eve wasn't Dama.

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  • dkst0426dkst0426 Posts: 523
    Ahnimus wrote:
    It's not irrelevant, if there are no Miracles, then there is no divine intervention. Without divine intervention, there is no God.

    Just because something can be scientifically explained does not make it any less a demonstration of divine intervention. Even IF it were a chance physical happening, what are the odds of whatever explanation is put forth happening? And what are the odds of the occasions you've detailed happening at those exact moments, with the events surrounding them all conspiring to happen at the same time?
  • dkst0426dkst0426 Posts: 523
    Ahnimus wrote:
    What? Like Hindus feeding milk to statues? Or drinking sewage water because it tastes different than normal water?

    I don't see any miracles there.
    Again--the point isn't the occurrence of said miracles. The point is the essence of the miracles, which you yourself assert as signs of divine intervention. Gonna break down such signs in other religions as well, or are you merely going to confirm that this is all just symptomatic of an agenda you have against one specific religion, and you are starting topics to slap the face of its believers?
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    dkst0426 wrote:
    Just because something can be scientifically explained does not make it any less a demonstration of divine intervention. Even IF it were a chance physical happening, what are the odds of whatever explanation is put forth happening? And what are the odds of the occasions you've detailed happening at those exact moments, with the events surrounding them all conspiring to happen at the same time?

    I see where you're coming from. It's sort of the Mircaleous philosophy brought down with the 14th century highlanders of Scotland. They were a good, Christian people. They won Scotland's independence.

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  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    dkst0426 wrote:
    I wonder what Quran students and scholars would think of that first assertion.
    I've been told exactly that by Muslims.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    and what are the odds of a person overcoming not one but numerous serious mental illnesses? It can be done, but it happens so rarely, and when it happens to one's self, it is purely miraculous. Especially when one has felt the divine intervention actively. Ahnimus, you blatantly discount what you cannot see or prove so it's like you don't have the "miracle" lens to allow you to comprehend miracles in life. If this were field of dreams, you would not see the baseball players. Life is made up of two kinds--those who do see the baseball players and those who don't. I LOVE the baseball players!
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    dkst0426 wrote:
    Just because something can be scientifically explained does not make it any less a demonstration of divine intervention. Even IF it were a chance physical happening, what are the odds of whatever explanation is put forth happening? And what are the odds of the occasions you've detailed happening at those exact moments, with the events surrounding them all conspiring to happen at the same time?

    What are the odds of us two people having this conversation?

    Well, let's see...

    There are approximately 7 billion people in the world.

    There are approximately 65 million registered internet domains.

    There are approximately 801 million people with internet access.

    What do you think the odds are?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • dkst0426dkst0426 Posts: 523
    Ahnimus wrote:
    What are the odds of us two people having this conversation?

    Well, let's see...

    There are approximately 7 billion people in the world.

    There are approximately 65 million registered internet domains.

    There are approximately 801 million people with internet access.

    What do you think the odds are?

    Wait just a minute.

    You're using empirical methodology and applying that to a metaphysical discussion?

    If you have issues with the faith/the faithful, that's one thing, and I can understand that, because believers have those issues too. However, please don't insult my or anyone else's intelligence like that. It's so clear what you're trying to do, and masking it in all the eager-to-disprove-Scripture lingo you want isn't going to hide it.

    I truly and sincerely am sorry that I cannot express myself more graciously, but the truth of the matter is that as a believer, I don't have too much patience for this kind of attempts at disproving my faith and more often than not going on to mocking it. If this utter contempt for the Christian faith you have is a result of some horrendously negative experience with someone/some people who claimed to be believers, I hurt for you and apologize on account of trying to extend Christ's grace as I/we have been called to.

    All I can do is pray for you.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    dkst0426 wrote:

    Dude, they walked across a grassy marsh, there is no miracle.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    dkst0426 wrote:
    Wait just a minute.

    You're using empirical methodology and applying that to a metaphysical discussion?

    I'm not discussing metaphysics, walking across a grassy marsh isn't metaphysical.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    angelica wrote:
    and what are the odds of a person overcoming not one but numerous serious mental illnesses? It can be done, but it happens so rarely, and when it happens to one's self, it is purely miraculous. Especially when one has felt the divine intervention actively. Ahnimus, you blatantly discount what you cannot see or prove so it's like you don't have the "miracle" lens to allow you to comprehend miracles in life. If this were field of dreams, you would not see the baseball players. Life is made up of two kinds--those who do see the baseball players and those who don't. I LOVE the baseball players!

    You're assuming Ahnimus has discounted those things he's seen in his life that are somewhat unexplainable, mysterious. We all have those. Sometimes, probably most times, it's best to keep those sort of things to oneself. Maybe that's why they are there in the first place.

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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    angelica wrote:
    and what are the odds of a person overcoming not one but numerous serious mental illnesses? It can be done, but it happens so rarely, and when it happens to one's self, it is purely miraculous. Especially when one has felt the divine intervention actively. Ahnimus, you blatantly discount what you cannot see or prove so it's like you don't have the "miracle" lens to allow you to comprehend miracles in life. If this were field of dreams, you would not see the baseball players. Life is made up of two kinds--those who do see the baseball players and those who don't. I LOVE the baseball players!

    That's a crock!
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    gue_barium wrote:
    You're assuming Ahnimus has discounted those things he's seen in his life that are somewhat unexplainable, mysterious. We all have those. Sometimes, probably most times, it's best to keep those sort of things to oneself. Maybe that's why they are there in the first place.
    I'll just let you decide what you keep to yourself, and I'll decide for myself.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    That's a crock!
    Here we go again. :rolleyes: ;)
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
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