Seems to me a lot of Americans are only against the war because its not going well

Matt8townsend

farfromglorified wrote:

Hehe....be careful with this logic.

If those who pull the triggers are victims of their masters, the masters are just victims of their masters. You're creating an endless cycle wherein no one is responsible for their choices.

I will agree that those who villify anyone who participates in a war as a murderer oversimplifies a complex issue. But to pretend that people are not responsible for their choices precludes the villification of anyone.

Their political masters are victims of nothing but their own twisted ideologies.

And I doubt they will ever be held to account for their crimes (much like a certain Mr pinochet and other dictators to whom they and their ilk were willing accomplises).

Soldiers who wantonly slaughter innocent civilians are of course responsible for doing so, but to label all marines 'murderers' is ridiculous.

farfromglorified

angelica wrote:

Taking lives with premeditation is what it is.

Very much so, yes.

There are all kinds of justifications that just cannot effectively be made. Again, I agree, though, that any level of killing, from those who support killing from their armchairs to those who carry out the deeds themselves carries with it the precise and specific accountability for the exact output.

Exactly.

Matt8townsend

aoife wrote:

I didnt invent the english language , the truth is you feel uncomfortable viewing these people as murderers because it would mean that anyone is capable of murder, just because you dont like the word and its connotations doesnt stop it from being true. If you kill somebody you are a murderer. Comparing the invasion of Iraq to the fight against the Nazis is just completely laughable, are you indirectly saying that the invasion of Iraq was justified? Is it that you disagree that they murdered people or do you just not like that i said it because it forced you to think about it. It ultimately is the fault of Bush and Blair but the people who implemented their will by invading and bombing Iraq cannot be free from blame, they arent idiots they are real humans with consciences and should have enough integrity to say no .whatever the price may be it can be nothing compared with having to live with the fact that you are a murderer for the rest of your life. If there was no army there could be no war no matter how many leaders declared it

I'm not comparing it or justifying the war on Iraq. I thought I side stepped that rather obvious accusation by explicity stating my opposition to it.

My point is would you call the American soldiers who took place in the D Day landings murderers? By your rationale you should. But the word dosn't really fit right does it?

farfromglorified

Matt8townsend wrote:

Their political masters are victims of nothing but their own twisted ideologies.

Really? Cannot the same case be made for your other "victims"??? You refer to one as "conditioned" to absolve them of their responsibility. Are not these political masters also "conditioned"?

And I doubt they will ever be held to account for their crimes (much like a certain Mr pinochet and other dictators to whom they and their ilk were willing accomplises).

You're probably right there. Nor will the American public be held to account for making their crimes possible.

Soldiers who wantonly slaughter innocent civilians are of course responsible for doing so, but to label all marines 'murderers' is ridiculous.

With the loaded connotations fit for the serial killer, yes. Within the literal confines, not really.

If you kill a man, you are a murderer. Whether that death happened in brutal aggression or desperate defense, you have still taken a life. Taking a life, in some circumstances, is justifiable. However, the man who pulls a trigger cannot absolve himself of his responsibility to those justifications. In short, "someone told me to" cannot justify killing.

hippiemom

aoife wrote:

I didnt invent the english language , the truth is you feel uncomfortable viewing these people as murderers because it would mean that anyone is capable of murder, just because you dont like the word and its connotations doesnt stop it from being true. If you kill somebody you are a murderer. Comparing the invasion of Iraq to the fight against the Nazis is just completely laughable, are you indirectly saying that the invasion of Iraq was justified? Is it that you disagree that they murdered people or do you just not like that i said it because it forced you to think about it. It ultimately is the fault of Bush and Blair but the people who implemented their will by invading and bombing Iraq cannot be free from blame, they arent idiots they are real humans with consciences and should have enough integrity to say no .whatever the price may be it can be nothing compared with having to live with the fact that you are a murderer for the rest of your life. If there was no army there could be no war no matter how many leaders declared it

Killing someone does not necessarily make you a murderer. Murder is defined as unlawfully killing someone. If you kill in justifiable self-defense, you are not a murderer. If you are the executioner for a state where the death penalty is legal, you are not a murderer. If you are engaged in a war that is being fought in accordance with international law, you are not a murderer.

I agree with just about everything else you've posted on this thread, and I think the war in Iraq blatantly violates international law. I also think that the administration violated U.S. law in getting us into it. So I can't dispute that what's going on over there is indeed murder. I just wanted to clear up the definition.

Matt8townsend

aoife wrote:

I didnt invent the english language , the truth is you feel uncomfortable viewing these people as murderers because it would mean that anyone is capable of murder, just because you dont like the word and its connotations doesnt stop it from being true. If you kill somebody you are a murderer. Comparing the invasion of Iraq to the fight against the Nazis is just completely laughable, are you indirectly saying that the invasion of Iraq was justified? Is it that you disagree that they murdered people or do you just not like that i said it because it forced you to think about it. It ultimately is the fault of Bush and Blair but the people who implemented their will by invading and bombing Iraq cannot be free from blame, they arent idiots they are real humans with consciences and should have enough integrity to say no .whatever the price may be it can be nothing compared with having to live with the fact that you are a murderer for the rest of your life. If there was no army there could be no war no matter how many leaders declared it

And by the way I'd happily agree that the American marines are murderers long before I'd agree that they are'nt idiots.

RockinInCanada

Seen a little theme in this thread....some trying to compare WW2 to Iraq....give me a break...not even closely related those that try to think this are trying there hardest to try to justify this Iraqi cause as noble IMHO...when I choose to define it as cowardly...not the soldiers being cowards....the people running the show being cowards.....

Matt8townsend

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

Seen a little theme in this thread....some trying to compare WW2 to Iraq....give me a break...not even closely related those that try to think this are trying there hardest to try to justify this Iraqi cause as noble IMHO...when I choose to define it as cowardly...not the soldiers being cowards....the people running the show being cowards.....

Did IQ's on this board just drop 50 points?

I invoke the Allies in WW2 analogy precisely because it was a completely justified war where as Iraq isn't.

And was thereby wondering whether the earlier posters definiton of a murderer as anyone who takes a human life would extend to those who participated in the entirely justifiable and necessary D Day landings.

farfromglorified

Matt8townsend wrote:

And was thereby wondering whether the earlier posters definiton of a murderer as anyone who takes a human life would extend to those who participated in the entirely justifiable and necessary D Day landings.

Personally, I think those people are "murderers", just in the sense that they took life. It doesn't mean that what they did was unjustifiable though.

Look, the term "murder" is somewhat inappropriate for any state-sanctioned killing since "murder" is more a legal term than anything else.

Regarldess, both troops in Iraq and troops on D-Day took life. And they take life in situations that are sometimes warranted and sometimes unwarranted. The context of an entire war does not justify all the deaths and killings that happen in that war. Each individual killing is either right or wrong, judged by the circumstances in which it happens.

angelica

farfromglorified wrote:

Matt8townsend wrote:

Their political masters are victims of nothing but their own twisted ideologies.

Really? Cannot the same case be made for your other "victims"??? You refer to one as "conditioned" to absolve them of their responsibility. Are not these political masters also "conditioned"?

farfromglorified wrote:

Matt8townsend wrote:

And I doubt they will ever be held to account for their crimes (much like a certain Mr pinochet and other dictators to whom they and their ilk were willing accomplises).

You're probably right there. Nor will the American public be held to account for making their crimes possible.

farfromglorified wrote:

Matt8townsend wrote:

Soldiers who wantonly slaughter innocent civilians are of course responsible for doing so, but to label all marines 'murderers' is ridiculous.

With the loaded connotations fit for the serial killer, yes. Within the literal confines, not really.

If you kill a man, you are a murderer. Whether that death happened in brutal aggression or desperate defense, you have still taken a life. Taking a life, in some circumstances, is justifiable. However, the man who pulls a trigger cannot absolve himself of his responsibility to those justifications. In short, "someone told me to" cannot justify killing.

Bravo, farfromglorified.

Cosmo

NCfan wrote:

Saddam was no Hitler or Stalin to be sure, but he is easily one of the most vile and wicked heads of state of the last century.

American soldiers have already been convicted of murder, rape and torture and are serving their sentences as we speak...

On the international outcry, I realize that Saddam's government was condemed. My point was that in comparison to the protesting against the US, versus the protesting towards Saddam Hussien - America was condemend FAR worse than Saddam ever was. COrrect me if I'm wrong but I never saw half a million people walk through the streets of London or New York shouting "World's biggest terrorists" about Saddam... that was my only point there.

...
Do you know why you believe Saddam Hussein was such a brutal dictator and needed to be taken out? Because you were TOLD that he was a brutal dictator and needed to be taken out. You didn't come up with that on your own... I know it and you know it and here's why:
When these so-called heinous acts occurred... it was with the blessings of your country. These atrocities occurred in the 1980s... under the patron saint of your political beliefs watch... Ronald Reagan.
why are you so worked up about these murders 20 years down the road? Why weren't you protesting about these mass murders 20 years ago? I'll tell you why... you were probably a little kid and didn't give a shit about those Iraqis then... and you wouldn't give a shit about those same iraqis now... if we weren't so deeply intrenched in this mess. You are using the deaths of these people to justify your support for this war and the actions of our President. Don't use the deaths of those people as justification for your political arguement... that is about as disrepectful as using the deaths that occurred on September 11, 2001 to justify your arguement. It does not honor them... it spits on them.
So, come up with your own opinion and get back to me on this one. You cannot uphold your hatred for Saddam Hussein without including his partners in these crimes... the U.S. Administration of Ronald Reagan and his advisors... including Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld. We supplied the weapons used and urged him to be the stop-gap between secular nations like Iraq and fundamentalist extremist nations like Iran. To enforce that policy by going after all enemies with extreme prejudice.

aoife

LikeAnOcean wrote:

In February of '03 I was a Bush supporter. In March of '03 I wasn't.. does that help explain my opinion of the situation? It has NOTHING to do with how bad the war is going.

i didnt write this thread about YOU, i never even heard of you

aoife

Matt8townsend wrote:

I'm not comparing it or justifying the war on Iraq. I thought I side stepped that rather obvious accusation by explicity stating my opposition to it.

My point is would you call the American soldiers who took place in the D Day landings murderers? By your rationale you should. But the word dosn't really fit right does it?

I dont care if it fits or not, people who kill people are murderers, its not debatable its just not, its a word for people who kill people whether they be justified or not(in this case they arent), you still murdered. i dont understand the confusion.

cincybearcat

aoife wrote:

Im not defining intelligent as academic or educated, im talking about people who dont succumb to propaganda and can see things for what they are, can recognise the hypocrisy. Anyone in favour of such a war is either stupid or evil

Oh I know how you were defining it...you're defining it based on agree with your beliefs.

aoife

hippiemom wrote:

Killing someone does not necessarily make you a murderer. Murder is defined as unlawfully killing someone. If you kill in justifiable self-defense, you are not a murderer. If you are the executioner for a state where the death penalty is legal, you are not a murderer. If you are engaged in a war that is being fought in accordance with international law, you are not a murderer.

I.

i Know what you are saying but what you are pointing out is in fact a very dangerous definition. lawful killing? i mean apart from in an act of self defence what is lawful killing? what if tommorrow a law was passed which said that i dunno illegitimate children were to be killed. Thats obviously completely wrong but your saying that under law its not murder, we shouldnt confuse the law as the upholder of moral values because often times it isnt. We all know whats right and whats wrong we dont need a law to tell us. The invasion of Iraq wasnt in accordance with international law it was deemed illegal by the UN

aoife

cincybearcat wrote:

Oh I know how you were defining it...you're defining it based on agree with your beliefs.

Exactly and in this scenario my beliefs are right, its not a matter of opinion its a fact that i am right, thats all there is to it

dg1979us

aoife wrote:

I dont care if it fits or not, people who kill people are murderers, its not debatable its just not, its a word for people who kill people whether they be justified or not(in this case they arent), you still murdered. i dont understand the confusion.

It is debateable. You are confusing murderer with killer. They dont have the same meaning. Murder is something specifically against the law. If you kill someone within the means of the law, you are not a murderer.

jeffbr

aoife wrote:

Exactly and in this scenario my beliefs are right, its not a matter of opinion its a fact that i am right, thats all there is to it

Jesus Christ. I think this thread is 8 pages long because you keep giving words non-standard meanings. So sure. Make up your own definitions for all of the words you use, and you'll always get to be right about everything.

Cosmo

jeffbr wrote:

Jesus Christ. I think this thread is 8 pages long because you keep giving words non-standard meanings. So sure. Make up your own definitions for all of the words you use, and you'll always get to be right about everything.

...
Well to me... Jesus Christ means body of Christ.... which means daily bread... which means sandwhich... which means Subway... therefore, Jesus Christ means an Italian BMT with the works... hold the Mayo.
See y'all after lunch.

aoife

dg1979us wrote:

It is debateable. You are confusing murderer with killer. They dont have the same meaning. Murder is something specifically against the law. If you kill someone within the means of the law, you are not a murderer.

How is an unsanctioned invasion of another country within the law